Author Topic: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration) (Read 73770 times)

Steve in Sunny Fla · « **Reply #140 on:** September 24, 2014, 12:11:15 PM »

OK, I read to about p5, then got tired and figure I'd jump in with something stupid - if it's already been discussed, please disregard...

I've replaced a fair amount of TPS sensors in automotive applications over the years. I've never seen the adjustment point be from zero to 5v, or 0 closed, 5v open. Usually the closed position is around .6 to .8v . TPS's can also be adjusted to trick the ecu abit, typically by adjusting them to the higher side of the spec. This will typically help throttle response, raise auto trans shift points, etc.

I think the difference between auto applications and this ( a more rudimentary system) is that current auto stuff has tps's and also pedal position sensors, so that's comparing the 2 sensors to see that the throttle is doing what the input is calling for . In the case of the c-14 with throttle cables you have a manual input and the TPS just converts that to information for the ECU. I haven't looked at the c-14 TPS, but if it's non - adjustable then to me it would require calibration electronically. Improper calibration would be the same as an adjustable TPS being improperly adjusted during initial installation. Steve

Rembrant · « **Reply #141 on:** September 24, 2014, 03:25:38 PM »

Quote from: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 24, 2014, 12:11:15 PM

I haven't looked at the c-14 TPS, but if it's non - adjustable then to me it would require calibration electronically. Improper calibration would be the same as an adjustable TPS being improperly adjusted during initial installation. Steve

Steve, the factory TPS is adjustable...the holes are slotted. As Brian mentioned earlier, it would be set at the factory, and paint marked. They would set it so the correct voltage is indicated at WOT/100%, and then closed throttle or 0% would fall somewhere within the correct range for the ECU to see.

Quote from: B.D.F. on September 24, 2014, 08:17:27 AM

And that is why I specifically recommended [the guy I will not mention again] do some specific tests because they will yield data in the form of air / fuel ratios and especially, any changes in them. Things like 'it runs a bit better' are not really what I look for in 'definitive'.

Brian

Haha...

Unfortunately, I'm still having a little bit of a hard time with all of this and I'm not sure I can do any further testing. I've already shown that the ECU is seeing the same TPS voltages before and after TPS calibrating, and that has sort of been debunked already...lol.

I'm not sure this is going to make any sense or not, but I'm still finding this all very confusing as to how it is supposed to work....or furthermore, how the TPS would get out of calibration in the first place?

As mentioned previously...this calibration apparently only works on bikes that have a "choppy" or "hesitant" throttle. The procedure appears to do nothing on bikes that are already working fine (including my own 2010 C14). See, this is the part I have a problem with....why does it do nothing with bikes that are already working fine? If a calibration procedure will "correct" mistakes, then the same procedure performed in reverse (sort of) would un-correct the throttle, and cause a problem, no?

So, to add to that....what exactly is the trigger to put the bike/ECU into TPS calibration mode? Turning the ignition on? I don't think so. Turning the throttle twice and then turning the ignition off? Or, is the first twist of the throttle the trigger and then the second twist is the calibration?

In knowing what the ECU does with the TPS feedback, it's hard for me to grasp why/what would change to make the bike hesitate or become choppy? Also, in knowing that the TPS feedback does not effect the engine idle, why are people seeing changes in engine idle with this TPS calibration?

Why are there guys on the COG forum experiencing smoother shifting transmissions after performing this TPS calibration?

Somebody, somewhere has a lot of explaining to do...lol.

Hey BDF, I'm not sure how I'd even test this with my ECU/Logbox/wbO2 set-up....suggestions?...lol.

Rem

VirginiaJim · « **Reply #142 on:** September 24, 2014, 03:28:10 PM »

And the UK forum...

Mass hysteria possibly? Possibly the act of moving the throttle cables does something? Haven't had a chance to try it on mine yet and probably won't until Sunday.

Steve in Sunny Fla · « **Reply #143 on:** September 24, 2014, 04:03:21 PM »

OK, maybe it's all snake oil - but this IS the proceedure BMW uses. When I saw this thread on the other site I posted that it's the same as my 1200lt uses for calibration. Then I come here and see that SOP posted that it's the same for the GS, so some ecu's use this system and apparently based on results, kaw does too>

Rem - you mention why doesn't this recalibration mess up a good running bike - that seems simple to my mind, because when you sweep the tps on an already calibrated bike you haven't changed anything. So do an experiment like to OP did - purposely do a sweep with the TPS not going to base idle, and mess up the calibration on a properly calibrated bike. If things change, then you have to agree that there is truth to the system needing this sweep calibration.

