Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: RandyN on March 26, 2013, 12:45:17 PM
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I did my fix that we discussed here. It is posted at this link in modifications section. http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=13655.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=13655.0)
I have tried for a month now to get used to the linked brakes on my 2011 Concours and still hate it. It's very abrupt when you are applying front brake and then some rear. It will suddenly grab more brake and dive, it also is very abrupt when you release the brakes. I also have a 2001 Honda Gold Wing and a 2006 FJR that both have linked brakes but are seamless in their application. I've ridden two other Concours 14's, a 2010 non ABS and a 2012 w/ ABS. Of course the non ABS felt normal but the 2012 with ABS had the same abrupt braking problem, although not as bad as mine. I've tried calling Kawasaki USA, and like the others have stated in forum comments, have been told by them that they aren't aware of the problem. I've been reading on the forums about how to disable the link without causing other problems and have come to the conclusion that if I just disconnect the rear brake lines going to the ABS motor and replace them with a line directly from the rear master cylinder to the caliper (from a 2010 non ABS) and plug the holes on the ABS motor it will be the fix I'm looking for. Of course I won't have ABS on the rear anymore but I can live with that.
Has anyone else tried this or are there any other fixes available? Does anyone see any problem with this fix other than the loss of ABS at the rear?
A Discussion on the problem.
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=11591.15 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=11591.15)
Found this one where someone else did it and was totally happy.
http://advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14463865&postcount=171 (http://advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14463865&postcount=171)
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The linked brakes haven't bothered me enough to look into it, but that simple solution you posted from the ADV forum is interesting indeed
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Steve that's because you don't ride enough ;) I mean you only got 75,000 on your 2010
I don't have any problem with them either.
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Steve that because you don't ride enough ;) I mean you only got 75,000 on your 2010
I don't have any problem with them either.
:D
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Kawasaki is aware of the problem on some level.
Sounds like a good work around if you can live w/o ABS out back. Keep us posted.
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I thought the abruptness was a break in issue on my '12 or I just didn't feel it on my '08. Hopefully there's a software update or a hardware tweak to fix the feel - it's horribly abrupt!
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I thought the abruptness was a break in issue on my '12 or I just didn't feel it on my '08. Hopefully there's a software update or a hardware tweak to fix the feel - it's horribly abrupt!
'08s don't have linked brakes.
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top~
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'08s don't have linked brakes.
Silverdammit RTW!!!
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'08s don't have linked brakes.
Exactly. What I meant was when I felt my '12's brakes, it was either 1) that's normal C14 brakes and I'd forgotten how crappy they were from my '08 (false) or 2) break-in issue (false). The reality is the linked brakes on my '12 just suck.
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Although most everyone agrees there is a design flaw, not everyone cares as much, since it depends on how the bike is driven... The problems are only visible when the rear brakes are used (manually). When using only the front brake [lever], there is no issue.
The idea of taking the rear brakes off ABS sounds a bit shocking, but it is probably not as horrible as it sounds when I first thought about it. The rear brakes contribute don't contribute a lot to total braking, but I would be concerned that if one was going to use them manually and defeated ABS on them, it would be a pretty big negative. So now I am not sure what to think about this idea but it makes for a good thread......
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I have tried for a month now to get used to the linked brakes on my 2011 Concours and still hate it. It's very abrupt when you are applying front brake and then some rear. It will suddenly grab more brake and dive, it also is very abrupt when you release the brakes.
By your description it sounds like the ABS system might be thinking you are using too much rear brake and trying to transfer more of the braking effort to the front for you. I was thinking the linked brake system was designed to allow riders to use the rear brake pedal only if they wanted and divide the braking force appropriately between the front and rear for the rider.
Is there a "sport" setting for the linked brakes that reduces the effect?
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It would probably be possible to swap in an 08 or 09 abs module....well, no, then You'd lose the traction control.
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The idea of taking the rear brakes off ABS sounds a bit shocking, but it is probably not as horrible as it sounds when I first thought about it. The rear brakes contribute don't contribute a lot to total braking, but I would be concerned that if one was going to use them manually and defeated ABS on them, it would be a pretty big negative. So now I am not sure what to think about this idea but it makes for a good thread......
I have a non ABS and used to use the rear brakes lightly but still use them while stopping. I learned the hard way on my first panic stop that on dry pavement when you are using all the front brake you can the rear brake is useless. I ended up stopping well short but locking the back tire even for that second took my focus off the front. Now I don't touch the rear brake until I am slowed to parking lot speeds. Of course on wet pavement when the amount of front brake that can be used is limited I would use the rear too if needed.
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Is there a "sport" setting for the linked brakes that reduces the effect?
VERY good mention. The answer is "yes".
I assumed the original poster knew it was adjustable and had already selected the "lesser" of the two linking mode. But should have been the first thing we asked...
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'08s don't have linked brakes.
Nor the 09's, I'm very happy with my brakes. :)
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I could have mentioned in my first post that I had already pulled the fuse for the ABS motor and found the brakes to be fine and the problem of the abruptness was gone. Although the warning was flashing on the screen constantly. I've since put it back in. Also should have said that it is noticeable when applying only front brakes. If I pull the front brakes and progressively squeeze harder I will feel a sudden change and the bike will dive and brake harder suddenly. As if a pop-off valve opens and give more pressure to the brakes. It's no where near as pronounced as when I use the back after applying front, but it's still there. I have tried both ABS modes and haven't noticed a difference with the problem.
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No dog in this fight but I am looking forward to how things work out. I'll be keeping my non ABS '08 till she's dead (or I find a sweatheart deal on a KTM350EXC!).
