Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: stewart on April 07, 2012, 05:55:52 AM
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I had the 2010 for 2+ years now and never experienced a KIPASS problem, but I've followed the various threads with intrest on both forums. One variable noted by others is the occurance of RF interference.
Well, I was filled up at the Gas station yesterday and the bike reported LOW Battery on the Transponder, started ok but as I road for the next 10mins of so the warning was display until I cleared it. A dinner stop later for 1.5hrs and the warning went away when I restarted.
So is the battery low or was this just RF interferance I wonder?
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Ive had the same problem at a Mobil fast pass station years ago... Could have been interference, if it happens again, away from any interference, put a new CR2021 battery in the fob
JJ
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On my first C14 this was the pattern to the battery going dead. How old is the battery? If the interference never happened before, then replace battery.
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On my first C14 this was the pattern to the battery going dead. How old is the battery? If it the interference never happened before, then replace battery.
Brought a crated new 2010 in March 2010, and no its never happened before. I always carry the mini FOB with me so I have no concerns. I'll monitor and if it dies I'll replace the battery.
Otherwise it was a nice fresh ride up to Maine, I love this bike.
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I had the 2010 for 2+ years now and never experienced a KIPASS problem, but I've followed the various threads with intrest on both forums. One variable noted by others is the occurance of RF interference.
Well, I was filled up at the Gas station yesterday and the bike reported LOW Battery on the Transponder, started ok but as I road for the next 10mins of so the warning was display until I cleared it. A dinner stop later for 1.5hrs and the warning went away when I restarted.
So is the battery low or was this just RF interferance I wonder?
Could be either. Gas pumps that use those "fast pass" type things have passive RFID readers in them. This means they have to project a fairly powerful signal that can power passive RFID fobs from a short distance. These might be on the same frequency as the active/passive RFID system used on the Concours and certainly could cause some strange interference.
That said, I have never experienced this problem on my 2011. AND, it seems typical for batteries in the active fobs to start to die at two to three years.
I wouldn't worry about it much. Just go with the flow. If you start getting the message more often, then just replace the batteries in the active fob and move on :) Remember, you can't be stranded, since the active fob is ALSO a passive fob and can be used to start the bike by placing it in contact with ignition key stem for a moment.
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Your gonna let a $2 battery keep u from possibly starting your bike? Just buy a new battery for your FOB already, it literally takes 30sec to replace.
I just replaced the FOB battery in my 2010 which i bought in march of 2010.
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Even the al-mighty powerful KiPass must have a fresh source of energy to perform at optimal levels.
(http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/LR%20700/SRW_2726-Edit.jpg)
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Nice one, Steve! :D
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Your gonna let a $2 battery keep u from possibly starting your bike? Just buy a new battery for your FOB already, it literally takes 30sec to replace.
+1...
Just replace the fob batt bro, sounds like that's what's happening, mine did the same about 3 months ago, replaced the fob batt and hasn't done it since...
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Your bike is a 2010, probably made in 2009 so when it was made the battery was put in the FOB, it's almost 3 years old, replace it. I replaced both mine about 3 months after I got my new 09.
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Your gonna let a $2 battery keep u from possibly starting your bike? Just buy a new battery for your FOB already, it literally takes 30sec to replace.
I just replaced the FOB battery in my 2010 which i bought in march of 2010.
Irrelevant argument. As noted in the post just above yours, the battery in the FOB is not needed to start the bike.
<snip>I wouldn't worry about it much. Just go with the flow. If you start getting the message more often, then just replace the batteries in the active fob and move on :) Remember, you can't be stranded, since the active fob is ALSO a passive fob and can be used to start the bike by placing it in contact with ignition key stem for a moment.
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+1...
Just replace the fob batt bro, sounds like that's what's happening, mine did the same about 3 months ago, replaced the fob batt and hasn't done it since...
Ok Ok keep your knickers on, I'll replace it after the Easter bunny comes.
I love this forum, its like being back home in Australia with my 3 brothers....plenty of opinions.
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Yes, it's a beautiful thing, isn't it?
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Yes, it's a beautiful thing, isn't it?
Who......his 3 brothers? :o
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No, Mr. Asshat, the diversity of opinions.