One last point - I have been told that toyota throttle sensors have 2 hall effect sensors in each unit. (there are 2 sensors, but I cant swear they're hall effect, it just seems like a pot to me) The sensors work to monitor each other. if they get out of sync for 2 seconds or more, it fires a fault code. Well, it's supposed to anyway. I wonder if the kaw TPS is like that - does it have 2 outputs to the ECU? Steve

Rembrant · « **Reply #144 on:** September 24, 2014, 04:12:20 PM »

Quote from: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 24, 2014, 04:03:21 PM

Rem - you mention why doesn't this recalibration mess up a good running bike - that seems simple to my mind, because when you sweep the tps on an already calibrated bike you haven't changed anything. So do an experiment like to OP did - purposely do a sweep with the TPS not going to base idle, and mess up the calibration on a properly calibrated bike. If things change, then you have to agree that there is truth to the system needing this sweep calibration.

One last point - I have been told that toyota throttle sensors have 2 hall effect sensors in each unit. (there are 2 sensors, but I cant swear they're hall effect, it just seems like a pot to me) The sensors work to monitor each other. if they get out of sync for 2 seconds or more, it fires a fault code. Well, it's supposed to anyway. I wonder if the kaw TPS is like that - does it have 2 outputs to the ECU? Steve

Hey Steve,

I've already tried it on my own C14, several different ways, and I couldn't cause any changes. This is what I meant when I asked why doesn't it cause a problem on a good working C14?

I believe the TPS has only one input (5v) and one output (I forget the full range, but it's like 0.5v-4.0v). The ECU will throw an error code (#11) if the TPS gives a reading that is outside of the given full range.

I'm curious as anybody else is here and would like to know what works if it works, etc? I just need a little more info is all;).

Rem

gPink · « **Reply #145 on:** September 24, 2014, 04:17:04 PM »

Will having adjusted the throttle cables or changed the throttle tube fit into the mix anywhere?

VirginiaJim · « **Reply #146 on:** September 24, 2014, 04:36:51 PM »

Thinking alike...scary.

B.D.F. · « **Reply #147 on:** September 24, 2014, 04:50:01 PM »

Yes, absolutely: if it is indeed a calibration method, then it must be capable of miss- calibrating the system too. If it can only calibrate the system resulting in making it better, then that in and of itself speaks of 'magic' and would convince me that it does not work at all. Any / all adjustments (or calibrations) are capable of being in the right place as well as any number of incorrect places.

As to the shifting smoother thing.... well, I think that just proves the power of good suggestion, preconceived notions and finding the expected results. :-)

Well, as I understand this from Chet and others, the "calibration method" is to:

1) turn on ignition (but not start bike)
2) Open throttle fully
3) close throttle
4) open throttle fully
5) close throttle
6) turn off ignition

This apparently ends the procedure if I am following it correctly. Some people have mentioned opening / closing the throttle three (3) times rather than two.

What I think you can or will see on your O2 feedback is an altered mixture. Let's just suppose this does calibrate the throttle: that would mean if done incorrectly, it would miss- calibrate the throttle, right? Well, if you do the above things but go from 10% to 100% throttle, that should badly miss-calibrate the throttle settings, especially on the low end. If that happens, you should see your mixture change, lean I think, at low throttle settings. And then by again calibrating the throttle, the correct mixture should be restored, which your O2 sensor should show. At least that is how it seems like it would have to work to me.

You (Rembrant) and I have our own beliefs and they may be right or wrong but I <think> it is pretty easy to prove or disprove what this undocumented 'calibration' system is doing, or prove that it does nothing. Of course, I am saying it would be easy and asking you to do it so take my ideas with a grain of salt :-) I will also try this but will have to get the Power Commander software onto a new tablet to tie into my PC III or I will not be able to get the throttle to the same point twice (something like 10% from fully closed, but it has to be done two times). But we have all had our say, and I do not think there is any more room for logic or reasoning out whether this works or not and just move on to the collection of 30 seconds of data in two conditions ("calibrated" and "miss- calibrated"). At least good data collection would do it for me; I am sure some will debate this forever (hey- we're still figuring out the magic thingy that is KiPass, right?

