Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: C1xRider on July 06, 2011, 09:20:10 AM
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I'm coming up on 15K, and was curious how much valve adjustment people were actually needing when they got there.
There are really 2 polls in one here. Everyone should select the first or second choice, then one of 3, 4, or 5.
If you took it to the dealer and didn't care or ask, then option 6 is for you.
If you haven't done your first valve adjust yet, option 7 is yours, and be patient and your time will come! ;D
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All within spec.
Now I'm at 25k, so we'll see what happens at 30.
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All within spec.
Now I'm at 25k, so we'll see what happens at 30.
No tweaking either, even though they were in spec? Some people are anal about making sure they are all exactly the same. ::)
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The shop did it and told me they was no adjustment done or needed.
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I actually trust my mech, I saw the innards and his chart, as well as the shims. Second only needed a few swapped around. I'm delaying the third, feeling OK with my decision to go 30K between checks.
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All within spec but the mechanic did adjust 7 to center. Some mechanics are honest...
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I had mine done at 18K, all were within spec although 3 were right on the edge. The Mechanic said they were probably fully seated and would not move much from there.
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Had mine done at 15,000 all in spec.
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So how much for the 15k check up including valves I'll be there soon got mine at 11k a couple months ago...........I know save the flames, weather sucked forever!!!
Mike
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Too new, haven't done it. A neighbor with a 2008 C14 did it about 2 months ago, everything was perfect but the shop still charged full price because they had to open everything up and check.
I think when I get to 15k, unless I hear or feel something is not right, I will skip it until 30k.
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Did mine at 17.5. All were within "spec", but most were close to ends of tolerances. My mech moved them all to the center of the range.
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I did mines at 20,000 miles. Only one Ex and two In were in spec and the two intakes were at .127. I changed 15 shims. I am in the process of doing my second check at 55,000 miles.
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I did mines at 20,000 miles. Only one Ex and two In were in spec and the two intakes were at .127. I changed 15 shims. I am in the process of doing my second check at 55,000 miles.
Interesting, let us know how they look on your 55K inspection. From the reports so far, they should not change much after the first one, but that remains to be seen en mass.
I'm not planning on taking my bike down to check them until we get stretch of some really ugly weather. Our riding season is just too short to do that. I may pop the valve cover at some point and measure, then button it up to ride while I get any bucket shims needed, then dig in again to 'adjust' them.
I never did hear why the manufacturers changed from the adjustable screw & jam nut design to the shim design. Sure makes the valve adjust a lot less convenient.
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Interesting, let us know how they look on your 55K inspection. From the reports so far, they should not change much after the first one, but that remains to be seen en mass.
I'm not planning on taking my bike down to check them until we get stretch of some really ugly weather. Our riding season is just too short to do that. I may pop the valve cover at some point and measure, then button it up to ride while I get any bucket shims needed, then dig in again to 'adjust' them.
I never did hear why the manufacturers changed from the adjustable screw & jam nut design to the shim design. Sure makes the valve adjust a lot less convenient.
I am hoping not to have to change any shims this time but if I have to, THIS IS our "really ugly weather" down here and I have 2 cooler bikes to ride. As for the shim under bucket I seem to recall that in general it was a design change more suitable for higher output, higher RPM engines.
It is maybe cheaper to build also.
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My shop mechanic says he usually only has to go through the motions on the 15K. Very rarily has to adjust one.
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........ I may pop the valve cover at some point and measure, then button it up to ride while I get any bucket shims needed, then dig in again to 'adjust' them.
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There is too much work involved to do all that buttoning and unbuttoning for me. Unless there is a problem its one unbutton/button per adjust for me. :'(
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I just finished measuring my clearances. All Intakes valves are in spec, all but 2 at .006.
All Exhaust valves are out of spec tight. All but one EX are at .006 and that at .007.
This is at 55,000 miles and again the first adjustment was done at 20,000.
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Just my opinion but that is a lot of work to do twice to adjust the valve lash on a C-14. Doing it once is more than enough for most of us, never mind twice (for the same maintenance instance).
Adjusting screws and locknuts require rocker arms, which have more mass than in- line valve systems like the shimmed type. Shim over bucket requires the shim also function as the cam contact point and so the shim has to be quite large in diameter, as does the bucket that holds it. They are very easy to change but are bigger and heavier than they need to be. Shim under bucket is a very small, light system that allows very high engine RPM due to light valve train components. It is also a more precise system than most (or all) others and will hold a lash setting for a long time. The downside to the shim under bucket system is that it is more difficult to adjust; still, we spend a lot more time riding than maintaining the bike so it is a good idea overall I think.
Brian
Interesting, let us know how they look on your 55K inspection. From the reports so far, they should not change much after the first one, but that remains to be seen en mass.