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Great thread- lots of twists and turns, with the occasional insult, all in response to a pretty logical and reasonable question. Great job guys! ;D
I do not believe any type of outside interference would cause the KiPass system to report that the fob had low voltage from the battery. Some gas stations have been reported to interfere with KiPass but they simply block the radio signal between the fob and the KiPass ECU so nothing will work until the bike is moved a few feet away from that pump.
It is most likely that you simply do have a weak battery in the fob. Just grab a package of new batteries almost anywhere and change both fob batteries. By the way, the battery is a CR 2025.... a 2032 <almost> fits but is too thick.
Brian
I had the 2010 for 2+ years now and never experienced a KIPASS problem, but I've followed the various threads with intrest on both forums. One variable noted by others is the occurance of RF interference.
Well, I was filled up at the Gas station yesterday and the bike reported LOW Battery on the Transponder, started ok but as I road for the next 10mins of so the warning was display until I cleared it. A dinner stop later for 1.5hrs and the warning went away when I restarted.
So is the battery low or was this just RF interferance I wonder?
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Great thread- lots of twists and turns, with the occasional insult, all in response to a pretty logical and reasonable question. Great job guys! ;D
Brian
I would expect no less of our members. :thumbs:
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Great thread- lots of twists and turns, with the occasional insult, all in response to a pretty logical and reasonable question. Great job guys! ;D
I do not believe any type of outside interference would cause the KiPass system to report that the fob had low voltage from the battery. Some gas stations have been reported to interfere with KiPass but they simply block the radio signal between the fob and the KiPass ECU so nothing will work until the bike is moved a few feet away from that pump.
It is most likely that you simply do have a weak battery in the fob. Just grab a package of new batteries almost anywhere and change both fob batteries. By the way, the battery is a CR 2025.... a 2032 <almost> fits but is too thick.
Brian
You can't change two batteries on the 2010s, unless you bought an extra fob. ::)
Hi Brian! ;D
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Yep, true enough- those with C-14s made in 2010 or later only have one fob with a battery in it. Us old- timers with earlier bikes have two fobs that require batteries. Just another sign of the changing times. Why when I was young and riding the first year model C-14, things were a LOT tougher. Not like the girly- man riding the current bikes. We used to carry dozens hundreds of fobs and even then it wasn't enough- you never knew if the bike would start or not. We didn't care 'cause we were tough back in 'dem days.... why I remember trying to ride a C-14 that would not start to school and pushing the bike both ways.... uphill, in the snow! You kids today whine and complain because you have to push the starter button to fire the bike up; back in the good ole' days, we used to start 'em by blowing into the intake ducts hard enough to turn the engines over and remember, we only had 15,000 weight oil back then.... Yep, that's the ticket.
:D
Brian
You can't change two batteries on the 2010s, unless you bought an extra fob. ::)
Hi Brian! ;D
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+1
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Yep, true enough- those with C-14s made in 2010 or later only have one fob with a battery in it. Us old- timers with earlier bikes have two fobs that require batteries. Just another sign of the changing times. Why when I was young and riding the first year model C-14, things were a LOT tougher. Not like the girly- man riding the current bikes. We used to carry dozens hundreds of fobs and even then it wasn't enough- you never knew if the bike would start or not. We didn't care 'cause we were tough back in 'dem days.... why I remember trying to ride a C-14 that would not start to school and pushing the bike both ways.... uphill, in the snow! You kids today whine and complain because you have to push the starter button to fire the bike up; back in the good ole' days, we used to start 'em by blowing into the intake ducts hard enough to turn the engines over and remember, we only had 15,000 weight oil back then.... Yep, that's the ticket.
:D
Brian
Back in the early days us 1st gen C14 riders had a heck of a time, as Brian pointed out above. One thing he failed to mention was the batteries we had to use in our fobs.
(http://www.themanyfacesofspaces.com/The_Bahgdad_Battery_2.jpg)
The one good thing about these batteries, they made it really hard to lose your fob.
The bad, try getting that fob into the pocket of your riding pants. :o
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Brought a crated new 2010 in March 2010, and no its never happened before. I always carry the mini FOB with me so I have no concerns. I'll monitor and if it dies I'll replace the battery.