).

Brian

Quote from: Rembrant on September 24, 2014, 03:25:38 PM

Steve, the factory TPS is adjustable...the holes are slotted. As Brian mentioned earlier, it would be set at the factory, and paint marked. They would set it so the correct voltage is indicated at WOT/100%, and then closed throttle or 0% would fall somewhere within the correct range for the ECU to see.

Haha...

Unfortunately, I'm still having a little bit of a hard time with all of this and I'm not sure I can do any further testing. I've already shown that the ECU is seeing the same TPS voltages before and after TPS calibrating, and that has sort of been debunked already...lol.

I'm not sure this is going to make any sense or not, but I'm still finding this all very confusing as to how it is supposed to work....or furthermore, how the TPS would get out of calibration in the first place?

As mentioned previously...this calibration apparently only works on bikes that have a "choppy" or "hesitant" throttle. The procedure appears to do nothing on bikes that are already working fine (including my own 2010 C14). See, this is the part I have a problem with....why does it do nothing with bikes that are already working fine? If a calibration procedure will "correct" mistakes, then the same procedure performed in reverse (sort of) would un-correct the throttle, and cause a problem, no?

So, to add to that....what exactly is the trigger to put the bike/ECU into TPS calibration mode? Turning the ignition on? I don't think so. Turning the throttle twice and then turning the ignition off? Or, is the first twist of the throttle the trigger and then the second twist is the calibration?

In knowing what the ECU does with the TPS feedback, it's hard for me to grasp why/what would change to make the bike hesitate or become choppy? Also, in knowing that the TPS feedback does not effect the engine idle, why are people seeing changes in engine idle with this TPS calibration?

Why are there guys on the COG forum experiencing smoother shifting transmissions after performing this TPS calibration?

Somebody, somewhere has a lot of explaining to do...lol.

Hey BDF, I'm not sure how I'd even test this with my ECU/Logbox/wbO2 set-up....suggestions?...lol.

Rem

Rembrant · « **Reply #148 on:** September 24, 2014, 05:12:22 PM »

Quote from: B.D.F. on September 24, 2014, 04:50:01 PM

What I think you can or will see on your O2 feedback is an altered mixture. Let's just suppose this does calibrate the throttle: that would mean if done incorrectly, it would miss- calibrate the throttle, right? Well, if you do the above things but go from 10% to 100% throttle, that should badly miss-calibrate the throttle settings, especially on the low end. If that happens, you should see your mixture change, lean I think, at low throttle settings. And then by again calibrating the throttle, the correct mixture should be restored, which your O2 sensor should show. At least that is how it seems like it would have to work to me.

Brian

Haha...ok, ok...I'll see what I an do this weekend. I'm on the road and living in "The cage" for a couple days;).

Gives me too much time to ponder these deep technical topics...lol.

Rem

Steve in Sunny Fla · « **Reply #149 on:** September 24, 2014, 05:24:27 PM »

I just tried to mess up the calibration on my bike. I did the same thing as the PO did in his video, with vice grips taking the place of his cruise control

. Bottom line, no change at all. Just more fodder for the gristmill. Steve

Stephen.G.Fiddes · « **Reply #150 on:** September 24, 2014, 08:00:50 PM »

Quote from: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 24, 2014, 05:24:27 PM

I just tried to mess up the calibration on my bike. I did the same thing as the PO did in his video, with vice grips taking the place of his cruise control . Bottom line, no change at all. Just more fodder for the gristmill. Steve

Did you take it for a ride afterwards? I'd be willing to bet you'd feel a difference. I didn't take a video of my ride after mis-calibrating it but it died right off the line.

B.D.F. · « **Reply #151 on:** September 24, 2014, 08:00:57 PM »

Let the bestus clam chowdah be your reward..... :-)

I have some distinct ideas depending on what you can do and what data you can gather with that Woolich setup. Let me know if you want to chat about it before hand. I really do think it can be done in less than a half- day easily.

I too will try it but I cannot measure air / fuel ratios, only note how the bike tends to run before / after and then after again.

Brian

Quote from: Rembrant on September 24, 2014, 05:12:22 PM

Haha...ok, ok...I'll see what I an do this weekend. I'm on the road and living in "The cage" for a couple days;).

Gives me too much time to ponder these deep technical topics...lol.

