Removing the secondary flies-Question

[B.D.F.]

A Guhl re-flash is $375 plus shipping. A PC V is about $280 if memory serves.

Both could void the warranty but the PC V can be removed from the bike, leaving no trace behind. The ECU can be re-flashed back to 'stock'; I am not sure if that leaves any tell- tale or not.

Removing the 'flies is of course free if you do it yourself and it is not too bad a job IMO- perhaps 2 hours if you sneak the fuel tank off without removing the side fairings (and that is easy to do).

My preference is a Power Commander and 'flies removed because that yields the best low- end and mid- range torque.

And there are other choices in having the ECU re-flashed as others provide the service beside Guhl.

Best of luck whichever way you go Ted.

Brian

New to this discussion.
Read it over quickly and will go back to reread in detail.

Have 2 questions that I don't see answered in my quick read.

Cost; What is the cost of "remove Flies and add PC" vs "Guhl Reflash"?
Warranty: Do either (or both) void the bikes warranty?
                (I suspect the reflash would be harder to detect and less likely to void a warranty)

Ride safe, Ted

[Rembrant]

Ted, the reflash is the way to go for anything after a 2010. The reflash is, iirc 375.00, to properly set up a pcv and autotune you're going to be closer to 650-700.00. Steve

I wouldn't necessarily say that it is the way to go, but it is definitely the easiest way to go. If you're looking for a little power boost down low in a plug-N-play mod, then the Guhl flash is the best choice. The Guhl reflash is a bit on the conservative side, and it should be, so for sport-touring use, it's great.

If you're looking more for ultimate HP numbers and max increase in HP and TQ, then flies out and PCV is definitely way to go. However, there's more work involved to install and set-up.

It doesn't really matter what year or generation the C14 is, there have been enough C14 owners that have pulled their flies and reported that the Ktrac system works as advertised, same as it did before the flies were removed. I know Fred Harmon reports differently, but his tests really don't show anything other than his own perception of what is happening.

Rem

[AlbertaDoug]

Thanks Rem and Brian 

[maxtog]

The OP was for a 2008 that has no TC. Mine being a 2014 has TC and I am curious how much removing the flies will affect the TC. I'm sure I read somewhere that the TC uses more Fuel control then the use of the secondary flies when activated.
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

You probably missed this in previous postings.
The secondary butterflies ARE used by traction control as one of three ways to slow the engine, the othesr being the ignition/fuel.  However, if the "flies" are removed, the TC will still work, just maybe not quite as elegantly.  Most people report they don't notice much difference in TC with the flies in or out.

If you reflash (Guhl) then it will have the same effect as removing the flies, but retain more of stock traction control behavior.

Removing the flies is very cheap if you do it yourself and consider your time worth nothing.  But it is a long procedure.  If you ever plan on installing a PC or other "radical" changes, this is what you want to do.

Reflashing is not cheap, but it is extremely easy.  It also keeps everything "looking" factory, doesn't disturb the TC as much, gives you a slightly improved fuel map which can result in a bit better performance, and gives you the ability to use the FEAM (on gen2 bikes) to revert back to the old map for comparison.

Pick your poison.  Either way, it will be best single performance mod you can make to the bike, and the essential starting point for any other in the future.

[revised per conversation below]

[B.D.F.]

Glad to help if I can. And I always try to pass along what information I can to allow others to make their own choice hopefully  a little better informed (than they were before they read the post :-)  ).

In this particular case, all three methods work, it is just a matter of choosing the one that the specific owner thinks will work best for his / her bike.

Brian

Thanks Rem and Brian 

[B.D.F.]

Just a different opinion but I do not agree with the thought that a re-flash will leave the TC mechanism untouched or leave it operating as it did OE. The fact that a re- flash opens the flies sooner / farther will effect how much and how soon they can close to the required amount to reduce power to the rear wheel. The stepper that moves those secondaries is not very fast and yet rapid power reduction is required to prevent excessive wheel spin.

There are not two ways the ECU controls traction, there are three- the 'flies, ignition and fuel delivery, with the last two being the most important, fastest and most positive.

Also, the secondary 'flies are the most variable and least positive of the three methods the ECU uses to limit or reduce power. Even fully closed, they are not closed due to the significant clearance around them; the bike runs quite well and produces a fair amount of power with the 'flies fully closed (this happens often in normal operation BTW). The other two methods, spark retardation or elimination, along with fuel reduction or elimination, are absolutely positive methods to limit power to any degree and w/in one rotation of the engine.

Brian

You probably missed this in previous postings.
The secondary butterflies ARE used by traction control as one of two ways to slow the engine, the other being the ignition.  However, if the "flies" are removed, the TC will still work, just maybe not quite as elegantly.  Most people report they don't notice much difference in TC with the flies in or out.

If you reflash (Guhl) then it will have the same effect as removing the flies, but retain 100% of the traction control.

Removing the flies is very cheap if you do it yourself and consider your time worth nothing.  But it is a long procedure.  If you ever plan on installing a PC or other "radical" changes, this is what you want to do.

Reflashing is not cheap, but it is extremely easy.  It also keeps everything "looking" factory, doesn't disturb the TC in any way, gives you a slightly improved fuel map which can result in a bit better performance, and gives you the ability to use the FEAM to revert back to the old map for comparison.

[maxtog]

Just a different opinion but I do not agree with the thought that a re-flash will leave the TC mechanism untouched or leave it operating as it did OE. The fact that a re- flash opens the flies sooner / farther will effect how much and how soon they can close to the required amount to reduce power to the rear wheel. The stepper that moves those secondaries is not very fast and yet rapid power reduction is required to prevent excessive wheel spin.

I agree with that theory.  However, I don't think either of us knows how quickly or not the secondaries can close.... plus the change pre/post flash isn't from full open to full closed (however closed that might be) over most of the spectrum... kinda depends on a lot of factors.  So I will revise to say that flashing will affect TC less than totally removing the flies.

There are not two ways the ECU controls traction, there are three- the 'flies, ignition and fuel delivery, with the last two being the most important, fastest and most positive.

Agreed- will revise and try not to forget (yet again... not the first time I have)

[martin_14]

I have to agree with Brian in that the changes in ignition and fueling happen way quicker than the procedure of closing the flies. The former two happen within one revolution of the crankshaft, which for example at 6000 rpm will take a hundredth of a second, whereas I can't see any stepper motor turning the rod and 4 plates (with all that inertia) that quick, even just 30° or whatever they turn.
Taking the thought a bit further, it sounds plausible that by closing the secondary plates you're not so much stopping the slipping of the rear wheel, but more like nurturing the power when the engine re-applies it after the slipping has been brought in check by the reduction of power achieved by the ignition and fueling adjustment.

Just a guess.

[B.D.F.]

I have used a lot of steppers and 1,000 RPM is really fast for a stepper motor. And they skip at those speeds. I have watched the one that drives the secondary 'flies on a C-14 and it is not moving anywhere near that fast. But let's say it is going 500 RPM, which I doubt but just to be lenient. And then say the 'flies are 50% open. See how fast the 'flies can get from open to closed when the bike is doing 30 MPH and the rear wheel slips. I am not going to bother doing the math but spark and fuel delivery changes will make the needed changes long before the 'flies get to horizontal.... and that is NOT closed either as we ride these bikes with the 'flies "fully" closed all the time to significant engine speeds.

I'll stick to my original idea that the 'flies don't make much, if any, difference in T/C.

And to be honest, I do not have a C-14 to test this out myself- all of this is just deduction on my part.

Brian

I agree with that theory.  However, I don't think either of us knows how quickly or not the secondaries can close.... plus the change pre/post flash isn't from full open to full closed (however closed that might be) over most of the spectrum... kinda depends on a lot of factors.  So I will revise to say that flashing will affect TC less than totally removing the flies.

Agreed- will revise and try not to forget (yet again... not the first time I have)

[maxtog]

Taking the thought a bit further, it sounds plausible that by closing the secondary plates you're not so much stopping the slipping of the rear wheel, but more like nurturing the power when the engine re-applies it after the slipping has been brought in check by the reduction of power achieved by the ignition and fueling adjustment.

Interesting thought

[gPink]

Wouldn't it be a reasonable occurance for the secondary throttle plates to close after the rpms are reduced from a traction control event and not be a part of the actual TC correction?

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

I wouldn't necessarily say that it is the way to go, but it is definitely the easiest way to go. If you're looking for a little power boost down low in a plug-N-play mod, then the Guhl flash is the best choice. The Guhl reflash is a bit on the conservative side, and it should be, so for sport-touring use, it's great.

Rem

 rem, agreed, but I know ted, and I don't think he's wanting to have to take his brand new 2014 apart (fly removal) Steve

[connie_rider]

Keeeeerect!!

First of all, the wife bought it for me as an anniversary (42)/retirement gift.
Second of all, I had knee surgery and can't ride it or at this point bend my knee enough to set on it...
So, the bike is setting in the garage with 4 miles on it.....

Before I take it apart,, I'd like to ride it and get to know it!
"AND" More important,,,, If I take it apart,,,, the wife would KILL ME!!!

While I'm setting here, can't drive (because surgery was on right knee), can't ride the bike,,,,, and bored out of my MIND!!!!
all I can do is type on the stupid computer and get information from ya'll.
Thank you for your input!

Ride safe, Ted

[B.D.F.]

Hey, ride it stock Ted, you may find it perfectly acceptable or even great! It is not like the bike runs badly or anything stock because it does not. It is just that the low end to mid- range torque is limited; if that does not bother you, you may already have motorcycling nirvana. Whatever you do, don't let anyone talk you into modifications you think you want or have to do to the C-14- it is a great bike right out of the crate IMO.

By the way- congrats on the new ride! I wish you the best of luck and greatest satisfaction on the new horse. It is not perfect but I do believe you will find it to be a fine ride and a pleasure to own. Other than those pesky stock tires :-(

Brian

Keeeeerect!!

First of all, the wife bought it for me as an anniversary (42)/retirement gift.
Second of all, I had knee surgery and can't ride it or at this point bend my knee enough to set on it...
So, the bike is setting in the garage with 4 miles on it.....

Before I take it apart,, I'd like to ride it and get to know it!
"AND" More important,,,, If I take it apart,,,, the wife would KILL ME!!!

While I'm setting here, can't drive (because surgery was on right knee), can't ride the bike,,,,, and bored out of my MIND!!!!
all I can do is type on the stupid computer and get information from ya'll.
Thank you for your input!

Ride safe, Ted

[tomp]

This may sound funny, but due to my locale, I like that the flies tone down the engine some for congested city driving.  Accelerating in upper gears from lower RPM's does reveal its slight sluggishness, but when in traffic flow, it allows me to stay in the flow without lots of gear changes.  On the hiway, I can pass a car in 5th or 6th at 60MPH and be doing 90-100 when returning to my lane.  That's plenty good for me. 

My previous ZZR1200, with carbs, probably accelerated like the 14 with the flies out, etc.  It liked to pull arms out of their sockets.  Fun but sometimes scary, too. 

[maxtog]

This may sound funny, but due to my locale, I like that the flies tone down the engine some for congested city driving.

For me, the flash to "disable" the secondary butterflies further amplified the throttle snatch of the bike... so a throttle tamer solved that.  For the first several rides, I was in different gears than I thought, since suddenly I could accelerate while in 5th and 6th at much lower rpms than before.  As with most performance increasing mods, it wasn't long before I "absorbed" the new found power and it became "norm".  In any case, 6th gear is still really a very low gear... I don't find it difficult  in 6th to not creep up/down too much when going around 60-70 MPH.

[martin_14]

6th gear in this bike is the longest I've experienced (probably a Goldwing has a longer one, though, but that bike revs to 6000 only).
For comparison, at 4000 rpm most bikes (Versys 1000, BMW K1600, even the ZX14) will do 70 mph. The BMW S1000RR will do 55, as other sports bikes.
C14? 83 mph.

[maxtog]

6th gear in this bike is the longest I've experienced (probably a Goldwing has a longer one, though, but that bike revs to 6000 only).
For comparison, at 4000 rpm most bikes (Versys 1000, BMW K1600, even the ZX14) will do 70 mph. The BMW S1000RR will do 55, as other sports bikes.
C14? 83 mph.

I can't use 6th comfortably on the C14 for anything less than about 60 MPH, which I think is around 3KRPM.  Anything lower and it lugging almost continuously.  I am not complaining, though- it is perfect for cruising at high speeds- giving the maximum fuel economy with the least amount of vibration and noise.  When driving on interesting roads (2 lane, non straight) with 55 posted, the bike is mostly in 5th.

[gPink]

I can't use 6th comfortably on the C14 for anything less than about 60 MPH, which I think is around 3KRPM.  Anything lower and it lugging almost continuously.  I am not complaining, though- it is perfect for cruising at high speeds- giving the maximum fuel economy with the least amount of vibration and noise. When driving on interesting roads (2 lane, non straight) with 55 posted, the bike is mostly in 5th.

That's what 4th is four. 

[Rembrant]

Wouldn't it be a reasonable occurance for the secondary throttle plates to close after the rpms are reduced from a traction control event and not be a part of the actual TC correction?

According to this video, the signal is sent to all three items at the same time....although I'm sure the whole thing was simplified for our viewing pleasure and understanding...lol.

Kawasaki GTR1400 traction control explained