Otherwise it was a nice fresh ride up to Maine, I love this bike.
I carry spare key fob also but if battery goes flat just hold main KIPASS transponder next to ignition (as per handbook) ;)
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If the battery is dead in a fob and you start the bike by placing the fob on the ignition knob, this is all good, however, when you're riding the bike with a dead battery in the fob, why won't the bike think the FOB has been dropped...? Why won't the bike display the "No Transponder" message and in 10 seconds shut the bike down?
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If the battery is dead in a fob and you start the bike by placing the fob on the ignition knob, this is all good, however, when you're riding the bike with a dead battery in the fob, why won't the bike think the FOB has been dropped...? Why won't the bike display the "No Transponder" message and in 10 seconds shut the bike down?
Great question! I'd like to know this also.
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Two important points here. The first is that KiPass simply cannot shut the bike down under any circumstances. That would be a disaster waiting for a place to happen; no authentication system that I am aware of can do this, they simply allow or disallow starting the bike but once the bike is running they are inert (other than possibly displaying a message but they cannot interfere with the operation of the bike / engine).
The second thing is that if the RFID portion of KiPass is used, the bike will not look for a fob again at any time during that running cycle. If the bike is started using the RF (remote) part of KiPass, then the bike looks at specific times to sense the presence of a valid fob- shifting into high gear, passing a certain speed and perhaps other specific points of operation. That is why if you start the bike with a remote fob and then drop the fob during the ride, the display will show a transponder error. But if the bike is started using the RFID portion (holding a fob close to the ignition switch housing) it is expected that that fob will be removed for the rest of the bike's operation so the system does not look for the presence of an RFID fob again once the bike is started. The fob will not attach in any way to the housing so it would be logical that after using the fob in that manner a person would put that fob in a pocket or similar for the ride.
The system is reasonably well thought out and has addressed expected situations such as dead fob batteries, etc.
Brian
If the battery is dead in a fob and you start the bike by placing the fob on the ignition knob, this is all good, however, when you're riding the bike with a dead battery in the fob, why won't the bike think the FOB has been dropped...? Why won't the bike display the "No Transponder" message and in 10 seconds shut the bike down?
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Good info! Thanks Brian.
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Two important points here. The first is that KiPass simply cannot shut the bike down under any circumstances. That would be a disaster waiting for a place to happen; no authentication system that I am aware of can do this, they simply allow or disallow starting the bike but once the bike is running they are inert (other than possibly displaying a message but they cannot interfere with the operation of the bike / engine).
The second thing is that if the RFID portion of KiPass is used, the bike will not look for a fob again at any time during that running cycle. If the bike is started using the RF (remote) part of KiPass, then the bike looks at specific times to sense the presence of a valid fob- shifting into high gear, passing a certain speed and perhaps other specific points of operation. That is why if you start the bike with a remote fob and then drop the fob during the ride, the display will show a transponder error. But if the bike is started using the RFID portion (holding a fob close to the ignition switch housing) it is expected that that fob will be removed for the rest of the bike's operation so the system does not look for the presence of an RFID fob again once the bike is started. The fob will not attach in any way to the housing so it would be logical that after using the fob in that manner a person would put that fob in a pocket or similar for the ride.
The system is reasonably well thought out and has addressed expected situations such as dead fob batteries, etc.
Brian
:goodpost:
Logical, forthright, and bottle-tight.
I'm gonna print this out and glue it into my owner's manual!
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.......and the almighty KiPass still gets our attention (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)
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Two important points here. The first is that KiPass simply cannot shut the bike down under any circumstances. That would be a disaster waiting for a place to happen; no authentication system that I am aware of can do this, they simply allow or disallow starting the bike but once the bike is running they are inert (other than possibly displaying a message but they cannot interfere with the operation of the bike / engine).
The second thing is that if the RFID portion of KiPass is used, the bike will not look for a fob again at any time during that running cycle. If the bike is started using the RF (remote) part of KiPass, then the bike looks at specific times to sense the presence of a valid fob- shifting into high gear, passing a certain speed and perhaps other specific points of operation. That is why if you start the bike with a remote fob and then drop the fob during the ride, the display will show a transponder error. But if the bike is started using the RFID portion (holding a fob close to the ignition switch housing) it is expected that that fob will be removed for the rest of the bike's operation so the system does not look for the presence of an RFID fob again once the bike is started. The fob will not attach in any way to the housing so it would be logical that after using the fob in that manner a person would put that fob in a pocket or similar for the ride.