Rem

Steve in Sunny Fla · « **Reply #152 on:** September 24, 2014, 08:10:52 PM »

Quote from: Stephen.G.Fiddes on September 24, 2014, 08:00:50 PM

Did you take it for a ride afterwards? I'd be willing to bet you'd feel a difference. I didn't take a video of my ride after mis-calibrating it but it died right off the line.

I did. it ran exactly the same as prior to messing with it. I had warmed the engine and had the idle stabilized at 1k before doing the deed, and it was exactly the same afterwards. Seriously, no change for my bike, and yes, i can tell the difference on things like this. Steve

Stephen.G.Fiddes · « **Reply #153 on:** September 24, 2014, 08:26:37 PM »

Quote from: Steve in Sunny Fla on September 24, 2014, 08:10:52 PM

I did. it ran exactly the same as prior to messing with it. I had warmed the engine and had the idle stabilized at 1k before doing the deed, and it was exactly the same afterwards. Seriously, no change for my bike, and yes, i can tell the difference on things like this. Steve

Before you replied i went out and tried to "un-calibrate" mine and have it die. It didnt... I was surprised... It worked perfectly as it did before. So I tried un-calibrating it again and still worked great...

So now we have a few big WTFs...

Why could i un-calibrate it before, and it went back to being super choppy, but now it still works great...

There is most definately a difference because it would randomly die before i did the calibration.

I also wonder if as mentioned before, maybe it has to do with battery disconnect?

martin_14 · « **Reply #154 on:** September 25, 2014, 06:04:46 AM »

Quote from: Conrad on September 24, 2014, 04:46:30 AM

Martin, did you perform the procedure on your bike after it was warmed up or before?

after, why?

Steve in Sunny Fla · « **Reply #155 on:** September 25, 2014, 07:10:21 AM »

I don't know if it was mentioned, but the TPS relaibration is needed on the BMW's after the battery has been disconnected, so maybe once the computer sees the TPS range it records it and holds it til it's powered down next time, at least on the beemers. Steve

tomp · « **Reply #156 on:** September 25, 2014, 07:25:12 AM »

Yeah, I mentioned the BMW recal several pages back. I've done the recal before on a BMW of mine. Saw technique again on a BMW site post on choppy erratic acceleration problems with a boxer engine. Was done to recal the TPS... May have nothing in common with the C14, but it did make a change in the OP's video on this thread, with his C14. . .

Stephen.G.Fiddes · « **Reply #157 on:** September 25, 2014, 08:42:41 AM »

Quote from: tomp on September 25, 2014, 07:25:12 AM

Yeah, I mentioned the BMW recal several pages back. I've done the recal before on a BMW of mine. Saw technique again on a BMW site post on choppy erratic acceleration problems with a boxer engine. Was done to recal the TPS... May have nothing in common with the C14, but it did make a change in the OP's video on this thread, with his C14. . .

But it didn't have a change last night... I wonder if there's a limited amount of calibrations you can do on a single battery unplug?

Quote

Before you replied i went out and tried to "un-calibrate" mine and have it die. It didnt... I was surprised... It worked perfectly as it did before. So I tried un-calibrating it again and still worked great...

tomp · « **Reply #158 on:** September 25, 2014, 09:59:36 AM »

Remember that simply turning the key to on is only part of it. The red ignition on/off switch needs to be in the on/run position, too. Should hear the fuel pump pressure up, then do the throttle movements. Key On is just an accessories mode until the ignition on/off switch is turned tp on. Wonder how I know this???

Stephen.G.Fiddes · « **Reply #159 on:** September 25, 2014, 03:43:51 PM »

Quote from: tomp on September 25, 2014, 09:59:36 AM

Remember that simply turning the key to on is only part of it. The red ignition on/off switch needs to be in the on/run position, too. Should hear the fuel pump pressure up, then do the throttle movements. Key On is just an accessories mode until the ignition on/off switch is turned tp on. Wonder how I know this???

I just tried it both with the red switch on and off, and neither one un-calibrated it... Going to dig around for some more info...

News:

Poll

Have you tried the "TPS Calibration" Procedure? What are your findings? (After you vote here, Describe your actual findings in a post, and please note the mileage you believe the issue started, and the current mileage on your bike.)

Author Topic: Trying to narrow down an air/fuel issue... (SOLVED! - TPS Recalibration) (Read 73770 times)