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I could have mentioned in my first post that I had already pulled the fuse for the ABS motor and found the brakes to be fine and the problem of the abruptness was gone. Although the warning was flashing on the screen constantly. I've since put it back in. Also should have said that it is noticeable when applying only front brakes. If I pull the front brakes and progressively squeeze harder I will feel a sudden change and the bike will dive and brake harder suddenly. As if a pop-off valve opens and give more pressure to the brakes. It's no where near as pronounced as when I use the back after applying front, but it's still there. I have tried both ABS modes and haven't noticed a difference with the problem.
- your description of your front brake use indicates a problem somewhere.
- C14 owners don't seem to have any complaints about the brake when they use the front brake lever (which actuates both front calipers and rear together) ,
- but opinions vary on the use of the rear brake pedal (which initially actuates the rear caliper and then with more pressure , the right front caliper together).
- if you use both the brake lever + pedal at the same time , you will feel a flutter at the lever/pedal as the linking systems goes a bit bananas.
- imho , whatever it is , maybe unlearn using the brake pedal and learn to use the front lever for braking.
.
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- imho , whatever it is , maybe unlearn using the brake pedal and learn to use the front lever for braking.
Hard to unlearn 20-something years of using both. We shouldn't have to. I hear the Ninja 1000 ABS isn't linked....
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- your description of your front brake use indicates a problem somewhere.
- C14 owners don't seem to have any complaints about the brake when they use the front brake lever (which actuates both front calipers and rear together)
I have to agree. Perhaps something is not right on his. I have never felt what he is describing, when using the front brakes..... and I have not heard anyone else describe that either... only when using the rear brake or attempting to use both- and in those conditions, the two modes should feel different.
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I too have no dog in the fight, I'm on an '09, but I'm curious. ???
Does this linked braking cause its problem at walking speeds?
Those are the speeds I'm using the rear most effectively and the front the least.
Keeps the suspension from pitching excessively = stability ;)
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Does this linked braking cause its problem at walking speeds? Those are the speeds I'm using the rear most effectively and the front the least. Keeps the suspension from pitching excessively = stability ;)
No, because the linking doesn't take effect at parking lot speeds, from what I remember reading on this forum.
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10-4, maxtog!
Maybe I've missed it. ::)
At what speeds are these issues occurring?
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Interesting MODIFICATION even if its in the wrong forum from what I've been told. ;)
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Maybe one needs to learn finesse while braking. I have no issues on my 10 but if I become aggressive on the brakes of course to front will dive.
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No, because the linking doesn't take effect at parking lot speeds, from what I remember reading on this forum.
At speeds less than 12 mph, the brakes are unlinked.
I do feel that Mama Kaw has the wrong pop-off valve, orifice, port size or whatever they are using in the ABS module to regulate the pressure between the front and rear.
I've been reading on the forums about how to disable the link without causing other problems and have come to the conclusion that if I just disconnect the rear brake lines going to the ABS motor and replace them with a line directly from the rear master cylinder to the caliper (from a 2010 non ABS) and plug the holes on the ABS motor it will be the fix I'm looking for. Of course I won't have ABS on the rear anymore but I can live with that.
There are five lines connecting to the ABS module.
1-front brake master cylinder to ABS
2-rear master cylinder to ABS
3-front brake feed from ABS
4-rear brake feed from ABS
5-front to rear feed which is the "Link")
I was thinking that if you'd remove/plug the front to rear feed line ("Link") and tied that port of the ABS module to the rear feel, you would un-link the breaks and still have ABS at both wheels. Now this was just a thought.
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Hard to unlearn 20-something years of using both. We shouldn't have to. I hear the Ninja 1000 ABS isn't linked....
+1 - The linked brakes on my VFR are seemless unlike my 12 C-14, however I have found that if I apply the front brakes first and then the rear, the negative effects are greatly reduced. For a hard stop, I ignore the rear pedal.
Ninja 1G is very tempting, but doesn't have the weather protection or the shaft drive of the Connie which were very important to me
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It would be NICE if Kaw had a 1,000 version of the Concours around 500lb with a lower seat , I'm 5'11" with shorter legs than most and I feel like I must wear my boots , incase I stop on stones or other soft, loose surface , 0-3mph is my only issue with the big girl , (I always liked smaller girls)
If I was to get a sport bike again it would be the 1000. I'll be 59 soon and I'm planning on riding the rest of my life , with all the baby boomers comming to retirement age It is something they need to think about.
I'll NEVER buy a Gold Wing I don't two up , I sport ride.
Lighter is better :)
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C10?
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If I remember correctly disconnecting or disabling the ABS won't affect the traction control because that is controlled by the ECU and secondary throttle plates.
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If I remember correctly disconnecting or disabling the ABS won't affect the traction control because that is controlled by the ECU and secondary throttle plates [butterflies].
Through the ECU controlling the secondary butterflies and ignition timing control. I believe you are correct, yes.
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- imho , whatever it is , maybe unlearn using the brake pedal and learn to use the front lever for braking.
This is horrible advice for a motorcycle rider. You should *always* be using the front brake lever and rear brake pedal together for stopping. Linked brakes or not... This is proper riding technique for maximum braking in any stopping situation. (including just stopping at the local 4-way stop...) The only exception would be for "specialized" riding...as in trail braking on track day....
Keeping my '08 ABS unless some new huge feature comes to a new model C14. Hopefully they will listen to their customers and add a "disable linked brakes" feature along with the two other modes....
Aaron
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This is horrible advice for a motorcycle rider. You should *always* be using the front brake lever and rear brake pedal together for stopping. Linked brakes or not... This is proper riding technique for maximum braking in any stopping situation. (including just stopping at the local 4-way stop...) The only exception would be for "specialized" riding...as in trail braking on track day....
Keeping my '08 ABS unless some new huge feature comes to a new model C14. Hopefully they will listen to their customers and add a "disable linked brakes" feature along with the two other modes....
Aaron
+1!