The system is reasonably well thought out and has addressed expected situations such as dead fob batteries, etc.
Brian
Good info! I never knew that when started with RFID no further messages will occur. Whenever I get another low transponder battery message I will start with RFID until I can replace the battery.
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The second thing is that if the RFID portion of KiPass is used, the bike will not look for a fob again at any time during that running cycle. [...]
Just a technicality, but I believe the system is always RFID. It is active RFID when you use the wireless, remote, larger, active RFID fob. It is passive RFID when you hold a non-powered (dead/missing battery) active RFID fob OR the smaller passive RFID fob in contact with the ignition area. Either way it is radio frequency identification. At least, this is my understanding.
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Good info! I never knew that when started with RFID no further messages will occur. Whenever I get another low transponder battery message I will start with RFID until I can replace the battery.
See my above message. To start the Concours, you are always using RFID.
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See my above message. To start the Concours, you are always using RFID.
Never mind I didn't see your post on this. Yes by RFID I was (and I believe Brian was) referring to passive mode.
Both are certainly using radio frequencies and transmitting an ID but RFID typically refers to a chip or mode without a battery that responds just by the inductance from the antenna. A transponder does essentially the same thing but actively transmits using a power source such as a battery. So by RFID I was referring to the mode without battery that works by touching the bump on the back of the stove knob. I'm pretty sure that's what Brian was referring to as well.
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Never mind I didn't see your post on this. Yes by RFID I was (and I believe Brian was) referring to passive mode.
No problem. I am just trying to nip this terminology situation quickly before people start saying "RFID" to mean "Passive RFID". It could end up confusing some people in some cases (or perhaps not and I am just full of ****).
It is the same reason I *REFUSE* to call the passive fob a "credit card fob". It is nothing like a credit card in shape, dimensions, weight, appearance, or function. Better to call it what it really is.
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I think you are technically correct but I believe the acronym RFID is generally accepted to be a passive device. I do not know if there is even a correct term for the RF portion (the broadcasting portion) of a fob although there probably is and I just do not know it. I usually use the terms RFID to mean the passive side, and RF to mean the active portion of a fob. The whole situation really gets confusing to new people because the RFID fob is RFID only while the RF fob also contains an RFID portion internally that we normally do not use.
Brian
Just a technicality, but I believe the system is always RFID. It is active RFID when you use the wireless, remote, larger, active RFID fob. It is passive RFID when you hold a non-powered (dead/missing battery) active RFID fob OR the smaller passive RFID fob in contact with the ignition area. Either way it is radio frequency identification. At least, this is my understanding.
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Glad to see someone finally taking this issue seriously! For far too long people have been glossing over this issue and it is time someone stood up and stopped it! My hat is off to you sir, and if you decide to run for a political office on that platform (it is NOT a CREDIT CARD fob) rest assured that you will have my vote even if I have to move to a new location to deliver it. By the way, Mr. Elkhoof and Kirby are firmly on your side so never think you are alone in your crusade!
<yuk yuk>
Brian
No problem. I am just trying to nip this terminology situation quickly before people start saying "RFID" to mean "Passive RFID". It could end up confusing some people in some cases (or perhaps not and I am just full of ****).
It is the same reason I *REFUSE* to call the passive fob a "credit card fob". It is nothing like a credit card in shape, dimensions, weight, appearance, or function. Better to call it what it really is.
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I prefer to call it "The Thingamajig" :)
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I jam C14 owners all of the time.
It is amusing. Those C14 owners who know me laugh about it.
Novice C14 owners get all worried when their bike won't start.
http://www.legalspeeding.com/HARD-System.htm (http://www.legalspeeding.com/HARD-System.htm)
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I jam C14 owners all of the time.
It is amusing. Those C14 owners who know me laugh about it.
Novice C14 owners get all worried when their bike won't start.
http://www.legalspeeding.com/HARD-System.htm (http://www.legalspeeding.com/HARD-System.htm)
Huh? ???