I'm not planning on taking my bike down to check them until we get stretch of some really ugly weather. Our riding season is just too short to do that. I may pop the valve cover at some point and measure, then button it up to ride while I get any bucket shims needed, then dig in again to 'adjust' them.
I never did hear why the manufacturers changed from the adjustable screw & jam nut design to the shim design. Sure makes the valve adjust a lot less convenient.
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Crap! I have 7 of the 8 shims I need in my stockpile!
Anyone willing to swap me their #20 (2.20 mm) for just about anything else. Or even 2 for 1
UPDATE: I got a call from Shoe, he is sending a couple of shims. Thanks Shoe!
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Just my opinion but that is a lot of work to do twice to adjust the valve lash on a C-14. Doing it once is more than enough for most of us, never mind twice (for the same maintenance instance).
Adjusting screws and locknuts require rocker arms, which have more mass than in- line valve systems like the shimmed type. Shim over bucket requires the shim also function as the cam contact point and so the shim has to be quite large in diameter, as does the bucket that holds it. They are very easy to change but are bigger and heavier than they need to be. Shim under bucket is a very small, light system that allows very high engine RPM due to light valve train components. It is also a more precise system than most (or all) others and will hold a lash setting for a long time. The downside to the shim under bucket system is that it is more difficult to adjust; still, we spend a lot more time riding than maintaining the bike so it is a good idea overall I think.
Brian
Thanks for the info Brian, and here I thought it was just to drive more people to the dealers to support their shops. ;)
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Crap! I have 7 of the 8 shims I need in my stockpile!
Anyone willing to swap me their #20 (2.20 mm) for just about anything else. Or even 2 for 1
This is exactly why I was considering the option of opening it up to measure, then put it back together while I ride it and wait for parts I might need.
It would be a gamble, but if there's nothing horribly out of spec, then procrastinating on it wouldn't make me feel so bad. If there was, I'd know I needed to get the shims, and get right on it.
It would be a bit of extra work, but with my hoist, and air tools, wouldn't take long (famous last words...).
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Don't you have to take the cams out to see what size shim to buy? Lot of work to do it twice. The worse part is getting at them.
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Not a tech here, what would I feel or hear if my valve need to be adjust? How about the performance? Thanks.
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Don't you have to take the cams out to see what size shim to buy? Lot of work to do it twice. The worse part is getting at them.
Yes. But for me this is the second valve check and I kept a record of what shims are in there so I know aht I need.
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Not a tech here, what would I feel or hear if my valve need to be adjust? How about the performance? Thanks.
You probably won't feel anything but I have heard that if the valves are in spec you should hear them "ticking" on a cold start up and the ticking should almost go away when the engine is warm.
But I would think it would be hard to detect just one or two missing ticks among 16.
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Don't you have to take the cams out to see what size shim to buy? Lot of work to do it twice. The worse part is getting at them.
Hmm, I thought they were marked on the side of the shims somehow. If not, that sucks! >:(
I was thinking I could simply check the gap, and if any were off, look at the numbers of the installed shims to make the map of what's there.
If I have to pull the cams and measure each one, then I'll have to line up a local source for the shims before I start. One of the drawbacks to doing things mail order these days, lack of instant gratification. :(
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You probably won't feel anything but I have heard that if the valves are in spec you should hear them "ticking" on a cold start up and the ticking should almost go away when the engine is warm.
But I would think it would be hard to detect just one or two missing ticks among 16.
Really hard, but you may detect one or two still ticking after the rest go quiet. However, since I think they get tighter as the valve seats wear, I'm not sure what good that information would do you. Plus, there's so much noise coming from the my engine, I doubt you could hear anything.
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Really hard, but you may detect one or two still ticking after the rest go quiet. However, since I think they get tighter as the valve seats wear, I'm not sure what good that information would do you. Plus, there's so much noise coming from the my engine, I doubt you could hear anything.
The shims are marked but they are under the buckets and the buckets are under the CAMS.
Yes, if most go quiet but a couple are still ticking they are probably too loose. If you hear no ticking or just a few ticking on cold startup then all or some are probably too tight.
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The shims are marked but they are under the buckets and the buckets are under the CAMS.
Bummer. So it's all or nothing (other than satisfying curiosity if they are way off or not). I was wondering if the markings would be obscured by the buckets.
Thanks for the info Lather. :) Did you find your last shim yet?
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Bummer. So it's all or nothing (other than satisfying curiosity if they are way off or not). I was wondering if the markings would be obscured by the buckets.
Thanks for the info Lather. :) Did you find your last shim yet?
Yes, Shoe here has some and is sending via mail.
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Crap! I have 7 of the 8 shims I need in my stockpile!
