clutch basket bad, warranty denied

[B.D.F.]

I would have loved to see that gear and tooth in person. Judging by the crisp break in the gear, it indicates two things to me (without having actually seen the gear to examine both the broken tooth faces as well as the faces of the adjacent teeth): the gear is extremely hard, at least 58 Rc, which is not a bad thing and actually desirable from a wear point of view, and that the tooth was overloaded in shear, meaning there was too much side force applied to it. Impossibly to say why without the gear and a microscope but it may have been a flaw such as an inclusion or existing stress fracture (an example of catastrophic failure based on a flaw no larger than a grain of sand inside a turbine engine forging is United Airlines flight 232) or, more likely IMO, an external piece of debris being carried through the meshing teeth of the two gears; there just was not room for the teeth and the debris and as the gear is extremely hard (Easy Boys!), it could not embed in either gear tooth so the tooth had to break sideways to provide room.

Glad it all worked out though and you got the bike back in what seems to be good shape. I think all will be well from here on out but then maybe I am more optimistic than  you are.... :-)

Brian

a link for reference http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=19841.msg245493#msg245493

OK I brought my C14 home today, without the plastic installed as I wanted to do some things while it's all off.

My fourth gear was replaced under warranty. One tooth came off and every time it came around there was that "Knock"
that I heard. So far I can only say that it sounds much better. I have only ridden it from the end of the trailer and then into my garage
so I won't have a complete report for awhile.

While I was at the dealer I took a cell phone photo of the broken gear before the dealer sends it off to Kawasaki (?).
He gave me the tooth or cog if you prefer.


When I purchased this bike new (2010 Model) in March of 2011, the first ride home from the dealer was only 40 miles. Two blocks from my house I heard a loud POP followed by a click click click as I traveled the remaining blocks. I managed to put a 5/16 machine bolt (not a pointy lag screw but a flat ended machine bolt) right through the back tire. I've carried that bolt in my tool bag ever since (approx 43,000 miles) and have not had another bolt in tire incident since. I plan to do the same thing with the broken fourth gear tooth as obviously the mighty mad powuh of Kipass needs some mechanical voodoo assistance. Wish me luck!

[maxtog]

who knows? do you think everyone that owns a C14 comes here?

Of course not.  And this site might not be a truly representative random sample- there could be confounds based on savvy/age/income/etc  (I took 9 credit hours of college statistics... unfortunately it was required).  But it is probably close enough for some reasonable extrapolation to overall reliability and what is or is not a common failure, wouldn't you say?

[VirginiaJim]

who knows? do you think everyone that owns a C14 comes here?

If they are wise, they do...  Where else can they go to have this much fun?

[kwakrider]

Well.........

[just gone]

......more likely IMO, an external piece of debris being carried through the meshing teeth of the two gears; there just was not room for the teeth and the debris and as the gear is extremely hard (Easy Boys!), it could not embed in either gear tooth so the tooth had to break sideways to provide room.

ehem...so you're saying that you suspect I do sloppy oil changes with dirt and debris all over the end of my funnel?..      
( )


Just to keep things stirred up    while we await a report back from Joel (JS_racer)..

I had been using Rotella T6 ever since the break-in period was over, however just before this trip (COG & MSTA Nationals) I switched to Mobil 1 4T. Do you suppose that Mobil 1 4T might have debris in suspension?
...my anecdotal evidence and Brian's opinion of what happened supports YES!   

If they are wise, they do...  Where else can they go to have this much fun?

EXACTLY!

[B.D.F.]

I usually do not comment on another man's funnel..... not because I think it is wrong or bad, I am simply hetero-funnel and have no interest in other funnels.

And 'dirty oil' ain't quite it- it would have to be a fairly large piece of very hard, stout (Boys!) debris that would have never made it through the pick- up screen and the oil pump.

It also may have been a flaw from heat treatment and actually pre- destined to break at some point without any excessive external force. As I said, going by the fracture surface, such as I could see it from the photo, it looked like a very hard, very fine- grained steel. Those types are almost always oil or air quenched, with air quenching being the MUCH, MUCH kinder, gentler process. But it is more expensive so guess which one is usually used? The rapid quench of oil tend to create a lot of localized stresses in protrusions (Boys!) and a part such as a gear will sometimes show micro- cracking at the radius of the bottom of the tooth because it is the smallest 'corner' and a natural stress riser. Such a crack is a future failure waiting to happen.