I don't get it, maybe I haven't had enough beers yet tonight... What does the H.A.R.D setup have to do with this?? :-\
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Yeah I am confused as well... :o
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It will jam the KIPASS system all day long if the RADAR detector is turned off.
Once the RADAR detector is off, the HARD system thinks that there is active RADAR coming off of the detector.
It then transmits to the headset.
The transmission signal to the headset will jam KIPASS.
Not to mention Garage door openers, Chevy's, Fords, and every make of Car key fob withing 100 feet...
I appologize for confusing some with high tech electronics talk...
I forgot that most C14 owner were around before the light switch was invented and you still have problems grasping that concept.
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Light switches? You can get light switches now? What am I going to do with all those kerosene lamps? I sure missed that memo. :rotflmao:
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It will jam the KIPASS system all day long if the RADAR detector is turned off.
Once the RADAR detector is off, the HARD system thinks that there is active RADAR coming off of the detector.
It then transmits to the headset.
The transmission signal to the headset will jam KIPASS.
Not to mention Garage door openers, Chevy's, Fords, and every make of Car key fob withing 100 feet...
I appologize for confusing some with high tech electronics talk...
I forgot that most C14 owner were around before the light switch was invented and you still have problems grasping that concept.
Hmmm... interesting, I have that exact same H.A.R.D. setup on my Connie and have never had it interfere with the bike starting. ??? :-\
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:offtopic: sorry
I use this one:
http://www.marcparnes.com/Visual_Alert.htm (http://www.marcparnes.com/Visual_Alert.htm)
$59 and no need to move it from helmet to helmet. Works fantastic. I find with it mounted just above the speedo it reflects off the windshield and acts as a heads up display even in the brightest sunlight.
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Hmmm... interesting, I have that exact same H.A.R.D. setup on my Connie and have never had it interfere with the bike starting. ??? :-\
Your HARD system has to have power while the bike is off and the RADAR detector(Passport) must be turned off.
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Your HARD system has to have power while the bike is off and the RADAR detector(Passport) must be turned off.
That's fairly technical and confusing high tech electronics talk Mike, can you simplify it for us who are having trouble grasping the concept? ::)
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Your HARD system has to have power while the bike is off and the RADAR detector(Passport) must be turned off.
Do you mean power to the HARD box mounted on the helmet with the bike shut off??
(http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/IMG00421-20110714-1829.jpg)
(http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/IMG00419-20110714-1828.jpg)
Or do you mean power to the HARD box mounted/connected to the actual radar detector with the bike shut off??
(http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/IMG00415-20110714-1825.jpg)
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That's fairly technical and confusing high tech electronics talk Mike, can you simplify it for us who are having trouble grasping the concept? ::)
I understand... ::)
In the up position the lights should be ON. In the down position the lights will be OFF.
Next week we will discuss dimmer switch opperation and how the knob rotates.
The transmitter must have power. The RADAR detector needs to be off or unplugged.
The headset would be off, unless you like dead batteries.
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I understand... ::)
In the up position the lights should be ON. In the down position the lights will be OFF.
Next week we will discuss dimmer switch opperation and how the knob rotates.
The transmitter must have power. The RADAR detector needs to be off or unplugged.
The headset would be off, unless you like dead batteries.
Hmmm... well my transmitter (mounted to the radar detector) is powered on by the radar detector, and my radar detector is plugged into a switch that only has power when the bike is on, so I guess I can't have that issue...
You had me worried for a bit, I feel better now. :)
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I understand... ::)
In the up position the lights should be ON. In the down position the lights will be OFF.
Next week we will discuss dimmer switch opperation and how the knob rotates.
I sure hope that it's not one of them newfangled dimmer switches that you have to press in to turn on, those things really mess with my head.
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Hmmm... well my transmitter (mounted to the radar detector) is powered on by the radar detector, and my radar detector is plugged into a switch that only has power when the bike is on, so I guess I can't have that issue...
You had me worried for a bit, I feel better now. :)
Right...
But you also can't have fun screwing with cage drivers while you are having lunch.
Our group of riders has several HARD systems among the group.
They can wreak havoc in a parking lot with the average driver not knowing that a car key can open a door. :o
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FOBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB :D