Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: kjk concours on March 31, 2014, 06:33:31 PM
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Can I just remove the flies, or will that hurt anything. It's a 2008 model no TC.
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Yeah, You can remove them without issues. It wouldn't hurt to get a PCV and a flies out map though. My bike came alive! 8)
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Can I just remove the flies, or will that hurt anything. It's a 2008 model no TC
Like Jimmy says- without traction control you can just remove them with zero negative effect.
UPDATED: PENDING MORE INFO
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I have posted this question and received the opposite answer. If you remove the flies you can't have a flies out map without something to control the ECM. Hence you need a PC or the ECM needs to be flashed.
Am I correct? ???
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I've done nothing to mine yet, but it seems the guys who've dyno'd theirs say it needs to be leaned out anyway. Flies out shouldn't be a negative, except perhaps a bit of abruptness upon whacking the throttle wide open suddenly.
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I have posted this question and received the opposite answer. If you remove the flies you can't have a flies out map without something to control the ECM. Hence you need a PC or the ECM needs to be flashed.
Am I correct? ???
Hmm... I am now questioning my previous answer. Typically people will either flash the ECU (Guhl, for example) to open the flies earlier and remap OR remove the secondary butterflies AND add a PC. I was sure the answer was that it makes no difference... however, if just the secondaries are removed, the computer will not know it, and since it is table based, it might blindly make the fuel adjustments assuming the flies are still there, starving the engine of fuel... unless it is ALSO adjusting the mix based on a manifold vs. an atmospheric pressure sensor.
More info needed.
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From what I understand, the ECU is not feedback based, so it has a loaded map that assumes you have the secondary flies in. It will run too lean if all you do is remove the flies.
After looking at all my options (remove flies, get PCV, find a good map, or get the ECU reflashed), I got my ECU reflashed by Guhl Motors. Very little disassembly required, and it runs great.
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Yes, pull them. PCV will add to the gain, but the flies are closed at lower throttle settings, once you get on the happy grip the flies are open. She runs rich as it is, someone some time back pulled the flies with no PC and he reported nothing negative over a 2 year period... I didn't want to chance it at the time so I got the PCIII, and then the PCV so I could run the Auto tune module.
Is there a gamble? Yes, but in my opinion, it is slight. If you have any concerns? Get a PCV. If not? Run it.
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... unless it is ALSO adjusting the mix based on a manifold vs. an atmospheric pressure sensor.
More info needed.
From what I understand, the ECU is not feedback based, so it has a loaded map that assumes you have the secondary flies in. It will run too lean if all you do is remove the flies.
Just to clarify, the Concours-14 FI ECU uses two fuel maps. At idle, and up to approximately 10% throttle position, the FI ECU uses an IAP (Idle air pressure) map. From 10% throttle position and above, the FI ECU uses a TPS fuel map. There isn't a fixed cut off where the ECU switches from the IAP map to the TPS fuel map, but it is approximately 10% plus/minus.
The throttle body assembly has a MAP sensor that is supplying feedback to the ECU, which the ECU compares with the current atmospheric pressure. So, at low throttle openings, there is a differential pressure that is monitored. Once the throttle is opened past a certain point, and there is no longer a pressure differential, the FI ECU switches to the TPS fuel map.
I expect this is why the boys with the ZX14 throttle body conversions are having some low RPM abruptness or other off-idle issues. The engine is obviously flowing more air, and it is likely confusing the ECU because the IAP map was for 40mm ID TB's, and not 44mm. The PC5 works perfectly for fuel tuning between 10-100% throttle position, but tuning from 0-10% would be a little bit of a moving target for the PC5 to 'correct' as it were.
(PS: I will be installing ZX14 TB's myself before too long, and will be doing a lot of tuning, both with a PC5, and inside my own ECU, so I will post lots of updates as I have them.)
Regarding the secondary flies removal without fuel tuning: It *shouldn't* be a problem, and I thought there were lots of guys that have already done this no? It's not really much different than all of the people that have been installing TRE's on Kawasaki's for years....they open the secondary flies earlier, with no fuel changes. Fuel delivery is still based on TPS, not the secondary fly position. I would still personally prefer to see a PC5 or PCIII installed.
Cheers,
Rem
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After much research I finally took the flies out last new years day (remarkably easy with a good quality screwdriver) and while it does improve the bike somewhat I am really glad I didn't spend the money for a PC or a re-flash. Too much money for too little gain.
I believe the connie runs a little lean out of the factory and removing flies does no harm.
Evert
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What am I missing here? I thought about removing the flies and using a Power Commander, and I thought about getting a Healtech GiPro but then it occurred to me that a Guhl reflash wasn't that much more if any than the first option and possibly twice the cost of a GiPro, but the Guhl reflash is the real deal and everything else fits the description of "just as good as" which is a family joke in my house meaning I was too tight to do it the right way the first time. Maybe Guhl costs more than I think but that seems to be the way to go to me. Why try to reinvent the wheel when someone really experienced and qualified has already done it? Any thoughts on that comment?
Fork
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What am I missing here? I thought about removing the flies and using a Power Commander, and I thought about getting a Healtech GiPro but then it occurred to me that a Guhl reflash wasn't that much more if any than the first option and possibly twice the cost of a GiPro, but the Guhl reflash is the real deal and everything else fits the description of "just as good as" which is a family joke in my house meaning I was too tight to do it the right way the first time. Maybe Guhl costs more than I think but that seems to be the way to go to me. Why try to reinvent the wheel when someone really experienced and qualified has already done it? Any thoughts on that comment?
Fork
Well, I guess it depends on what you want to do. People were removing the secondary flies long before Guhl ever started flashing C14 ECU's. You can remove the flies for free, and buy a Power Commander for $300 bucks, and you're good to go. The good thing with a Power Commander is that the owner of the motorcycle is in control and can make changes or modifications whenever he/she wants to. On top of that, when you sell your bike later on, you can also sell your Power Commander for about 2/3 of what you originally paid for it, and get some of your money back. I always do this;).
The Guhl ECU reflash has its place as well, and is also a very good option. Where it benefits the most is, is in not having to remove the secondary flies...which can be troublesome. I think the Guhl reflash is a fantastic option for the guy that wants a no-fuss, easy solution. Just plug it in, and go. Like a Ronco Rotisserie, just set it, and forget it;).
I'm not going to say that one is better than other...but based on the rider's needs and wants, one option may be better suited than the other.
PS: The Healtech GiPro really does very little other than to open the secondary flies slightly earlier. It wouldn't be doing anything even close to what a Guhl ECU flash does, or a PC5 with flies removed. For what they cost, I guess they're ok.
Cheers,
Rem
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What am I missing here? I thought about removing the flies and using a Power Commander, and I thought about getting a Healtech GiPro but then it occurred to me that a Guhl reflash wasn't that much more if any than the first option and possibly twice the cost of a GiPro, but the Guhl reflash is the real deal and everything else fits the description of "just as good as" which is a family joke in my house meaning I was too tight to do it the right way the first time. Maybe Guhl costs more than I think but that seems to be the way to go to me. Why try to reinvent the wheel when someone really experienced and qualified has already done it? Any thoughts on that comment?
Fork
A PCV also allows you to have multiple maps, a reflash does not offer that.
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Well, just my opinion but 'the real deal' is to remove the secondary 'flies and re-map the air / fuel mixture, which most people do with a PC V. Even better would be to install the optional O2 sensor and mixture control module that piggy- back's onto the PC and make a truly correct air / fuel map for your bike.
Again, my opinion- the secondaries were never needed or even wanted, at least by a lot of us, on the bike in the first place. They are there to basically neuter the bike and give ultimate throttle control to the ECU. The bike not only runs and performs perfectly without them, they get in the way and hobble the bike's performance at low- to- mid range engine speeds.
An ECU re-flash can only approach an actual 'flies removal and so IMO is not the equal of simply removing the 'flies in the first place. I think everyone would have to agree that 'removed from the bike' is the absolute least intrusive secondary 'flies can possibly be :-)
But there are other considerations and this is not really something that can be defined by words such as 'best', 'second best' and so forth. For me, removing the 'flies and adding a Power Commander yielded what I want from the bike which is merely that it run correctly and act like the 1,400 cc modern bike that I bought in the first place. A re-flashed ECU may get close to that condition but will not yield secondary 'flies that are open 100% of the time.
Another consideration is restoration of the bike to stock for sale if that is desirable (a lot of people do this).
So in the end, it really does come down to what you expect out of these changes (re-flash vs. 'flies removed), how much money you want to spend, and how comfortable you are with working on the bike.
Brian
What am I missing here? I thought about removing the flies and using a Power Commander, and I thought about getting a Healtech GiPro but then it occurred to me that a Guhl reflash wasn't that much more if any than the first option and possibly twice the cost of a GiPro, but the Guhl reflash is the real deal and everything else fits the description of "just as good as" which is a family joke in my house meaning I was too tight to do it the right way the first time. Maybe Guhl costs more than I think but that seems to be the way to go to me. Why try to reinvent the wheel when someone really experienced and qualified has already done it? Any thoughts on that comment?
Fork
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That depends on the year of the bike; on the '08 and '09's, that is true. But on the 2010's and later, there is a second 'economy' map that is left behind in a re-flash.
The Gen.1 bikes seem to offer more in the way of color re-flashing options though. At least from the examples we've seen here.... :D
Brian
A PCV also allows you to have multiple maps, a reflash does not offer that.
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The Gen.1 bikes seem to offer more in the way of color re-flashing options though. At least from the examples we've seen here.... :D
Brian
;D :chugbeer:
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After much research I finally took the flies out last new years day (remarkably easy with a good quality screwdriver) and while it does improve the bike somewhat I am really glad I didn't spend the money for a PC or a re-flash. Too much money for too little gain.
All I can say is the change was HUGE to me. And far more bang for the buck compared to most any other performance mod I can think of.
So... things that make you say "hmmm".
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A PCV also allows you to have multiple maps, a reflash does not offer that.
Not completely true. On the 2nd gen, the ECO mode is retained, and that is a completely separate map. Of course, the USER can't just change either map to something else without going through the whole flash procedure (and I am not sure Guhl will even offer the option to flash a custom map or even change the ECO map). For those not wanting to make other major performance changes (full exhaust, tb, intakes, etc), there should be little need for additional maps, however.
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Well, just my opinion but 'the real deal' is to remove the secondary 'flies [...]install the optional O2 sensor and mixture control module that piggy- back's onto the PC and make a truly correct air / fuel map for your bike.
+1. Hands-down, THAT is the best and most correct option. It is a shame the bike doesn't come that way (with an O2 sensor, and maybe even an air mass/flow sensor). But it is a lot of added expense and installation stuff.
An ECU re-flash can only approach an actual 'flies removal and so IMO is not the equal of simply removing the 'flies in the first place. [...] A re-flashed ECU may get close to that condition but will not yield secondary 'flies that are open 100% of the time.
That is not the default of the Guhl flash, but you CAN request the flies to be opened almost immediately if you choose to and he will flash it that way. HOWEVER, there is a slight advantage of keeping the flies opening a little delayed on low throttle to keep a little more tameness. Again, everyone will have their own opinion, but it is interesting that Guhl's opinion is to keep a little flies at the start... and I do trust he knows what he is doing and choosing the best option for the most applications/people.
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Not completely true. On the 2nd gen, the ECO mode is retained, and that is a completely separate map. Of course, the USER can't just change either map to something else without going through the whole flash procedure (and I am not sure Guhl will even offer the option to flash a custom map or even change the ECO map). For those not wanting to make other major performance changes (full exhaust, tb, intakes, etc), there should be little need for additional maps, however.
Yes true. You can store two maps on the pcV and use a simple I/O toggle switch to change between the two.
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Not completely true. On the 2nd gen, the ECO mode is retained, and that is a completely separate map. Of course, the USER can't just change either map to something else without going through the whole flash procedure (and I am not sure Guhl will even offer the option to flash a custom map or even change the ECO map). For those not wanting to make other major performance changes (full exhaust, tb, intakes, etc), there should be little need for additional maps, however.
I think that Jay was referring to the ability to have two custom maps....where as a reflash just gives you one custom map. I used two of Fuelmoto's PC maps in my previous C14, and their ECO fuel map is actually quite good. This is a very nice option for the first gen C14's.
Like I said above, an ECU reflash is a good no-fuss option that is perfectly fine for most people. Power Commanders are a good option too...it really just depends on what your needs and goals are.
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Yes true. You can store two maps on the pcV and use a simple I/O toggle switch to change between the two.
I was not saying that you can't store multiple maps with a PCV. That *is* true.
He said you can't have multiple maps with the reflash option. And that is not correct, and I explained why. On a 2nd gen, you can switch between the two maps, on the fly, with the stock handlebar button. Just pointing that out.
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ok, got it
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That is not the default of the Guhl flash, but you CAN request the flies to be opened almost immediately if you choose to and he will flash it that way. HOWEVER, there is a slight advantage of keeping the flies opening a little delayed on low throttle to keep a little more tameness. Again, everyone will have their own opinion, but it is interesting that Guhl's opinion is to keep a little flies at the start... and I do trust he knows what he is doing and choosing the best option for the most applications/people.
The flies actually can't be opened "almost immediately", as the secondary butterfly actuator will hit the throttle linkage. You could probably open them up around 1800+ RPM or so, but they're fully open by 3000 RPM or earlier in his flashes anyway. There wouldn't be much benefit in opening them any earlier than they already are. I suspect some of it is snake oil, and what owners don't know won't hurt them;).
The main reason tuners are not opening the flies 100% immediately is because they can't without it affecting the throttle mechanism. This has nothing to do with the butterfly plates themselves by the way....just the secondary butterfly actuator. So, you have to think of it from a mechanical point of view, and not flow, to know why the ECU tuners are not opening the flies earlier than they are.
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I was told that re moving the flies is only good your you guys that never drive the thing over 4,000 rpm. I guess the flies go open after that anyway. So those of use that are pretty spirited riders will not notice much difference if they are out or not. :P
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The flies actually can't be opened "almost immediately", as the secondary butterfly actuator will hit the throttle linkage. You could probably open them up around 1800+ RPM or so, but they're fully open by 3000 RPM or earlier in his flashes anyway. There wouldn't be much benefit in opening them any earlier than they already are. I suspect some of it is snake oil, and what owners don't know won't hurt them;).
Good information to know; thanks.
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I was told that re moving the flies is only good your you guys that never drive the thing over 4,000 rpm. I guess the flies go open after that anyway. So those of use that are pretty spirited riders will not notice much difference if they are out or not. :P
???
I doubt there are very many of us that never drive over 4,000 RPM. I am certainly no speed demon, but I almost never shift before around 3.5K and most of the time it is over 4. Spirited or not, if you want to get the bike moving, you start at below idle RPM every time you want to accelerate from a stop or crawl. From my understanding the factory flies are also not just a linear open... I notice not only a BIG difference in the lower RPM (2-4K RPM) but also the 4-6K RPM range with the Ghul flash (where there used to be a kind of lull). Don't notice much change after that... but I also RARELY go over 6K RPM on this bike (there is just so rarely a need!)
In summary, I would say the changes are quite impressive between 2K and 6K.... which is where I spend 99% of my time. I suspect whoever "told" you that has not driven a non-flashed and then flashed C14.
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The secondary butterflies do not fully open until 7,000 RPM and then only at full throttle. At anything less than full throttle, they may not open fully even after the engine hits redline.
Brian
I was told that re moving the flies is only good your you guys that never drive the thing over 4,000 rpm. I guess the flies go open after that anyway. So those of use that are pretty spirited riders will not notice much difference if they are out or not. :P
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Yeah, they don't open them fully all the time because they cannot (due to physical limitations) but 'sell it' as it is better if they are not opened all the way too soon. Funny and a little sad all at the same time. Oh well, a few delivered fibs, some conjured up nonsense, some urban legend, simmer over medium heat for 30 minutes and you have an entire fable! ;D
This is the best place I have found to store 'flies:
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/BDF08012008/PeskyZX14flies.jpg) (http://s45.photobucket.com/user/BDF08012008/media/PeskyZX14flies.jpg.html)
Brian
The flies actually can't be opened "almost immediately", as the secondary butterfly actuator will hit the throttle linkage. You could probably open them up around 1800+ RPM or so, but they're fully open by 3000 RPM or earlier in his flashes anyway. There wouldn't be much benefit in opening them any earlier than they already are. I suspect some of it is snake oil, and what owners don't know won't hurt them;).
The main reason tuners are not opening the flies 100% immediately is because they can't without it affecting the throttle mechanism. This has nothing to do with the butterfly plates themselves by the way....just the secondary butterfly actuator. So, you have to think of it from a mechanical point of view, and not flow, to know why the ECU tuners are not opening the flies earlier than they are.
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All I can say is the change was HUGE to me. And far more bang for the buck compared to most any other performance mod I can think of.
So... things that make you say "hmmm".
Yes, and you seem to be in the majority. All I can say
from my faithful trolling of both forums is I am not the only one whose expectations fell a little short.
So, I love my Connie but in this case I'm glad I only spent $20 on a good quality 12" screwdriver.
Evert
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I was told that re moving the flies is only good your you guys that never drive the thing over 4,000 rpm. I guess the flies go open after that anyway. So those of use that are pretty spirited riders will not notice much difference if they are out or not. :P
I agree with you 100%!!
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I was told that re moving the flies is only good your you guys that never drive the thing over 4,000 rpm. I guess the flies go open after that anyway. So those of use that are pretty spirited riders will not notice much difference if they are out or not. :P
Getting there is half the battle. Some of us used our bikes for more than touring or commuting, we get to the track, ride her hard, or take her to some mountain twisties where mid range is everything. Pulling the flies is hands down the best gain per money and effort From what I gather it seems those with the throttle response issues are running idle at 1150-1200, bump it up to 1250-1300, start the breathing sooner and the issue disappears. Each rider has their own rate of roll on so some may feel more and others less. It makes a difference.
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From my understanding the factory flies are also not just a linear open...
Well, their opening is linear, but their flow characteristics are not. If you look at the performance curve for a butterfly valve, you will not see a straight line.
In summary, I would say the changes are quite impressive between 2K and 6K.... which is where I spend 99% of my time. I suspect whoever "told" you that has not driven a non-flashed and then flashed C14.
Actually, there are some C14 owners that have installed re-flashed ECU's that reported feeling no performance difference at all.
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Yeah, they don't open them fully all the time because they cannot (due to physical limitations) but 'sell it' as it is better if they are not opened all the way too soon. Funny and a little sad all at the same time.
It IS funny and sad isn't it? I thought I'd say something, because I keep seeing people posting that the flies can be programmed to open even earlier if you want them to be...like ordering a steak to be well done instead of medium...lol. The flies in the flashed ECU's are being snapped open around 3000 RPM...perhaps a little earlier in some cases. Opening them any earlier than this would be pretty risky imho, and I doubt any of these ECU tuners even do it. They may tell you that they're going to do it, but likely do nothing at all. There is a little bit of snake oil being sold here, along with some damn fine (and mostly free) internet marketing.
I still think the flashed ECU's are a good option for many C14 owners looking for a little oomph with a no fuss installation. I also think it's great that there are C14 owners reading and researching these forums to come up with their own decisions. This is the way it's supposed to work;).
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Well, their opening is linear, but their flow characteristics are not. If you look at the performance curve for a butterfly valve, you will not see a straight line.
OK, that explains it.
Actually, there are some C14 owners that have installed re-flashed ECU's that reported feeling no performance difference at all.
I really don't see how that is possible. I can only speak to a Guhl reflash, and only on a 2nd Gen. But the difference is black and white; it is not a shade of grey.
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I really don't see how that is possible. I can only speak to a Guhl reflash, and only on a 2nd Gen. But the difference is black and white; it is not a shade of grey.
Well, if it was just a single isolated case, you could say that there was something wrong with that bike, but it has happened several times now, with different owners. It really has a lot to do with the owners and how they ride the bike. Different strokes for different folks as they say;).
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OK, that explains it.
I really don't see how that is possible. I can only speak to a Guhl reflash, and only on a 2nd Gen. But the difference is black and white; it is not a shade of grey.
was a huge difference for me under 6k, huge!! 2500-just pulls great now. now the roads are still not great, but after 60k miles the old way, now this, it is a huge change.
i had the reflash on my 09 with the cs one slipon added and flashed for.
i ride spirited, and track days, but don't hang the rpm over 6-8k 95% of my riding miles. so for me, this is great and a huge change 95% of my future miles. :)
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There was another company doing a reflash that folks had considerable trouble with. Dynotronics or something like that. I don't know if the complaints were also with Guhl's work.
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There was another company doing a reflash that folks had considerable trouble with. Dynotronics or something like that. I don't know if the complaints were also with Guhl's work.
I didn't really follow that whole Dynotronics thing too much....are they still doing C14 ECU's? The stuff I have read is all with the Guhl ECU reflash. I really should stay out of these discussions, because everybody has their own opinions, and if you try to suggest otherwise, all you get is "Well, that is impossible"...lol.
This isn't new however....it's as old as the internet...or time itself...lol.
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I didn't really follow that whole Dynotronics thing too much....are they still doing C14 ECU's? The stuff I have read is all with the Guhl ECU reflash. I really should stay out of these discussions, because everybody has their own opinions, and if you try to suggest otherwise, all you get is "Well, that is impossible"...lol.
This isn't new however....it's as old as the internet...or time itself...lol.
Don't know if they're still in business. As far as the discussions go, everything is opinion unless there is science to back it up. If we can't kick people around for their opinion what good is the internet? :)
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Don't know if they're still in business. As far as the discussions go, everything is opinion unless there is science to back it up. If we can't kick people around for their opinion what good is the internet? :)
Hahaha...Mr. Pink, you just made me snarf coffee out my nose...lol. Thanks for that;).
Rem!
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My bike has a two brothers slip on and a PC5. I had it dyno tuned by one of the west coast's premiere racing techs and I was ..."like take the flies out... it is all over the internet".
He left them in.
Said I didn't need them out. The dyno also stopped what I think some of you call the fueling issue. For me I would let off on the throttle and the bike would lurch back or "pogo" and then lurch back on when I added throttle. This was problematic especially in the corners when this action would change the weight distribution of the bike.
With the dyno tune and PC5 the throttle is now silky smooth and powerful at any rpm
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The stuff I have read is all with the Guhl ECU reflash. I really should stay out of these discussions, because everybody has their own opinions, and if you try to suggest otherwise, all you get is "Well, that is impossible"...lol.
I don't know if you were specifically addressing what I said, but if you were:
1) I didn't say it WAS impossible, I said "I really don't see how that is possible" and qualified it with my model and which flash. Huge difference. Someone is welcome to speculate as to how it COULD be possible, and I did leave that open. For example, maybe the person never goes over 3K RPM, or never uses more than 1/4 throttle (and in which case, why are they spending so much money to reflash the ECU???), or had some OTHER flash that was not Guhl, or has something else terribly wrong with their bike, or somehow ended up reinstalling an ECU that was never flashed or incorrectly flashed.
2) This is not really an "opinion" I stated. It is more "fact" (or as least a data point) that there is a huge difference on my bike. No different than hearing a noise at a certain RPM, or what gas mileage I get, or what top speed might be. I am not quantifiably relaying it nor is it scientifically verified, but it is not really just an opinion. An opinion would be more like "I think this is the best thing ever" or "silver is the nicest color" or "the sound of this muffler is great".
3) There is absolutely nothing wrong with presenting contrary information, that is the whole point of good discussions. I welcome them. Doesn't offend me in the least.
4) I wasn't calling you a liar or disbelieving you are relaying information that you saw previously. Although I might be questioning the VALIDITY of that information based on personal experience, many other postings to the contrary, and just plain logic about what the flash does.
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I don't know if you were specifically addressing what I said, but if you were:
1) I didn't say it WAS impossible, I said "I really don't see how that is possible" and qualified it with my model and which flash. Huge difference. Someone is welcome to speculate as to how it COULD be possible, and I did leave that open. For example, maybe the person never goes over 3K RPM, or never uses more than 1/4 throttle (and in which case, why are they spending so much money to reflash the ECU???), or had some OTHER flash that was not Guhl, or has something else terribly wrong with their bike, or somehow ended up reinstalling an ECU that was never flashed or incorrectly flashed.
2) This is not really an "opinion" I stated. It is more "fact" (or as least a data point) that there is a huge difference on my bike. No different than hearing a noise at a certain RPM, or what gas mileage I get, or what top speed might be. I am not quantifiably relaying it nor is it scientifically verified, but it is not really just an opinion. An opinion would be more like "I think this is the best thing ever" or "silver is the nicest color" or "the sound of this muffler is great".
3) There is absolutely nothing wrong with presenting contrary information, that is the whole point of good discussions. I welcome them. Doesn't offend me in the least.
4) I wasn't calling you a liar or disbelieving you are relaying information that you saw previously. Although I might be questioning the VALIDITY of that information based on personal experience, many other postings to the contrary, and just plain logic about what the flash does.
Mr. Maxtog,
Relax man...I wasn't directing anything at you personally...lol. Geeez.
You have clearly stated that your opinion is not really an opinion, but more of a fact, so I'm not going to challenge you on that. I'll leave it be. It sounds like you've done lots of internet research to back your opinions, so I won't confuse the matter with further ideas or actual logic. I really don't think there's a benefit in doing so.
Carry on.
Cheers,
Rem :)
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Relax man...I wasn't directing anything at you personally...lol. Geeez.
You have clearly stated that your opinion is not really an opinion, but more of a fact, so I'm not going to challenge you on that. I'll leave it be. It sounds like you've done lots of internet research to back your opinions, so I won't confuse the matter with further ideas or actual logic. I really don't think there's a benefit in doing so.
Are you trying to be cute or something by further insulting and patronizing me and hiding behind smiley faces and "lol"? Or do you just think I am stupid? I really don't appreciate it.
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Are you trying to be cute or something by further insulting me and hiding behind smiley faces? Or do you just think I am stupid? I really don't appreciate it.
Are you for real?
Seriously...relax. I'm not trying to insult you or be cute or anything else. You made your point, and I said I was going to stay out of it. Geez.
I put a smiley face after my name 99% of the time....and I always have. The other 1% of the time it isn't there is simply because I forgot to do it. It has absolutely nothing to do with you or anybody else.
Cheers,
Rem
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You know guys, (and this is to no one in particular) I haven't locked a thread in ages. I would prefer not to so let's all mellow out and think nice thoughts... >:( Yet another thread for the crash test dummies....sigh.
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I wear my tires out to the edges and my bike sees redline frequently. I recently had someone say "Jesus!" when I left them in a corner. I'm not V Rossi, but I don't suck either.
I love my Guhl reflash. To me, there is a world of difference when I whack the throttle open at low rpm, it just LEAPS forward. Low rpm becomes high rpm become redline very quickly. I like it a lot, really transformed the bike. It felt so gutless at 2500 rpm before, now it pulls hard off the corner.
To me, it was a no brainer. Spend a lot of time yanking the flies and spend a lot of money and time on a PCIII or spend nearly the same amount and get very close to the same performance. To each, their own but I am very happy with the result. I have a friend that swears by his 'flies pulled, slip on and O2 sensor installed' bike. He loves projects. Myself, I like to RIDE. We're both happy. I am gonna go do a roll on with him soon and see how it goes. Last time he tried a roll on with me, his ZRex 1200 lost badly to my FZ1, I'm hoping to make it 2 for 2!
I'll do a project if I think it's worth it. I yanked my linked brakes and gave up rear ABS but to me, it totally transformed the bike from a sporting standpoint. It's my bike and my money and time and I do what I think will make me happier. So far so good. If you do something totally different and it makes you happy too, well there ya go, good for you.
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What's your setup such as air filter and exhaust?
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Dirty and heavy.
Bone stock. I would like it lighter, but I don't really want louder. When I get on it, I don't want every cop in miles looking in my direction and I don't really want to annoy the general public. When I'm alongside and twist its tail, I just want to disappear QUIETLY. Man, I love this bike.
Plus, I don't want to spend any more money, I have 5 vacations this year that I can barely afford as is.
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That's really good to know. Thanks.
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So...did anyone think to answer the original post?
Can he take his flies out without adding a PC?
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In reviewing this thread it looks like you can. Some think more gain to be had by an add on Power Commander. Some think that just doing a Guhl reflash is all that's needed without removing the flies. Up to you.
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No one knows. It can be done but it is not known what the long- term results would be- the bike may run lean at some throttle openings. The usual method is to pull the 'flies and add a Power Commander with a 'flies out' map. But that still does not answer the original question.