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I have a 2012 and am an aggressive rider. Why not, it's a sport touring bike with 160 hp? The linked brakes throw me a curve when I brake in a corner. I am used to trailbraking and it totally upsets the bike when braking in a corner. No problems on the FZ1 or even the big heavy C10. Very much interested in a solution, would love to simply disable them!!
Can someone please explain the difference betweeen the 2 modes? I read the manual and it just confused me. Also, if there was a combination of mode or brake application order that would alleviate this issue, I'd be all over it. I will be hitting Arkansas in 3 weeks and I have no desire to ride a bike that seems to work against me.
Is this issue the same between the various years with linked brakes? I know the OP has a 2011, I have a 2012 but my issue could be different due to a software or hardware rev. I hate the brakes on this thing. Powerful but have a 'vibratey' feel to them. I have wanted to ride somebody else's bike (brother has the same bike, a friend has a 2011, another friend has a 2010) to see if the issue is the same on all years.
Thanks
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You guys are killing me. I'd run track days on my C14 with linked brakes.
I've railed the mountains of colorado on it and there weren't any guard rails with quite the ways down.I was comfortable. Slayed the Dragon in TN/NC infinite times on the linked brakes.
I don;t expect the suspension, slipper clutch, nor the brakes to handle and perform like my track bikes have. But they're manageable on these big behemoth bikes ;D
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You guys are killing me. I'd run track days on my C14 with linked brakes.
I've railed the mountains of colorado on it and there weren't any guard rails with quite the ways down.I was comfortable. Slayed the Dragon in TN/NC infinite times on the linked brakes.
I don;t expect the suspension, slipper clutch, nor the brakes to handle and perform like my track bikes have. But they're manageable on these big behemoth bikes ;D
But... what's the point of linked brakes anyway? Why even put them on the bike? One reason I hate them is in tight maneuvers at parking lot speeds, you can use a little rear brake when at full lock, but if you hit the front brake at full lock at very low speeds, it can cause problems. I just don't see the need for linked brakes, except for those who do not brake properly in the first place.
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Maybe I need to do a Vulcan mind meld with Steve, but there's a lot of people complaining and and only one person saying "Yay!"
Maybe Steve is just way more awesome than me. Dunno. All I know is that I hate them and I think it's a high tech solution that had no problem to begin with. I trail brake with the front only. Also, when sport riding I only use the front. No can do with this bike.
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This is horrible advice for a motorcycle rider. You should *always* be using the front brake lever and rear brake pedal together for stopping. Linked brakes or not...
- on a linked C14 , using the front brake lever actuates the rear brake too ... automatically. You can squeeze as hard as you want and not lock either the front or the rear when you have abs.
- the "use both brakes" lesson went out , imho , with linking systems & ABS.
- you are of course entitled to do whatever you like since its your bike and your ride.
.
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- on a linked C14 , using the front brake lever actuates the rear brake too ... automatically. You can squeeze as hard as you want and not lock either the front or the rear when you have abs.
- the "use both brakes" lesson went out , imho , with linking systems & ABS.
- you are of course entitled to do whatever you like since its your bike and your ride.
Train yourself as if you do not have the technology and be happy it is there when you need it. Murphy's Law is always out there waiting to pounce. If it pounces when you are on a motorcycle, you had better have the best practices in use to save your neck!
Aaron
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Sticking my neck out here but I don't mind the linked brakes at all non-issue for me....been riding various bikes for almost forty years. Also love the ABS especially when you only have a split second to react.
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I've been riding street bikes since 1970, I've rode such JUNK compaired to this bike ::)I've heard about the junk tires, I put 7,300 miles on those junk tires, I bought P3 's when I was at 3,000 because of all the stories , but found no good reason to change .
I love power and taking corners fast and low, my front tire was bald on the sides not in the center.
I live in south Fl. where the roads are wet from sprinklers hitting the street , Ficus trees dropping their berries twice a year ( like hitting a ice patch) rain at anytime in the summer, day or night because of tropical weather, and I could not be happier , unless it was a 400 something lb bike, I guess you can't have it all, My last bike was a V max , lots of power but rough , nothing like the ZG 1400.
I love the gismos , windshield , ABS , Traction control , Tire sensors (except on cold days, need to fix that ) lights are great , no HIDs for me , I've added Hyper lights front and rear stop and turn and those brakes WORK just fine!
I did not renew my motorcycle lic for years because my wife begged me not to ride anymore , she knows I can't control my self If I have power at my disposal...(thats why I got a old mans Touring bike ;)) so they passed a law in Fl that you HAD to take a Riders course to get a MC lic like you never had one before, well I took the class with my friend (Mr Wheelie/ Endo) he moved out of state for two years to play LEO and had to take it also, I stopped the bike shorter , than they ever saw it done, a little Buell ( smoken tires) They also gave me the super hero of the swerve award , yeah kind of a joke , but I like putting it down in corners.
I have a friend who races and teaches road course and he said he NEVER uses the rear brake??
Yeah I know ours is always in use somewhat but I'm not going to lay it it a corner at 120mph like he does. Remove ABS , not on my bike.
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Maybe I need to do a Vulcan mind meld with Steve, but there's a lot of people complaining and and only one person saying "Yay!"
Maybe Steve is just way more awesome than me. Dunno. All I know is that I hate them and I think it's a high tech solution that had no problem to begin with. I trail brake with the front only. Also, when sport riding I only use the front. No can do with this bike.
I'm not saying I like them or am a big huge fan of linked brakes. What I'm saying is I railed the rockies and would do a track day with them. I DO NOT care. I DO NOT whine. The weight of the bike slows me down more than those brakes, and again I don't give a $#%^.
You know whats worse? Go around Road Atlanta International and drag your knee WITH A PASSENGER. You'll forget about the little C14 brake bump that I'm seeing so much bitter, grumpy posts about.
But having a little blonde chick %$#^ up the lap times isn;t anything to be bitter about either, and a knee puck scraping a little slower is still fun.