The other way around all of this is to use a semi- heat treatable steel; these are steels that only partially harden from heat treatment through the whole section but they are usually pack hardened, which leaves an extremely hard outer surface. Sorta' like cow dung laying in the field for a while: hard on the outside but soft and yielding on the inside. Fantastic material for things such as axles, larger gears (cannot have the pack hardening go all the way through a tooth) but for some reason, the Japanese do not seem to be big fans of the stuff. ?? And the fracture area on a piece of that kind of steel will clearly show the outer, harder 'skin' as well as the larger, rougher grain of the internal part of the break.

Brian

ehem...so you're saying that you suspect I do sloppy oil changes with dirt and debris all over the end of my funnel?..      
( )


Just to keep things stirred up    while we await a report back from Joel (JS_racer)..

I had been using Rotella T6 ever since the break-in period was over, however just before this trip (COG & MSTA Nationals) I switched to Mobil 1 4T. Do you suppose that Mobil 1 4T might have debris in suspension?
...my anecdotal evidence and Brian's opinion of what happened supports YES!   


EXACTLY!

[just gone]

....the fracture area on a piece of that kind of steel will clearly show the outer, harder 'skin' as well as the larger, rougher grain of the internal part of the break.

It looks that way to me in person, but I'm certainly no metallurgist and these photos don't show it very well. One edge appears to have suffered some additional post break trauma.
 (click on photo for larger)


 

[Riverszzr]

 OP can speak for himself but........

 Before the bike went to the next dealership over a month ago- I heard it in person and the noise was definitely louder

I then pulled the oil filter off and took it apart (it was like 4 tampon pads glued to a piece of plastic with no pop off provision.....and yes it was an oe Kawasaki filter---wtf did they do with their former pleated filter like every other filter on the market)---so..........OP will have to post up that picture and the picture of how much metal and aluminum rolled out of the filter when turned upside down--- I have never seen so much metal come out of a filter before and I have seen tons of blown up engines and filters.

At any rate, so I put a new filter back on and hauled it to this other Kaw dealer about 80 miles the other way from the previous dealer... a dealer the OP took it to immediately after the clutch basket was replaced and the noise was still there, a dealer where the OP was told to just drive it until it blows up, then it will be covered.... (it was not my idea to go there)

right off the jump the hack mechanic.....jumped to the conclusion that he was so good he knew exactly what the issue was just by hearing the symptoms and then hearing the bike....

 He claimed; A shift fork was bent and worn out from abuse, not covered............then he got defensive when questioned about it and told that it shifts like buttery smooth(he rode it and didn't dispute it shifts smooth as any bike should) and surely would not if the shift fork was bent and abused.......... and where is all this aluminum and steel coming from? (shown the baggy with the filter taken apart--which I told the OP to not hand over....we need it later!)--he strictly regardless of what was said or questioned went back to his opinion that he is so fucking good that he can diagnose internal engine noises without even looking at them....Maybe he should head over to NASA or Lockheed etc.... the government surely would have job for him at the FAA to listen to airplanes so none ever fail again right....because he is just that good........ NOT--dumb moron!

 At any rate-- Ma Kaw saw fit to send out a field rep who rode it, and disagreed with this tech whom vehemently argued he was right and it was from abuse.... He even put in the notes sent to ma kaw.... " sh*t wears out on these high mileage bikes, do people really expect everything is covered and lasts forever" siting it has a bent and worn out shift fork from abuse and it is now hitting the side of a gear, thus the noise only on the sidestand

So at any rate the field rep said no, I do not agree with you, the tech buried his head up his ass arguing he was right. In the end, The outcome was to get approval to pull the engine and take it apart and then "we" (meaning that tech with his head up his ass and a point to prove he is right) will make a determination- but that meant the OP was on the hook for atleast $1000 in disassembly costs, because we all know regardless what this "tech" found he would make sure a shift fork was bent and he was right and thus it would be denied.

ie--if not approved then the owner would be out somewhere upwards of $1000 and have boxes of pieces and hope he has them all, or have to hand over thousands more and hope they actually fix it---obviously that would be more than the bike is even worth at that point.

I called ma Kaw last week and talked to them for about 75 minutes, a little late in the game and was told as much, but..... there is some slim hope that possibly "my guy" there can present this to someone higher than himself and get a positive resolution.......... I will not enlighten you with all the details, but it would entail me doing all the work as a Kawasaki employee--------so much cooperation and giving will be required thus the "slim hope"


 So today an Ebay engine was purchased, and I will be pulling the old, and taking it apart to find the real problem, but the ebay engine will get a full service before going in and that will have to be "the engine" until and unless "my guy" comes through....
 But this atleast nets a real return for that $1000, and my time is mostly free, so in the end he gets more than what he would have anywhere else......well except maybe that original AR dealer where he should have left it to begin with, but hindsight is 20/20.... and the cost factor to haul it back now and then go back later to get it outweighs the cost of the replacement engine (apparently)

regardless of his (my guy) willingness or ability to push this through higher ups, this issue will not be dead at this point, I will find the problem and I will push ma kaw to the ends of the earth to make it right and based on the dealers responses and ineptness..... well lets hope they get reprimanded at the very least........
 A bunch of greedy good for nothing idiots at both the last couple places and the 6+ other local dealers who were called and the owner was basically told to **** off---but in a much nicer way, like "we won't get to it for atleast 6 weeks, our customers are our priority and it won't be covered anyways, it is worn out"

 I greatly look forward to taking this apart, documenting it and then going after everyone involved!
I also love a good fight and a good challenge, and I am like a rabid dog..... I never back down until and unless I am wrong........

I also look forward to seeing this "new" clutch basket.......wouldn't it be a hoot if they never installed one...

[Riverszzr]

It looks that way to me in person, but I'm certainly no metallurgist and these photos don't show it very well. One edge appears to have suffered some additional post break trauma.
 (click on photo for larger)

I have seen the engagement dogs break off before and once even have one get wedged in the shift drum locking the bike into one lone gear as the shift drum could no longer rotate...... but I have never seen the tooth of one of the gears break off----and I have seen a ton of broken transmissions.

I had this oddity come this past summer...........a con rod just broke right off-no spun bearing or anything- the rod just broke....and it is hard to say why, but I suspect metallurgy problems. But not knowing all the history of the bike and its use- maybe the thing saw redline all the time, even worse, no load redline?- But this was on a track bike, so no warranty worries on this....whew !

[just gone]

I've only met Joel once, seemed like a very nice guy to me. Regardless, for the sake of argument let's pretend he's an asshat, he still wouldn't deserve the treatment many of the Kawasaki dealers have given him. If "these high mileage bikes" are too worn out at less than 100 thousand miles then Kawasaki shouldn't offer unlimited mileage extended warranties. Tires, spark plugs, brake pads and rotors, clutch plates, and maybe even clutch baskets (maybe) are wear items, the rest should be covered. Period.
I'm glad my dealer isn't one of them (or anything like them).
I'm also glad you are in Joel's corner Lloyd. Best wishes to you and Joel with this mess.

[Riverszzr]

 I don't think he is an asshat,


Me on the otherhand, I make no qualms about calling out anyone and everyone for anything I see fit as; stupid, idiotic, incorrect, blatant lies etc..., so I have zero doubt many think I am an asshat........ but I am the asshat who gets sh*t done and gets it done properly.

So this should be a ton of fun!

[just gone]

So this should be a ton of fun!

   

[MAN OF BLUES]

thanks for getting involved, and being proactive in the process, I noted on the warrenty thread, prior to reading your comments here, all good, now there will be 4 people total hounding Kaw for proper service.
Please don't dis the warrenty, or the pricing I worked to get for our group, it ain't the paper, its the dealer... plain and simple.

I pretty much agree that the douche tech is going to "make his point" now, nd seriously hose that bike to suit his credabilty, very sad.

all I can say is I was lucky to have had quality service and dealers so far, especially the dealership that I giving us extended warranties for less than half what Kaw wants for them.... I prefer to mintain my bike, but when a covered item breaks, its up to the covereage to handle it.
so fa, so good for me, and. lot of other folks also...

[Riverszzr]

So perhaps this should go here.....and all my fun will be taken away....... That would be a welcome surprise if someone actually did what they are supposed to do when they are supposed to do it

But the engine is paid for and on the way already....kind of a dollar late and day short kind of deal, or in this case about 4 months late and lots of dollars short---and honestly, I still want to take apart the other engine and see first hand what is actually wrong......... I sure the **** don't trust anyone else to do it- they have all proven to be liars and not care.

Unfortunately it has not been just one dealership, it is both the last two and then the treatment by numerous others who just simply didn't want it at all and pretty much said........it'll take 6+ weeks for us to get to it, our customers are first priority and it is worn out anyways so it won't be covered.........more or less shooing him and his bike out the door setting the stage that it won't be covered regardless what they find

 So yes I appreciate your efforts, and maybe possibly this will get some positive resolution without me flying out to CA with a box of parts post disassembly and raising hell....damn and I was so looking forward to wasting my time and money

"just so you know, and maybe shed some light on this particular instance, I am currently in conversation with that member, and I believe Fred Harmon will be also shortly. The issue is with the particular dealership, and the way THEY have teken this on, it is not an issue with the KPP warrenty. That warranty specifically covers the broken part, and replacement. The dealership has stepped outside the acceptable realms of their obligations, and without giving more specifics here, I will say that what they told the person, and how they reported and documented it, was unacceptable. I am attempting to assist, and hopefully Fred will also, and get his issues brought before kawasaki, involving the appropriate personnel.

There are expected standards issued by Kawasaki as to obligations to provide service, this dealer is highly risking some flak, and in a nutshell, could be ostracized for their actions....

its unfortunate that a couple seedy sales outlets ruin a persons purchase experience, we are attempting to assist."


[/I agree, on the seedy.....they seem to multiply faster than one can get rid of them. And yes I agree on it is the dealers fault not the piece of papers fault.....my point was at some dealers and probably too many- the paper is worthless---not that what you offered was worthless.... it is a dealer issue, unfortunately too many dealers are just like these in my experience. But the wording is certainly ambiguous and open to much debate and interpretation, how any dealer interprets it....well that is the great unknown-- of course I see that the guy with the 4th gear got his covered and can read others did too....but there are far too many issues just like the one in discussion where the dealers simply read the paper in any manner they wish to not have it covered, so too vague IMO
b]

[B.D.F.]

Actually, those are outstanding photos and clearly show the failure mode; note the two sides of the broken face and that one is fairly flat while the other is more radiused. The break started on more shallow side and the more radiused side actually bent and shifted before actually separating from the gear body- that is why there are small flaps and shiny places on that edge, the tooth was already moving before it separated.

It looks like through- hardening steel that was oil or maybe brine quenched; more likely oil IMO. Given that close up, it is not has hard as I initially thought either.

Because it has such a clean break that shows absolutely no shift or movement on the starting side, I would say it was a small flaw that started the process off. If there is undue or excessive wear on the contact face, it might be a combination of a small flaw in the fillet coupled with a gear to the high side of tolerance that placed too much pressure on the teeth in normal use. Otherwise, it was just  a flaw that eventually crept across the entire fillet and caused the break directly.

Either way, the odds are incredible that you would get another flawed replacement gear so I would put it out of my mind.

And again, nice photos!

Brian

It looks that way to me in person, but I'm certainly no metallurgist and these photos don't show it very well. One edge appears to have suffered some additional post break trauma.
 (click on photo for larger)

[JS_racer]

OK,  here is a summary of my story.