Some people have simply removed them without doing anything else to the bike and reported good results. But again, we do not have any long term (say more than 20K miles) reports about any of those bikes that I am aware of. ??
Brian
So...did anyone think to answer the original post?
Can he take his flies out without adding a PC?
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In reviewing this thread it looks like you can. Some think more gain to be had by an add on Power Commander. Some think that just doing a Guhl reflash is all that's needed without removing the flies. Up to you.
I'm sure I've read about several different C14 owners that have removed the flies and nothing else....but that's all I know.
I've not done it myself without fuel changes, so I don't have much for real-world advice.
I think BDF mentioned the other day...that yes, people have certainly done it, but what we don't have is any long term results.
I'll check it and confirm shortly if anybody is interested. I'll just check the A/F ratio between stock STP mapping, and with STP's open very early. I'm guessing that there will be very little difference, if any at all.
Power Commanders add power from 2500 RPM-up, with significant gains in the higher range, from 4000 RPM to redline. The ECU reflash is aimed more at the low end, with nice gains in Torque between 2000-4000 RPM, where most sport-touring guys spend the majority of their time.
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And the combination of removing the secondaries (the 'flies) and adding a PC adds the most power possible at all RPM ranges. 8)
Brian
<snip>
Power Commanders add power from 2500 RPM-up, with significant gains in the higher range, from 4000 RPM to redline. The ECU reflash is aimed more at the low end, with nice gains in Torque between 2000-4000 RPM, where most sport-touring guys spend the majority of their time.
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And the combination of removing the secondaries (the 'flies) and adding a PC adds the most power possible at all RPM ranges. 8)
Brian
Yessir, you're right. This is why I usually don't agree with comparing ECU flashes with Power Commanders....they really are two different options, with completely different results. I know everybody will say which one is 'better', but I think what's actually better depends on each individual C14 owner and their goals. The opinions will always vary of course;).
There's a lot of info for potential buyers to read and sift through....but hey, that's why research is so fun;).
Cheers,
Rem :)
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A lot of people just want 'the answer' and there isn't one. It is a matter of choices, and everyone has to make his / her own because only that person knows what he / she might be able or willing to do. If doing mechanical work on the bike is not desirable or possible, then that leaves an ECU re-flash as the only real option (even installing a PC takes removal of a lot of bodywork).
My choice was, and still is, easy: I want the whole 1,400 cc bike I bought, all the time, and I want it to run correctly all the time, at all RPM's. So the 'flies had to go and a Power Commander had to be installed. I would do the same thing with a new C-14 if or when that occurs.
The only thing I outright disagree with was the idea that leaving the 'flies in was actually <better> than outright removing them but that was an ugly rumor started by.... guess who? :-) A simple ECU re-flash is certainly the easiest way to change the characteristics of the bike but it is not the performance equal to outright 'flies removal.
Brian
Yessir, you're right. This is why I usually don't agree with comparing ECU flashes with Power Commanders....they really are two different options, with completely different results. I know everybody will say which one is 'better', but I think what's actually better depends on each individual C14 owner and their goals. The opinions will always vary of course;).
There's a lot of info for potential buyers to read and sift through....but hey, that's why research is so fun;).
Cheers,
Rem :)
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So...did anyone think to answer the original post?
Can he take his flies out without adding a PC?
Uh, Posts # 2 and 7 did.
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Just flies out seems to make the bike feel normal, or what you would expect. Gets rid of the bogging feeling. If it were lean you'd know it right away when you backed off the throttle at any given point, because it would surge.
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Just flies out seems to make the bike feel normal, or what you would expect. Gets rid of the bogging feeling. If it were lean you'd know it right away when you backed off the throttle at any given point, because it would surge.
I agree with your assessment and know that there is at very least one forum lurker out there who told me he put 60,000 miles on an '08 with flies out and nothing else.
I have nothing against pc's or the guhl reflash except the cost, especially if you live in Canada. Took the flies out myself and have no doubt Connie and I will live happily for a long, long time.
Evert
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I agree with your assessment and know that there is at very least one forum lurker out there who told me he put 60,000 miles on an '08 with flies out and nothing else.
I have nothing against pc's or the guhl reflash except the cost, especially if you live in Canada. Took the flies out myself and have no doubt Connie and I will live happily for a long, long time.
Evert
that seems like a valid answer (albeit anecdotal) to the OP's original question...
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Uh, Posts # 2 and 7 did.
Indeed, but they contradict each other, so...?
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Based on what I read here, I don't think that you'll hurt the bike by pulling the flies and leaving it at that. If you don't like it, then get PC. Or you could just get a Guhl reflash and leave it at that. It's really whatever floats your boat. There is no wrong way to do it. The only issue that I see might be if you mess up pulling the flies out. There have been some problems reported by members having issues getting the screws out or bending something up. Depends on confidence level and using the proper JIS screwdriver.
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Indeed, but they contradict each other, so...?
OK, so an analogy-you go to a hooker house, the goal is to get laid. There are two options, one is very pretty, but has smaller headlights, the second option is drop dead hot and large, yet perky headlights. What do you do? Go with the pretty free one or pay a bit more for the drop dead hot version?
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Decisions, decisions, decisions....
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double down
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OK, so an analogy-you go to a hooker house, the goal is to get laid. There are two options, one is very pretty, but has smaller headlights, the second option is drop dead hot and large, yet perky headlights. What do you do? Go with the pretty free one or pay a bit more for the drop dead hot version?
Yes!
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OK, so an analogy-you go to a hooker house, the goal is to get laid. There are two options, one is very pretty, but has smaller headlights, the second option is drop dead hot and large, yet perky headlights. What do you do? Go with the pretty free one or pay a bit more for the drop dead hot version?
Reminds me , 18 years ago I'm walking into my Hotel in Warsaw Poland and the most beautiful girl is near the elevator , Hi I say ... one hour, two hour, ALL night she says :yikes:
Well I never touched her ( never did the whore thing ever) she did show me the town :) drinking dancing and I spent the night at her place, good clean fun.
She said she was dirty so I guess she had something I did not want to go homee with. ;)
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double down
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
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OK...I am going to remove the dadbern flies, so what do I do along with it, install a PC V? Too much info here on this thread for me, I'm not real familiar with all the fuel mapping stuff.
Thanks
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OK...I am going to remove the dadbern flies, so what do I do along with it, install a PC V? Too much info here on this thread for me, I'm not real familiar with all the fuel mapping stuff.
You don't have to do anything. Removing the secondary butterflies is something that can be done without any other mod. It doesn't build on anything else, and the change is significant on its own.
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OK, so an analogy-you go to a hooker house, the goal is to get laid. There are two options, one is very pretty, but has smaller headlights, the second option is drop dead hot and large, yet perky headlights. What do you do? Go with the pretty free one or pay a bit more for the drop dead hot version?
http://youtu.be/16QSYESBuRU (http://youtu.be/16QSYESBuRU)
8)
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=1a020ddb6ada" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> (http://<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=1a020ddb6ada" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>)
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Good read gents, couldn't put it down. :D
Nice ending MOBlues :chugbeer: :finger_fing11:
I have a decision to make now flies out or flies out with a PC V.
I had a PC III and Yosh pipe on my Bandit 1250 and it helped. Then I added a Header, filter mod, took the flies out ( couldn't bring myself to putting a hole in the headers for a O2 sensor) changed the PC III to a Dubec EFI box(tuning on the side of the road with a flat screwdriver) and huge difference. The bike lost close to 50lbs with the exhaust change and the removal of the centre-stand. It actually climbs the chain in second gear now.
Anyways back to the C14 I guess I answered my own question, but all info in this thread has definitely help me think of which way to go.
Then there's the reflash!!! Hhmmmm?
Leaning towards the PC V with auto tune because of all the Mountain Passes I travel through. My FI light came on on decent a number of times this summer. Hoping this would be the cure.
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If you add a PC and download any map, whether it's for the ZX or the GTR, you will see in the map that they take fuel OUT with the flies removed.
So the worse case you have, with the flies out, and no PC is a slightly rich mixture which will not hurt the bike... more fuel cools the valves and might blacken the exhaust pipe IF you run around all the time at 25% throttle and under 4000 rpm. That's where the map take out most of the fuel. Big deal. Much to do about nothing.
The only reason the take out the fuel is to gain a few hp in that range by running a lean mixture for optimum power. An added 2-4 hp in that range. But by taking the flies out, you added 20 hp, even with the rich mixture... so your huge gain is in losing the flies.... the PC just adds the cream on top.
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The OP was for a 2008 that has no TC. Mine being a 2014 has TC and I am curious how much removing the flies will affect the TC. I'm sure I read somewhere that the TC uses more Fuel control then the use of the secondary flies when activated.
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
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Reflash the ECU at Guhl motors and you don't have to worry.
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New to this discussion.
Read it over quickly and will go back to reread in detail.
Have 2 questions that I don't see answered in my quick read.
Cost; What is the cost of "remove Flies and add PC" vs "Guhl Reflash"?
Warranty: Do either (or both) void the bikes warranty?
(I suspect the reflash would be harder to detect and less likely to void a warranty)
Ride safe, Ted
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Ted, the reflash is the way to go for anything after a 2010. The reflash is, iirc 375.00, to properly set up a pcv and autotune you're going to be closer to 650-700.00. Steve
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Thanks. Fred highly suggested that and I was leaning towards the reflash anyway.
But it will be down the road after I get some miles on the bike.
Just wanted to know the difference in cost.
Ride safe, Ted
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A Guhl re-flash is $375 plus shipping. A PC V is about $280 if memory serves.
Both could void the warranty but the PC V can be removed from the bike, leaving no trace behind. The ECU can be re-flashed back to 'stock'; I am not sure if that leaves any tell- tale or not.
Removing the 'flies is of course free if you do it yourself and it is not too bad a job IMO- perhaps 2 hours if you sneak the fuel tank off without removing the side fairings (and that is easy to do).
My preference is a Power Commander and 'flies removed because that yields the best low- end and mid- range torque.
And there are other choices in having the ECU re-flashed as others provide the service beside Guhl.
Best of luck whichever way you go Ted.
Brian
New to this discussion.
Read it over quickly and will go back to reread in detail.
Have 2 questions that I don't see answered in my quick read.
Cost; What is the cost of "remove Flies and add PC" vs "Guhl Reflash"?
Warranty: Do either (or both) void the bikes warranty?
(I suspect the reflash would be harder to detect and less likely to void a warranty)
Ride safe, Ted
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Ted, the reflash is the way to go for anything after a 2010. The reflash is, iirc 375.00, to properly set up a pcv and autotune you're going to be closer to 650-700.00. Steve
I wouldn't necessarily say that it is the way to go, but it is definitely the easiest way to go. If you're looking for a little power boost down low in a plug-N-play mod, then the Guhl flash is the best choice. The Guhl reflash is a bit on the conservative side, and it should be, so for sport-touring use, it's great.
If you're looking more for ultimate HP numbers and max increase in HP and TQ, then flies out and PCV is definitely way to go. However, there's more work involved to install and set-up.
It doesn't really matter what year or generation the C14 is, there have been enough C14 owners that have pulled their flies and reported that the Ktrac system works as advertised, same as it did before the flies were removed. I know Fred Harmon reports differently, but his tests really don't show anything other than his own perception of what is happening.
Rem :o
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Thanks Rem and Brian ;D :chugbeer:
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The OP was for a 2008 that has no TC. Mine being a 2014 has TC and I am curious how much removing the flies will affect the TC. I'm sure I read somewhere that the TC uses more Fuel control then the use of the secondary flies when activated.
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
You probably missed this in previous postings.
The secondary butterflies ARE used by traction control as one of three ways to slow the engine, the othesr being the ignition/fuel. However, if the "flies" are removed, the TC will still work, just maybe not quite as elegantly. Most people report they don't notice much difference in TC with the flies in or out.
If you reflash (Guhl) then it will have the same effect as removing the flies, but retain more of stock traction control behavior.
Removing the flies is very cheap if you do it yourself and consider your time worth nothing. But it is a long procedure. If you ever plan on installing a PC or other "radical" changes, this is what you want to do.
Reflashing is not cheap, but it is extremely easy. It also keeps everything "looking" factory, doesn't disturb the TC as much, gives you a slightly improved fuel map which can result in a bit better performance, and gives you the ability to use the FEAM (on gen2 bikes) to revert back to the old map for comparison.
Pick your poison. Either way, it will be best single performance mod you can make to the bike, and the essential starting point for any other in the future.
[revised per conversation below]
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Glad to help if I can. And I always try to pass along what information I can to allow others to make their own choice hopefully a little better informed (than they were before they read the post :-) ).
In this particular case, all three methods work, it is just a matter of choosing the one that the specific owner thinks will work best for his / her bike.
Brian
Thanks Rem and Brian ;D :chugbeer:
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Just a different opinion but I do not agree with the thought that a re-flash will leave the TC mechanism untouched or leave it operating as it did OE. The fact that a re- flash opens the flies sooner / farther will effect how much and how soon they can close to the required amount to reduce power to the rear wheel. The stepper that moves those secondaries is not very fast and yet rapid power reduction is required to prevent excessive wheel spin.
There are not two ways the ECU controls traction, there are three- the 'flies, ignition and fuel delivery, with the last two being the most important, fastest and most positive.
Also, the secondary 'flies are the most variable and least positive of the three methods the ECU uses to limit or reduce power. Even fully closed, they are not closed due to the significant clearance around them; the bike runs quite well and produces a fair amount of power with the 'flies fully closed (this happens often in normal operation BTW). The other two methods, spark retardation or elimination, along with fuel reduction or elimination, are absolutely positive methods to limit power to any degree and w/in one rotation of the engine.
Brian
You probably missed this in previous postings.
The secondary butterflies ARE used by traction control as one of two ways to slow the engine, the other being the ignition. However, if the "flies" are removed, the TC will still work, just maybe not quite as elegantly. Most people report they don't notice much difference in TC with the flies in or out.
If you reflash (Guhl) then it will have the same effect as removing the flies, but retain 100% of the traction control.
Removing the flies is very cheap if you do it yourself and consider your time worth nothing. But it is a long procedure. If you ever plan on installing a PC or other "radical" changes, this is what you want to do.
Reflashing is not cheap, but it is extremely easy. It also keeps everything "looking" factory, doesn't disturb the TC in any way, gives you a slightly improved fuel map which can result in a bit better performance, and gives you the ability to use the FEAM to revert back to the old map for comparison.
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Just a different opinion but I do not agree with the thought that a re-flash will leave the TC mechanism untouched or leave it operating as it did OE. The fact that a re- flash opens the flies sooner / farther will effect how much and how soon they can close to the required amount to reduce power to the rear wheel. The stepper that moves those secondaries is not very fast and yet rapid power reduction is required to prevent excessive wheel spin.
I agree with that theory. However, I don't think either of us knows how quickly or not the secondaries can close.... plus the change pre/post flash isn't from full open to full closed (however closed that might be) over most of the spectrum... kinda depends on a lot of factors. So I will revise to say that flashing will affect TC less than totally removing the flies.
There are not two ways the ECU controls traction, there are three- the 'flies, ignition and fuel delivery, with the last two being the most important, fastest and most positive.
Agreed- will revise and try not to forget (yet again... not the first time I have)
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I have to agree with Brian in that the changes in ignition and fueling happen way quicker than the procedure of closing the flies. The former two happen within one revolution of the crankshaft, which for example at 6000 rpm will take a hundredth of a second, whereas I can't see any stepper motor turning the rod and 4 plates (with all that inertia) that quick, even just 30° or whatever they turn.
Taking the thought a bit further, it sounds plausible that by closing the secondary plates you're not so much stopping the slipping of the rear wheel, but more like nurturing the power when the engine re-applies it after the slipping has been brought in check by the reduction of power achieved by the ignition and fueling adjustment.
Just a guess.
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I have used a lot of steppers and 1,000 RPM is really fast for a stepper motor. And they skip at those speeds. I have watched the one that drives the secondary 'flies on a C-14 and it is not moving anywhere near that fast. But let's say it is going 500 RPM, which I doubt but just to be lenient. And then say the 'flies are 50% open. See how fast the 'flies can get from open to closed when the bike is doing 30 MPH and the rear wheel slips. I am not going to bother doing the math but spark and fuel delivery changes will make the needed changes long before the 'flies get to horizontal.... and that is NOT closed either as we ride these bikes with the 'flies "fully" closed all the time to significant engine speeds.
I'll stick to my original idea that the 'flies don't make much, if any, difference in T/C.
And to be honest, I do not have a C-14 to test this out myself- all of this is just deduction on my part.
Brian
I agree with that theory. However, I don't think either of us knows how quickly or not the secondaries can close.... plus the change pre/post flash isn't from full open to full closed (however closed that might be) over most of the spectrum... kinda depends on a lot of factors. So I will revise to say that flashing will affect TC less than totally removing the flies.
Agreed- will revise and try not to forget (yet again... not the first time I have)
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Taking the thought a bit further, it sounds plausible that by closing the secondary plates you're not so much stopping the slipping of the rear wheel, but more like nurturing the power when the engine re-applies it after the slipping has been brought in check by the reduction of power achieved by the ignition and fueling adjustment.
Interesting thought
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Wouldn't it be a reasonable occurance for the secondary throttle plates to close after the rpms are reduced from a traction control event and not be a part of the actual TC correction?
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I wouldn't necessarily say that it is the way to go, but it is definitely the easiest way to go. If you're looking for a little power boost down low in a plug-N-play mod, then the Guhl flash is the best choice. The Guhl reflash is a bit on the conservative side, and it should be, so for sport-touring use, it's great.
Rem :o
rem, agreed, but I know ted, and I don't think he's wanting to have to take his brand new 2014 apart (fly removal) Steve
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Keeeeerect!!
First of all, the wife bought it for me as an anniversary (42)/retirement gift.
Second of all, I had knee surgery and can't ride it or at this point bend my knee enough to set on it...
So, the bike is setting in the garage with 4 miles on it.....
Before I take it apart,, I'd like to ride it and get to know it!
"AND" More important,,,, If I take it apart,,,, the wife would KILL ME!!!
While I'm setting here, can't drive (because surgery was on right knee), can't ride the bike,,,,, and bored out of my MIND!!!!
all I can do is type on the stupid computer and get information from ya'll.
Thank you for your input!
Ride safe, Ted
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Hey, ride it stock Ted, you may find it perfectly acceptable or even great! It is not like the bike runs badly or anything stock because it does not. It is just that the low end to mid- range torque is limited; if that does not bother you, you may already have motorcycling nirvana. Whatever you do, don't let anyone talk you into modifications you think you want or have to do to the C-14- it is a great bike right out of the crate IMO.
By the way- congrats on the new ride! I wish you the best of luck and greatest satisfaction on the new horse. It is not perfect but I do believe you will find it to be a fine ride and a pleasure to own. Other than those pesky stock tires :-(
Brian
Keeeeerect!!
First of all, the wife bought it for me as an anniversary (42)/retirement gift.
Second of all, I had knee surgery and can't ride it or at this point bend my knee enough to set on it...
So, the bike is setting in the garage with 4 miles on it.....
Before I take it apart,, I'd like to ride it and get to know it!
"AND" More important,,,, If I take it apart,,,, the wife would KILL ME!!!
While I'm setting here, can't drive (because surgery was on right knee), can't ride the bike,,,,, and bored out of my MIND!!!!
all I can do is type on the stupid computer and get information from ya'll.
Thank you for your input!
Ride safe, Ted
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This may sound funny, but due to my locale, I like that the flies tone down the engine some for congested city driving. Accelerating in upper gears from lower RPM's does reveal its slight sluggishness, but when in traffic flow, it allows me to stay in the flow without lots of gear changes. On the hiway, I can pass a car in 5th or 6th at 60MPH and be doing 90-100 when returning to my lane. That's plenty good for me.
My previous ZZR1200, with carbs, probably accelerated like the 14 with the flies out, etc. It liked to pull arms out of their sockets. Fun but sometimes scary, too.
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This may sound funny, but due to my locale, I like that the flies tone down the engine some for congested city driving.
For me, the flash to "disable" the secondary butterflies further amplified the throttle snatch of the bike... so a throttle tamer solved that. For the first several rides, I was in different gears than I thought, since suddenly I could accelerate while in 5th and 6th at much lower rpms than before. As with most performance increasing mods, it wasn't long before I "absorbed" the new found power and it became "norm". In any case, 6th gear is still really a very low gear... I don't find it difficult in 6th to not creep up/down too much when going around 60-70 MPH.
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6th gear in this bike is the longest I've experienced (probably a Goldwing has a longer one, though, but that bike revs to 6000 only).
For comparison, at 4000 rpm most bikes (Versys 1000, BMW K1600, even the ZX14) will do 70 mph. The BMW S1000RR will do 55, as other sports bikes.
C14? 83 mph.
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6th gear in this bike is the longest I've experienced (probably a Goldwing has a longer one, though, but that bike revs to 6000 only).
For comparison, at 4000 rpm most bikes (Versys 1000, BMW K1600, even the ZX14) will do 70 mph. The BMW S1000RR will do 55, as other sports bikes.
C14? 83 mph.
I can't use 6th comfortably on the C14 for anything less than about 60 MPH, which I think is around 3KRPM. Anything lower and it lugging almost continuously. I am not complaining, though- it is perfect for cruising at high speeds- giving the maximum fuel economy with the least amount of vibration and noise. When driving on interesting roads (2 lane, non straight) with 55 posted, the bike is mostly in 5th.
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I can't use 6th comfortably on the C14 for anything less than about 60 MPH, which I think is around 3KRPM. Anything lower and it lugging almost continuously. I am not complaining, though- it is perfect for cruising at high speeds- giving the maximum fuel economy with the least amount of vibration and noise. When driving on interesting roads (2 lane, non straight) with 55 posted, the bike is mostly in 5th.
That's what 4th is four. ;)
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Wouldn't it be a reasonable occurance for the secondary throttle plates to close after the rpms are reduced from a traction control event and not be a part of the actual TC correction?
According to this video, the signal is sent to all three items at the same time....although I'm sure the whole thing was simplified for our viewing pleasure and understanding...lol.
Kawasaki GTR1400 traction control explained (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28PO6QMzcsU#)
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That's what 4th is four. ;)
Sometimes.... but generally I am just not that good :)
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According to this video, the signal is sent to all three items at the same time....although I'm sure the whole thing was simplified for our viewing pleasure and understanding...lol.
1) Neat video! I haven't seen that one before.
2) They are probably simplifying it, as you say.
3) Here is the most important thing- they specifically say "And sub-throttle valves [secondary butterflies] are used to control airflow, the key to ensuring smooth operation"
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According to this video, the signal is sent to all three items at the same time....although I'm sure the whole thing was simplified for our viewing pleasure and understanding...lol.
Kawasaki GTR1400 traction control explained (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28PO6QMzcsU#)
This lends some credibility to Martin's thought that the secondaries are closed to prevent an upsetting surge of power when the TC event is over.
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This lends some credibility to Martin's thought that the secondaries are closed to prevent an upsetting surge of power when the TC event is over.
The flies exist on the ZX14's and Connies without TC as well.
They wanted 145 RWHP as smooth as you could imagine. And delivered. But getting there was a bit subdued. Smooth, but kinda weak. Both the ZX14
and Connie were a bit weak in the basement. At least compared to my ZZR1200. Removing the secondary throttle bodys fixed that issue.
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At least compared to my ZZR1200.
+1 on the ZZR1200. Basically it is three bikes in one. Idle to around 3500RPM, a nice town bike. 3500-6000 RPM, it is now a fast sportbike. 6000 to red line, it is a screaming MF of a motorcycle. Just hanging on for dear life. I liked all three bikes, but knew I was either going to lose my license or my life, so I traded it for a KLR, with 36 real HP. Fun, but I went back to the C14 for that illusive feeling of neck snapping acceleration with a simple twist of the wrist.
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The flies exist on the ZX14's and Connies without TC as well.
I believe the secondary butterflies were added primarily for emissions control.
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I believe the secondary butterflies were added primarily for emissions control.
Why?
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Well that made me to do this...
Tim Allen's Home Improvement Grunt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnsiZOJjfUg#)
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Why?
I believe the earlier C14 reviews, as well as other models with secondary butterflies, indicated that they were to improve drivability and for smoother power delivery in the lower RPM range. I could be wrong, but I recall hearing that in a video somewhere along the way.
Rem :o
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I believe the earlier C14 reviews, as well as other models with secondary butterflies, indicated that they were to improve drivability and for smoother power delivery in the lower RPM range. I could be wrong, but I recall hearing that in a video somewhere along the way.
Rem :o
meh, we can get that with the secret throttle handshake.
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Hmmmmm- two thoughts. That's not a handshake. And that's not a throttle.
:rotflmao:
Brian
meh, we can get that with the secret throttle handshake.
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I actually heard one time (at band camp) that they were there to reduce overall noise signature. At first I thought that ridiculous but after removing the 'flies from my own bike, I did notice a very impressive increase in intake noise. Combined with the overall increase in noise that comes with greater power production, it could make a lot of white noise that would show up immediately in a noise test. ??
Of course the problem with what we are told is that that information comes from "sales" and does not really reflect anything real. They just put the best possible spin on it and send it out the door- just like we need premium fuel due to the VVT on the bike- ridiculous but it makes a good 'sound bite'.
Brian
I believe the earlier C14 reviews, as well as other models with secondary butterflies, indicated that they were to improve drivability and for smoother power delivery in the lower RPM range. I could be wrong, but I recall hearing that in a video somewhere along the way.
Rem :o
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.just like we need premium fuel due to the VVT on the bike- ridiculous but it makes a good 'sound bite'.
Brian
Does the bike really need 91+ octane, as the little sticker says, or will 87 or 89 work as well? Oh, what instrument did you play at band camp?
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Does the bike really need 91+ octane, as the little sticker says, or will 87 or 89 work as well? Oh, what instrument did you play at band camp?
see reply #110 :_shudder_Emoticon
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see reply #110 :_shudder_Emoticon
The two schools of thought part? At least I hope that's what you mean, as my throttle stays away from the gas tank. The octane was at least 110, before that certain surgury 25 years ago, now 0... ;D ;D ;D
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Hmmmmm- two thoughts. That's not a handshake. And that's not a throttle.
:rotflmao:
Brian
Re: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration)
« Reply #191 on: Today at 08:18:30 am »
Quote
Quote from: B.D.F. on Today at 08:12:45 am
We're gonna' need a bigger pole....
Brian
I believe most here would like a bigger pole...The two schools of thought part? At least I hope that's what you mean, as my throttle stays away from the gas tank. The octane was at least 110, before that certain surgury 25 years ago, now 0... ;D ;D ;D
:rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Now I have to clean the coffee up I spit everywhere.
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Happens a lot around here...spitting out of drinks involuntarily.
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I actually heard one time (at band camp) that they were there to reduce overall noise signature. At first I thought that ridiculous but after removing the 'flies from my own bike, I did notice a very impressive increase in intake noise.
After the Ghul flash, I also noticed the bike was louder. Never mentioned it because I thought maybe it was just my imagination or placebo or something.
Anyway, it could very well be there are several reasons for the secondary butterflies: Choking/smoothing/taming power delivery (mostly by limiting power on takeoffs), emissions control (by limiting power and preventing real full throttle openings at lower/mid RPM), fuel economy (follows with previous), and noise control (mostly follows with previous, unless there is some fancy airflow/volumetric type explanation)... and then on the gen2, as part of the traction control (limiting power and/or smoothing out reduction and reapplication of power before/after an event).
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I was astounded at the increase in general or 'white' noise after removing the 'flies from my bike. And all of it is directed right at the rider's head too. I mentioned this to a rep. from Kawasaki once and he said that that was why they were there in the first place- to reduce the overall noise signature from the bike for EPA testing. And of course not just the intake tract noise but by reducing power output, they indirectly reduce exhaust and overall engine noise as well. That information did not come from a source I am absolutely confident would know but it sure seemed reasonable to me.
Passing gov't regulations is not a matter of Pass / Fail but rather touching on many points and averages in testing. It is like fleet mileage averages; part of the need for Fiestas is F450 trucks....
Brian
After the Ghul flash, I also noticed the bike was louder. Never mentioned it because I thought maybe it was just my imagination or placebo or something.
Anyway, it could very well be there are several reasons for the secondary butterflies: Choking/smoothing/taming power delivery (mostly by limiting power on takeoffs), emissions control (by limiting power and preventing real full throttle openings at lower/mid RPM), fuel economy (follows with previous), and noise control (mostly follows with previous, unless there is some fancy airflow/volumetric type explanation)... and then on the gen2, as part of the traction control (limiting power and/or smoothing out reduction and reapplication of power before/after an event).