I'm not saying "yay" to the brakes, I'm just not onboard with the crowd that says this bike can't be ridden fast or safely or whatever it is you all are griping about for 3 pages ;D
Now THIS will slow you up:
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/R1%20stuff/roadatlantameandteressa1.jpg)
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:popcorn:
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- your description of your front brake use indicates a problem somewhere.
- C14 owners don't seem to have any complaints about the brake when they use the front brake lever (which actuates both front calipers and rear together) ,
- but opinions vary on the use of the rear brake pedal (which initially actuates the rear caliper and then with more pressure , the right front caliper together).
- if you use both the brake lever + pedal at the same time , you will feel a flutter at the lever/pedal as the linking systems goes a bit bananas.
- imho , whatever it is , maybe unlearn using the brake pedal and learn to use the front lever for braking.
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I would echo the above. The linked brakes have a hair trigger upon application of the rear brake. Go past a certain point, and the system dials in a very abrupt proportion of front brake. This observation has been documented in test reports, and by members on this forum.
Using the front brake only has helped my experience with the C14 brakes. Nevertheless, Kawsaki did a poor job with the linked brakes, and needs to go back to the drawing board.
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I also like to use the rear only to tighten my line a bit sometimes. Can't do that either. Love everything about the bike but the brakes.
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TIP: Honda linked brakes work fantastic (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/avatars/iconstirthepot.gif)
Don't ask me how i know this :D
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/Connie%2014/steveJborookesville/20110925-DSC_7166.jpg)
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But... what's the point of linked brakes anyway? Why even put them on the bike? One reason I hate them is in tight maneuvers at parking lot speeds, you can use a little rear brake when at full lock, but if you hit the front brake at full lock at very low speeds, it can cause problems. I just don't see the need for linked brakes, except for those who do not brake properly in the first place.
See post #26....... ::)
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I have never understood why the linked brakes. If I want front brakes I use them, if I want rear brakes I use them, if I want both I use BOTH. I don't need nor want some stupid computer making those choices for me.
Besides after 15+ years of racing I rarely use the rear brakes.
Can you get a 2012 or newer without the linked brakes? If not I'll be keeping the '08.
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I have never understood why the linked brakes. If I want front brakes I use them, if I want rear brakes I use them, if I want both I use BOTH. I don't need nor want some stupid computer making those choices for me.
Besides after 15+ years of racing I rarely use the rear brakes.
Can you get a 2012 or newer without the linked brakes? If not I'll be keeping the '08.
Hopefully they add a linked and unlinked mode in the future but I could imagine linked might be good for someone that had difficulty using one brake or the other due to a physical restriction.
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TIP: Honda linked brakes work fantastic (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/avatars/iconstirthepot.gif)
Don't ask me how i know this :D
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/Connie%2014/steveJborookesville/20110925-DSC_7166.jpg)
Steve, looks like a bit of karma landed on your front fender...too bad it missed the jacket. :)
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Hopefully they add a linked and unlinked mode in the future but I could imagine linked might be good for someone that had difficulty using one brake or the other due to a physical restriction.
Or perhaps a mental one. My original thought was it was some type of stupid move to compensate for the occasional idiot that thinks the primary brake is the rear brake and this helps to mitigate that.
If that is not it, I honestly don't understand the purpose.
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Can you get a 2012 2011 or newer without the linked brakes?
No
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If that is not it, I honestly don't understand the purpose.
Thank god I'm not the only one.
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I have always hated the linked brakes at all speeds. Even at 5mph in traffic. That was always where it affected me the most.
My 2008 non abs. had the best brakes I've ever had. I would have liked the abs. I had that bike 44,000 miles.
My 2010 abs linked has a horrible slow speed nose dive to it. I have never been happy with them, but love all the other things about the C-14. Which led me to another.
My 2011 abs linked has about the same feel as the 2010, but not sure how close yet. I just put the first gas in it this week. I'll know soon.
I'll have to take some time and read through the fixes of this. Sounds very interesting.
P.S. Maybe Steve doesn't realize it has brakes. lol. You are the lucky one if you can't feel it.
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They probably got tired of replacing warped front rotors and figured spreading the workload would help. :D
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What I don't understand is why they backed off their original engineering design on the linked brake concept.....
http://www.kawasaki.com/Content/pdfs/products/concours_QandA.pdf (http://www.kawasaki.com/Content/pdfs/products/concours_QandA.pdf)
Page 5
Maybe they decided the 10+ bikes weren't as exciting as the 08/09 versions.....
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I still had to replace my 2010 abs rotors due to warping.
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Thanks Jim that was interesting ;)
I LOVE my big Girl .
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I came across this 2013 review. If you skip to about 3:28 of the video you can here some of the thoughts from one of the reviewers about the C14 linked brakes. This does'nt help fix the problem for you guys but at least it confirms the issue must be relatively common. Hopefully Kawasaki is listening.
2013 Sport-Touring Shootout 1.0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnkpM-OsyZg#ws)
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What I don't understand is why they backed off their original engineering design on the linked brake concept.....
http://www.kawasaki.com/Content/pdfs/products/concours_QandA.pdf (http://www.kawasaki.com/Content/pdfs/products/concours_QandA.pdf)
Page 5
Maybe they decided the 10+ bikes weren't as exciting as the 08/09 versions.....
Yep, the first gen bikes are more exciting and so are the riders. ;)
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Yep, the first gen bikes are more exciting and so are the riders. ;)
:goodpost: :chugbeer:
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Believe all that, too (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/icon10.gif)
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Of course we believe it. We heard it on the Internet. It has to be true.
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Yep, the first gen bikes are more exciting and so are the riders. ;)
:goodpost: :chugbeer:
Believe all that, too (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/icon10.gif)
What? You don't believe me? :o Well then go ahead and ask any of us first gen riders, we'll set you straight!