While on a trip to Harrison Arkansas in June 2015 I heard a noise while riding. I looked up the closest dealership and found Clay Maxey, where I brought it.  They were able to re-produce the noise and as soon as they heard it they shut the bike off and began to try to figure out where it was coming from.  They were great to work with and their only concern was for me and my bike, being so far away from my home in Minnesota.
They took off panels and found that the clutch basket seemed to be bad, but they couldn’t say that this was ALL that was wrong with the bike; this was just the one thing they could locate in a short timeframe while I was on a trip. They advised me to bring it to a local dealer as soon as I got home to address the clutch basket and to see if they could reproduce the other more serious noises.
As soon as I got home I had a list of local dealers to contact. I have had all of my maintenance done by an independent shop, or I have done it myself since the purchase of the bike.
Since I returned home at the end of June, I asked my wife to call the different dealers in the twin cities area to see what their current waiting time would be to get the bike in to look at it, since it is right in the prime of riding season in MN. 
While calling the list of dealers she heard, on many occasions, that they were about 6 weeks out and then they would ask if the bike was purchased from them and when she said no they would say that their customers came first and they could look at the bike, but it would be used as fill in work and only after their regular customers had been helped.  Some said they would need ALL the maintenance records first, but then the same, it would be used all fill in work after their customers were helped first.
When she spoke with the Plainview dealer they said they would be able to get the bike in the next week and would be happy to look at it, as did the North Mankato dealer. We opted to take it to the Plainview dealer because we had an acquaintance that brought their bike there and thought they did a good job on the work they had completed. With that referral off we went with the bike to Plainview dealer.  As soon as I got the bike there and they looked at it I heard, “That’s a lot of plastic” and “That’s a bunch of miles”.  Had I known then what I know now, I would have not left the bike there.   
 After a few days I was told that they would not cover the clutch basket under warranty because it was “worn out”. I asked them how they knew it was worn out and they responded that the bike has a bunch of miles and stuff wears out.  We contacted the warranty hotline number and spoke to them and they said that the notes in the file state that the part is “worn out” and if I don’t like that assessment then I am free to bring it to any other Kawasaki dealer for a different opinion.  After a few calls and conversations Kawasaki said they would cover the clutch basket part, not the labor. So we had Plainview install the new clutch basket, all the while stating that it was not known if this was the sole cause of the noise I had heard. I told them how to reproduce the noise and they said they got it and the part is ordered and on the way. Additionally at this same time the windshield stopped working and this was replaced under warranty, with this fix there was a tab broken on the nose plate and now that rattles and is not set as it was when I dropped it off.  When I picked up the bike, 7 weeks later because there was not a clutch basket in the US or Europe, they assured me that it was fixed and they were unable to create the noise. They said all fixed and it was clear to ride it.  I took it out on a ride the following weekend and within a few minutes I knew that the issue was not fixed. I contacted the regional Kawasaki guy and let him know that it was not fixed with the clutch basket and he said I can take the bike to North Mankato dealer for them to assess.
On August 22nd we brought the bike down to the dealer in North Mankato and we were able to reproduce the noise for them in the parking lot. Sam Miller and another gentleman (service manager maybe) came out and listened to the bike make the noise and said that they could not say for sure what it was but ride it until it “breaks” and then they would be able to get it covered and fixed.  Since they were not sure what the issue was if I kept riding it and it “broke” then they would be able to more easily figure out why and what happened.
So we brought the bike back to the house and began wondering if I should ride it or not. I brought it to my independent mechanic and we pulled the oil filter off (it was not changed at Plainview after they installed the new clutch basket) and cut that open and in the pan saw many, many flecks of silver and the oil was very silver looking also. This told me that I should not ride the bike at all. After this I called the North Mankato dealer and they said bring it down and they would be able to fix it.  We brought the bike down there and I was able to make the noise for them, again, in the parking lot. The service manager (maybe) said he knew it was a bent shift fork and that was not covered under warranty because I could have caused that by missing a shift and that is what it is. I have never missed a shift on this bike and I am not hard on the bike, I have done all maintenance at shorter intervals.  Had I known then, what I know now, I would not have left the bike there either. They decided to have the regional Kawasaki guy come to the shop and ride it before they did anything with the bike. After the regional Kawasaki guy rode the bike he was not under the impression that it was a bent shift fork, he stated that it shifted effortlessly and that was not likely the issue.  After his visit the dealer called and requested that we give them the OK to move forward with trying to find out what was wrong with the bike.   My wife called and was informed that they needed our approval to move forward because until they get in there they won’t know what is wrong, she asked about it being covered under warranty and he said they were not saying it is or not covered, but some things just get “worn out”.  It felt like the dealer had already made up their mind that it would not be covered with the “worn out” statement.  Come to find out that on the file for the bike the dealer wrote “Shi* wares out on these high mileage bikes, do people really expect everything is covered and should last forever” A different contact recommended that we get the bike out of that dealer as fast as we could with a remark like that, very unprofessional.
At this point, with the dealers here in MN, apparently 80,000 miles on a bike is deemed “worn out” while a dealer in the southern states that’s barely broken in.  I do have the option to bring it back down to the dealer in Arkansas, 700 miles from my home, to hope that this could be covered under the extended warranty that I purchased on the bike. But why should I have to do that, why should I have to invest 4 full days of driving, hotel stays, gas for a truck, food expenses, wear and tear on another vehicle to bring it that far from my home, where I don’t know anything about the dealer except they are the only ones that have made me feel like they cared about me and my bike. All the while I have 15 dealers in MN that should be just as happy to do the work and not about how much money they can get if they determine that it is “worn out” and that is a clause in the extended warranty.

[just gone]

I thought I'd report on my experience and give what I hope is the "wrap up report". I want to give a good review of the dealer where I purchased my C14 and the warranty work they did. However I don't want everybody flocking to them with their warranty work unless I get approval first so that will be delayed a bit. If you've read my previous posts on this thread you'll recall that I was filled with dread and woe. Not so any more. Both Brian and Deziner were correct, I was over worrying it. The bike runs as good as it ever has and I'm not experiencing any strange new vibrations, nor any noises, electrical gremlins, or other irregularities. I rode around the area shifting up and down while listening for any noises that were out of place. I even turned on the outside mic on my Sena to listen. I only heard my top case rattling. Went home and removed it and rode some more and all was well. A few days later I loaded up the bike and went to the COG event in Russellville AR. and put over 1300 miles on it. I put paper towels under it last night after the return home and this morning they were all still dry, no oil leaks. I have to say that I was very pleased.

Now to be honest I might have been more accommodating to the service department than others would or could depending on their mechanical abilities. Because of the lower profit margin on warranty work I tried to make the job for them as easy as I could. When they had all the plastic off I went and picked up the plastic, my windshield, the tip over (Top Block) protection and some associated hardware so it wouldn't be laying around their shop. Then when the bike was repaired I trailer-ed it home semi naked and checked things over before I reinstalled the plastic and made sure everything was routed correctly. My C14 is far from stock with a cruise control and various lights and other wiring going many places that I just didn't think should be the service department's responsibility to restore. I'm sure that some here will disagree with me on that. Had I taken all my farkles to the dealer for the original install of same, well then that would be a different story. I installed them all myself and many are involved or in the way during an engine removal. All the hardware was returned to me in several marked plastic bags and I was only missing one of those little white plastic washers that go under the 5mm screws on the fairing. However, I had plenty of spares on hand because I loose one of those almost every time I remove the fairing. On the paper work it only showed 14.5 hours of labor. I'm assuming that is what the maximum is allowed by Kawasaki for the warranty repair, but I'm amazed by that. It would have taken me a month and it still would have been done wrong.    Naturally in the course of the repair, my coolant was changed, my clutch fluid was bled and replaced (I was dreading having to do that), and my oil and filter were changed.


So in the end I am very happy, discounting the initial bad luck of breaking a gear tooth, I've enjoyed the good luck of a successful warranty covered very complicated (IMO) repair.

I hope that Joel's story will end up as well as mine seems to have. 

[JS_racer]

great news Marty!!   

here is mine as of yesterday
old motor on the way out, replacement in soon

[connie and me]

I saw this my self today picking up my connie,  Lloyd kind of showed me around your bike, ( which we used to discuss mine) I hadn't seen one all stripped down before, its truly in good hands!!

[just gone]

So, Joel, Lloyd,

ANY UPDATES?

I'm assuming the used motor replacement went well?

Any updates on the original transmission?
I know it's winter up there, so there should be some nice indoor time available for a tear down?