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The ONLY argument I have ever heard for Linked Brakes is that it is safer for inexperienced riders.
Why would an inexperienced rider ride a 1400cc tourer? The first mistake they make (and we all make mistakes) and it's time to replace $1000s of plastic.
Personally I have tried the BMW, Honda and Kawasaki variants and the BMW is the least intrusive (rear brake pedal only activates the rear brake) but by far I prefer independent brakes. Having ridden both I would rather buy a used 2008/2009 than a new 2010- and almost all of that is because of the linked brakes.
I am sure they are safe but they don't mesh with how I want to ride. Yes I could learn a new way of riding but I also ride a 1989 C10 and learning linked brakes will one day result in me binning the C10. I've already had to upgrade the C10 brakes as compared to the C14 they were F****** SCARY, even though I'd quite happily ridden with them for well over 14 years ;D. ABS I can understand and all of the rest of the upgrades since 1985 when the C10 was designed make sense from one viewpoint or another, but linked brakes just seem to be there for the hell of it, or maybe so they could justify the price hike vs the 2009 model.
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MY ZX14 brakes weren't linked (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)
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I had my Concours for 37,000 miles and it definitely had this problem to the point where I largely quit using the rear brakes - which I agree I did not like doing so. This problem has been reported by many owners, and several magazine tests have commented on it. Like others, I have owned several other bikes with linked brakes that have performed flawlessly.
Kawasaki is full of **** to say they are not aware of the problem. You either spoke with the wrong person or they were lying.
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Yep, the first gen bikes are more exciting and so are the riders.
I would just like to point out that this was likely just an April Fool's Day joke.
:chugbeer: :rotflmao:
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And another thing. I have multiple bikes and have to ride 2 of them one way and this one a totally different way. So every time I hot foot into a corner, I gotta ask myself, "Wait a minute, which bike am I riding?"
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And another thing. I have multiple bikes and have to ride 2 of them one way and this one a totally different way. So every time I hot foot into a corner, I gotta ask myself, "Wait a minute, which bike am I riding?"
Exactly my problem also. I have a Gold wing with linked brakes, NO problem, I have a 2006 FJR with linked brakes, NO problem. Also have an SV650 but that is a whole different bike and takes a few minutes to get back the feel for it anyways. The brakes on the Concours should be transparent like other models from the competition. I don't want to modify the brakes to fix it but it looks like I may have to. YES, I wont have ABS in the rear if I do it, but I believe it will be much more enjoyable to me. I was hoping I would get lucky and someone with some experience with this problem had found a cure, but it hasn't come up yet. Guess I may be the guinea pig to test it out. I do appreciate the suggestion from one person on how he believed the brake hoses were routed.
I have been in touch with Kawi USA. The person I've dealt with seemed to be very helpful and has followed up with me by calling the dealer and getting them to try to diagnose it to see if there is a real problem. It does seem to me that some Concours have it and others don't, so maybe it can be fixed by the dealer. I doubt it though. My thinking is that the bike is under warranty so why not give it a shot. It might help if more people were to contact Kawasaki if they feel they have this issue also. Maybe it will get them motivated to fix this. It seems to me that it should be a simple software update, but it might not be that simple.
I will post what happens with it.
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I have been in touch with Kawi USA. The person I've dealt with seemed to be very helpful and has followed up with me by calling the dealer and getting them to try to diagnose it to see if there is a real problem. It does seem to me that some Concours have it and others don't, so maybe it can be fixed by the dealer. I doubt it though. My thinking is that the bike is under warranty so why not give it a shot. It might help if more people were to contact Kawasaki if they feel they have this issue also. Maybe it will get them motivated to fix this. It seems to me that it should be a simple software update, but it might not be that simple.
I will post what happens with it.
I believe the linking of the brakes is 100% mechanical through hydraulics. There is no fix that is not also mechanical- such as changing a valve. But do let us know what happens.
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I believe the linking of the brakes is 100% mechanical through hydraulics. There is no fix that is not also mechanical- such as changing a valve. But do let us know what happens.
I don't think it is mechanical. As an experiment I pulled the the fuse to the ABS motor and the brakes worked as if they were normal. As in no link, and of course no ABS. So, I think that the link is somehow controlled by electronics. To what extent I don't know, but maybe the software in the ECU has something to say about the amount of hydraulic force allowed through the valve.
After thinking about it it must be that the software controls it. There are two modes of braking balance to select from.
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I think that it's both (Software & Mechanical).
I "believe" that the software controls an electronic needle valve in the ABS unit. This valve will open up or close down (but wheather it can or can't fully close will need to be determined) the amount of brake fluid is shaired between the front and rear breaks. "IF" this is the case, then the software could be updated to possibly have the brakes unlinked "IF" the currently installed needle valve can be fully closed. But there may still be the need of replacing the needle valve in the ABS unit as it "may" be made so that it can't totally stop the flow between the front and rear.
Just food for thought as I'm just speculating here and I don't know if there is a electronic needle valve or not.
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I don't think it is mechanical. As an experiment I pulled the the fuse to the ABS motor and the brakes worked as if they were normal. As in no link, and of course no ABS. So, I think that the link is somehow controlled by electronics. To what extent I don't know, but maybe the software in the ECU has something to say about the amount of hydraulic force allowed through the valve.
After thinking about it it must be that the software controls it. There are two modes of braking balance to select from.
Interesting! Maybe it COULD be controlled by a software change, then.
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Kawasaki is full of **** to say they are not aware of the problem. You either spoke with the wrong person or they were lying.
If they admit that they are aware of the problem then they would have a responsibility to fix it.
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I think that it's both (Software & Mechanical).
I "believe" that the software controls an electronic needle valve in the ABS unit. This valve will open up or close down (but wheather it can or can't fully close will need to be determined) the amount of brake fluid is shaired between the front and rear breaks. "IF" this is the case, then the software could be updated to possibly have the brakes unlinked "IF" the currently installed needle valve can be fully closed. But there may still be the need of replacing the needle valve in the ABS unit as it "may" be made so that it can't totally stop the flow between the front and rear.
Just food for thought as I'm just speculating here and I don't know if there is a electronic needle valve or not.
Doesn't anyone have a service manual so they can look to see? Or perhaps the parts fiche?
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It doesn't show the internals of the ABS Modual. :-\
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Doesn't anyone have a service manual so they can look to see? Or perhaps the parts fiche?
available to all here:
http://www.ronayers.com/Fiche/TypeID/26/Type/Motorcycle/MakeID/3/Make/Kawasaki/YearID/52/Year/2011/ModelID/9426/Model/Concours_14_ABS_%28ZG1400-CBF%29 (http://www.ronayers.com/Fiche/TypeID/26/Type/Motorcycle/MakeID/3/Make/Kawasaki/YearID/52/Year/2011/ModelID/9426/Model/Concours_14_ABS_%28ZG1400-CBF%29)
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It's this and it's over $1000
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Yes, that's the part, but I haven't been able to find out anything about what's on the Inside or the Fluid Flow Paths.
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Here's your opportunity to be a pioneer.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kawasaki-ZG1400-Concours-ABS-BRAKE-PRESSURE-MODULATOR-/370175348872?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item56302b9088&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kawasaki-ZG1400-Concours-ABS-BRAKE-PRESSURE-MODULATOR-/370175348872?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item56302b9088&vxp=mtr)
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^ That's from a 2008 (Non-linked braking system). Need one from a 2011 (Linked Braking & Traction Control).
And yes, I looked earlier and all that I found were for the 08's & 09's. And yes, "IF" I had ZG's $$$, I'd gladly get 2 or 3 of them to open up and to figure out what's going on.
It apperas that there are more of the earlier ones (08/09) that are being parted out. :o ::) :-X
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^ That's from a 2008 (Non-linked braking system). Need one from a 2011 (Linked Braking & Traction Control).
And yes, I looked earlier and all that I found were for the 08's & 09's. And yes, "IF" I had ZG's $$$, I'd gladly get 2 or 3 of them to open up and to figure out what's going on.
It apperas that there are more of the earlier ones (08/09) that are being parted out. :o ::) :-X
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/avatars/lol8.gif)
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(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/avatars/lol8.gif)
:-[ (http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/swiqe.gif)
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Update
I took the bike to a local dealer and gave them a chance to ride. I knew that they would end up just saying that it's normal for it to act the way it does, but I figured it has a warranty so why not try. They pretty much towed the Kawasaki line that there's nothing wrong. As someone mentioned in an earlier post, Kawasaki doesn't want to admit a problem because they will then have to fix that problem. I have talked to Kawi USA and they still claim they know nothing of the problem. I wonder how many times they’ve been told and still try to claim they don’t know?
So, I went ahead and ordered the parts to try a fix on my own. I've got a brake line from a non-ABS 2010 C-14 coming from Galfer and will install it when I have the time. My only problem is how to plug the holes. Galfer is sending the bolts with the correct thread pitch but they aren't flared to properly mate with the compression fitting to then seal the pressure. I will have to have these machined with the proper taper. Does anyone reading this have a suggestion as to where I may be able to find the right bolts to plug the ABS motor block??
I know I will lose the rear ABS function, but I can live with that. I don't want to get into a debate on riding technique or ABS vs. non-ABS. I can always change it back if there is any problem doing this. I’ll post when I do it and let you all know what happens. Also, I’ll try to post photos. Thanks for the suggestions.
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It's a shame that you have to resort to this. Maybe one day Kawasaki will get a clue.
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One could file a complaint here...
https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/
If you think it's more of a defect.
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One could file a complaint here...
https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/
If you think it's more of a defect.
I just did it. Only took a few minutes . I encourage anyone that has enough of an issue with this problem to do it also. I can't say it's too much of a safety issue, but it sure makes me have no confidence in what the brakes are going to surprise me with. Also makes it not very enjoyable to ride. Please speak up and call Kawasaki also.
And thanks for the link!
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I don't think it is mechanical. As an experiment I pulled the the fuse to the ABS motor and the brakes worked as if they were normal. As in no link, and of course no ABS. So, I think that the link is somehow controlled by electronics. To what extent I don't know, but maybe the software in the ECU has something to say about the amount of hydraulic force allowed through the valve.
After thinking about it it must be that the software controls it. There are two modes of braking balance to select from.
When you pulled the fuse, you say the warning light was flashing on the dash. Is there a way to stop this from flashing that anyone knows of? I would gladly do away with the ABS to lose this crappy linked system. Also, where is this fuse? Is it under the seat with the rest of them? Excellent bike otherwise. Then, if and when Kawasaki decides to man up and fix this crappy system, you could just re-install the fuse.
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The fuse is under the seat, it's the fuse box behind the tool box. The fuse I pulled is a 30 amp marked "ABS mot". Not only does a light flash on the dash the whole LCD display flashes a warning. The brakes felt like a regular system and had great stopping power. I actually like the way they perform better with no ABS, but I prefer having the insurance of having the ABS to save me if I do something stupid. I just don't want it to be so intrusive and unpredictable.
I now have the bike apart to do some other things to it and have the parts to attempt a possible "fix". I'll post it when I finish it. Found an oil leak when I took the cowlings off so it may take a while to finish everything.
Post a complaint with NHTSA . https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/ (https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/)
Another discussion on COG-online http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,42446.0.html (http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,42446.0.html)
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Yea, I pulled that fuse today and saw the entire display saying "Warning! you will certainly die if you don't take this bike to the nearest dealer to have it fixed!" so I put it back. It makes the entire display useless until the fuse is replaced. Hopefully there is a way to eliminate this obnoxious warning so this fuse can be removed permanently.
Good luck with your oil leak. Is it the left valve cover?
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Did you ride the bike and feel the difference in the brakes? I noticed a major improvement in feel when the ABS motor is disabled. I would tell anyone curious to try it for a few miles, just remember you don't have ABS to back you up in a panic situation.
The leek was right above #1 cylinder (left side) in the valve cover gasket. Dealer ordered the gaskets and should have it done in a few days.
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Did you ride the bike and feel the difference in the brakes? I noticed a major improvement in feel when the ABS motor is disabled. I would tell anyone curious to try it for a few miles, just remember you don't have ABS to back you up in a panic situation.
The leek was right above #1 cylinder (left side) in the valve cover gasket. Dealer ordered the gaskets and should have it done in a few days.
I did not ride it to see the difference. I can see how this would fix the problem though. Makes it a simple mechanical system like normal. Just need to find a way to stop the warning and all is well.
Sorry about your leak. Unfortunately this seems to be a common issue.
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Maybe I need to do a Vulcan mind meld with Steve, but there's a lot of people complaining and and only one person saying "Yay!"
Maybe Steve is just way more awesome than me. Dunno. All I know is that I hate them and I think it's a high tech solution that had no problem to begin with. I trail brake with the front only. Also, when sport riding I only use the front. No can do with this bike.
I also have no issues with the brakes. I think there is a lot of mis-information regarding braking into the corners though. I have seen many posts where guys are talking about dragging the rear brake into the corner and trying to call it trail braking.
According to the pros, trail braking is applying the brakes to cause the front suspension to compress which change the rake and trail of the bike in order to turn in quicker.
Yet, I read where folks are complaining about the front end diving. ???
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I also have no issues with the brakes. I think there is a lot of mis-information regarding braking into the corners though
- agreed.
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According to the pros, trail braking is applying the brakes to cause the front suspension to compress which change the rake and trail of the bike in order to turn in quicker.
For me, using the front brakes into the corner is trail braking. Using the rear to tighten my line just a tad without making the bike change pitch (which it would if I used the front), I gots no clue what that's called, it's just a technique I learned from a magazine.
I just rode down to Austin and back with friends for the MotoGP. On Friday before the race, we sport rode on the great roads down there, did the Lake Loop http://www.motorcycleroads.com/75/550/Texas/Hippie-Hollow-Horror.html (http://www.motorcycleroads.com/75/550/Texas/Hippie-Hollow-Horror.html)
Then on Monday, we rode 3 Sisters,
http://www.motorcycleroads.com/75/576/Texas/Texas-Hill-Country-Twister.html (http://www.motorcycleroads.com/75/576/Texas/Texas-Hill-Country-Twister.html)
http://www.motorcycleroads.com/75/555/Texas/The-Three-Sisters-(AKA-The-Twisted-Sisters)--Ranch-Roads-335-336337a.html (http://www.motorcycleroads.com/75/555/Texas/The-Three-Sisters-(AKA-The-Twisted-Sisters)--Ranch-Roads-335-336337a.html)
We also went home via the Arkansas and Missouri twisties, OMG, I love those roads. Missouri County Road K, between Ellington and Annapolis is my favorite road in the world. Up and down and and left and right, billiard smooth pavement. AR SR 7 is no slouch either. And I've ridden California 36 from end to end, so I know a good road.
I rode hard, but couldn't ride like I can, because the brakes just hold me back. The whole time, I was waiting for the system to make up its mind on what kind of braking it felt like applying. When the OP gets this thing figured out, I'll be following his lead and dc'ing them myself.
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"I rode hard, but couldn't ride like I can, because the brakes just hold me back. The whole time, I was waiting for the system to make up its mind on what kind of braking it felt like applying."
Exactly.
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Sounds like a lot of you guys need to look up "the pace" and ride accordingly. There is no reason "on the street" to ride faster in the straights than you do in the curves. In some states 20 over is an automatic license suspension. Since most of you can take the curves at 20 over, how much over are you going in the straights?
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/ (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/)
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Very good read , much too logical thou. ::)
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Very good read , much too logical thou. ::)
I like logical
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Sounds like a lot of you guys need to look up "the pace" and ride accordingly. There is no reason "on the street" to ride faster in the straights than you do in the curves. In some states 20 over is an automatic license suspension. Since most of you can take the curves at 20 over, how much over are you going in the straights?
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/ (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/)
Because I want to.
Are you a cop?
All in good fun, TWA.
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Audie Murphy didn't win the Medal of Honor by following orders!!
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http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/ (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/)
Mom, is that you?
Be honest here. When was the last time you said, "You damn kids get offa my lawn!"?
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I'm fenced in, gated and cameras 2.5 acres, I just shoot ;D
I see you guys talk about the dragon and such , WAY too many driveways and TREES for me.
I've been racing boats since 1979 but I don't going racing around the local water ways.
Yeah I like wot from a light might hit 10+ over limit but then drop it down to 5over unless on the interstate . I have a class A CDL and twelve work trucks, I pay way too much in insurance with employees that have clean licences and have to fire those that get major infractions, can't fire my self ;)
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Because I want to.
Are you a cop?
All in good fun, TWA.
I've met a lot of cops and taken a lot of defensive driving classes. If my license gets suspended I can't do my job. Anyone can go fast in a straight line. What fun is that? I try to keep it at 15 over these days.
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Mom, is that you?
Be honest here. When was the last time you said, "You damn kids get offa my lawn!"?
Like Cuda, My 5 acres are surrounded by electric fence and locked gate. There are no kids near my lawn unless invited.
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Sounds like a lot of you guys need to look up "the pace" and ride accordingly. There is no reason "on the street" to ride faster in the straights than you do in the curves. In some states 20 over is an automatic license suspension. Since most of you can take the curves at 20 over, how much over are you going in the straights?
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/ (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/flashback/122_0911_the_pace_nick_ienatsch/)
I, like a lot of us here have read and are very familiar with "The Pace." A very sensible read. However, after riding, wrenching on and racing numerous motorcycles over the past 35 years, I have decided that I like to have total control over a machine that is carrying my being, and really don't appreciate a poorly designed system surprising me with abnormal braking inputs and screwing up my experience. Had this system been designed to operate behind the scenes the way it was intended, I would love it and keep it. I really don't give a brown piece of poo about anyone else's opinion of how they think the rest of the riding population should behave. I'd be willing to bet that we have all broken the "Law" and just maybe have gone faster than the posted speed limit at some point or another. Jeez.
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I, like a lot of us here have read and are very familiar with "The Pace." A very sensible read. However, after riding, wrenching on and racing numerous motorcycles over the past 35 years, I have decided that I like to have total control over a machine that is carrying my being, and really don't appreciate a poorly designed system surprising me with abnormal braking inputs and screwing up my experience. Had this system been designed to operate behind the scenes the way it was intended, I would love it and keep it. I really don't give a brown piece of poo about anyone else's opinion of how they think the rest of the riding population should behave. I'd be willing to bet that we have all broken the "Law" and just maybe have gone faster than the posted speed limit at some point or another. Jeez.
Thank you for saying that. Amazing how this thread got of topic. It should be a week or two until I try my possible fix. I will post here and on COG online about my findings. I'll try to take some photos also.
Thanks to whoever posted the link to "The Pace" . Very good article.
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Thank you for saying that. Amazing how this thread got of topic. It should be a week or two until I try my possible fix. I will post here and on COG online about my findings. I'll try to take some photos also.
Thanks to whoever posted the link to "The Pace" . Very good article.
What's amazing is that it stayed on topic as long as it has.
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. I'd be willing to bet that we have all broken the "Law" and just maybe have gone faster than the posted speed limit at some point or another. Jeez.
I never said don't go faster than the speed limit. I'm saying that if you take 45 mph curves at 65 mph, why do you need to go faster than that on the straights on a public road. It just gives motorcyclists a bad rap and adds to the statistics. This is a "sport touring" bike isn't it?
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I never said don't go faster than the speed limit. I'm saying that if you take 45 mph curves at 65 mph, why do you need to go faster than that on the straights on a public road.
I don't need to, but I do like to from time to time.
It just gives motorcyclists a bad rap and adds to the statistics. This is a "sport touring" bike isn't it?
For some. Depends on the mood. Depends on the day.
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I never said don't go faster than the speed limit. I'm saying that if you take 45 mph curves at 65 mph, why do you need to go faster than that on the straights on a public road. It just gives motorcyclists a bad rap and adds to the statistics. This is a "sport touring" bike isn't it?
(http://www.strutmasters.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/buick-roadmaster-with-rear-air-suspension.jpg)
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(http://www.strutmasters.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/buick-roadmaster-with-rear-air-suspension.jpg)
Is that your four wheeler PlaynInPeoria? No wonder you feel the need to take out your frustration on the Concours. LOL!
I'm glad I live where I don't have to own a cage.
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I have a pickup for taking the dogs to the park. It's hard to on the C14, but I am sure the dogs would love it. I think one of my dogs pulled a hamstring because I took the Dr650 to the park 2 blocks down the street and he's limping big time today. I have a Honda Civic (gray couple with tinted windows) for 40 mpg road trips.
Where do you live that you don't need a car?
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Where do you live that you don't need a car?
Middle Tennessee.
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I've posted my fix on the modifications section. I think I was successful. Check it out. http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=13655.new#new (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=13655.new#new)
Copied from other post. Photos are at that post.
I have accomplished what I set out to do, which is to eliminate the rear link to the front and the ABS system. The first thing I tried was to plug the holes on the ABS block and replace the rear line with a straight line from Galfer, see "block plugged" photo. After a test ride of hard braking and trying to engage the ABS on the front tire, the "ABS Error!" flashed on the display. I think what happens in that situation is the computer can sense that no fluid pressure is being allowed to go out of the ABS block to the rear brakes. Next I reattached some of the rear brake lines and then put my bleeder plugs into those lines, see "hoses plugged" photo. I attached clear hoses to those bleeder fittings and flushed the lines with a vacuum pump. I'm not sure if I got all the air out or not but the brakes feel fine.
I then test rode it again and everything works as expected. ABS on the front works perfectly. Under sudden braking at about 40mph I felt the ABS trigger and pulsate down to a stop. No more sudden braking and diving unexpectedly when applying front and rear together. The brakes feel perfect to me know. I then found some wet pavement (didn't want to ruin new tires on dry pavement) and locked up the rear several times to make sure that it wouldn't trigger an "Error" on the display. No problem. I think it is my solution.
The plugs that I used, see "bleeder plug" photo, were obtained from Galfer when I bought my rear Stainless line. The plugs needed to have a slight bevel machined into it to look like the original flare fitting to mate and seal properly, see "Flare fitting" photo. All we did was put it on a lathe and machine it with a 90 degree drill bit so that the plug had a 45 degree edge on it. It might be accomplished by putting it in a vise and using a drill bit of your own to make the concave surface. The material is chrome plated brass and I don't think it needs to be a perfect fit. It will deform to fit and seal on its own most likely. Just don't make the bevel too deep. You don't want the plug to bottom out before hitting the cone first where it will seal.
After having done it all I have realized that I could have left the original lines in place, disconnected them at the spot under the tank, plugged them as I did and bought one more flexible line like one of the ones in the photo "Hoses plugged". I would then loop it to connect the rear master cylinder to the caliper using the existing lines that were left in place but had been disconnected from the flexible ones in the photo.