Anyone willing to swap me their #20 (2.20 mm) for just about anything else. Or even 2 for 1
UPDATE: I got a call from Shoe, he is sending a couple of shims. Thanks Shoe!
I'll repeat this again, as I have a few times already, and I hope this sinks in for those still awaiting the time when they do this adjust....
While you are pulling the buckets to see what shims are in each position the first go around, and have a map of the clearances in hand, as you Mic' each shim (just to be sure) MIC THE BUCKET ALSO AND RECORD THOSE READINGS IN THE MAP
then, when you realize you need "a shim or two" and can't get one, you can go back thru your map, and see which buckets you can swap ALSO to get closer, or even be able to get a correct stackup in the trouble spots..... the stackup on the bucket and shim combo will allow a much more diverse set of swaps using the existing parts you have, and many times you will actually reduce the shim purchases substantially. I found variations in Bucket dimensions of .002", which is very substantial...in reality it is the difference in the full range of the spec allowable/noted between tight and loose...I set ALL mine to the top end limit, and there should be no fear in doing this. It's logical, and allows the most duration between "torture" sessions.
going thru this job, with the time and care only you can do (as the shops will not take the time to do this) gives the options of documenting every shim and bucket dimension, subsequent inspections down the road only require checking the clearance that exists, and running your calculations again, with all that data recorded, to see exactly which shims you will need to obtain, and allow bucket/cup swaps to reduce the efforts also.....
see the chart i made on mine, and note the cup/bucket movements also (and the measurments on them)
(http://inlinethumb52.webshots.com/45491/2896805850015463693S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2896805850015463693biYSzi)
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2896805850015463693biYSzi (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2896805850015463693biYSzi)
you took the time to pull it apart, take the time to measure EVERYTHING. 8)
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I AM NOT DOING THIS. NO WAY, HELL NO! NO THANKS.
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I AM NOT DOING THIS. NO WAY, HELL NO! NO THANKS.
Aww, come on now, if you just add a few more lines with arrows to that chart, it's perfectly clear. ;D
Thanks MOB, for the excellent feedback and information! ;)
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did that really scare you guys off????
tough crowd..... :grouphug: :rotflmao: :hitfan:
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I can do some maintenances, but not like this. I am scare!
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Aww, come on now, if you just add a few more lines with arrows to that chart, it's perfectly clear. ;D
Thanks MOB, for the excellent feedback and information! ;)
oh, you mean like this:
(http://inlinethumb56.webshots.com/37111/2320832660015463693S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2320832660015463693xXWrxU)
heheheheheh I cleaned the sheet up and made a final copy, but the first sheet was a bit busy.... but I knew what i was doing.... my bike runs fine......bless Haroldo ;D
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Oh my gosh! No thanks.
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oh, you mean like this:
(http://inlinethumb56.webshots.com/37111/2320832660015463693S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2320832660015463693xXWrxU)
heheheheheh I cleaned the sheet up and made a final copy, but the first sheet was a bit busy.... but I knew what i was doing.... my bike runs fine......bless Haroldo ;D
:rotflmao:
That's more like it! I knew that first one was too clean to be the original.
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with the inch to metric conversions I have a hard enough time keeping focused on 32 measurements much less 48.
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I am pretty mechanically inclined IMHO......and I will not be doing this myself. Of course I will wait until I have around 20k on mine, I'm not having it done at 15k.
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I am pretty mechanically inclined IMHO......and I will not be doing this myself. Of course I will wait until I have around 20k on mine, I'm not having it done at 15k.
I was looking through the Periodic Maintenance section of the 2010 FSM (page 2-3), and noticed that the 15,000 mile valve clearance inspection interval is only for US and CA bikes. All other countries get a 26,000 mile interval.
I bet this 15K number is purely dictated by emissions (keeping the engine tuned for lowest emissions), and not really required for mechanical reasons. I'm sure other countries don't have different valves, seats, cams, shims, or heads than the US and CA motors. Why else would they do this?
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I was looking through the Periodic Maintenance section of the 2010 FSM (page 2-3), and noticed that the 15,000 mile valve clearance inspection interval is only for US and CA bikes. All other countries get a 26,000 mile interval.
I bet this 15K number is purely dictated by emissions (keeping the engine tuned for lowest emissions), and not really required for mechanical reasons. I'm sure other countries don't have different valves, seats, cams, shims, or heads than the US and CA motors. Why else would they do this?
hmmmm
Miles vs kilometers? 26,000 km = 15,155 miles?
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hmmmm
Miles vs kilometers? 26,000 km = 15,155 miles?
Good guess, but nope.
My manual indicates first valve adjustment at 42,000 km, or 26,000 miles.
For US and CA, it's listed at 24,000 km, or 15,000 miles.
I would think C1x is probably correct.
All of my other vehicles require more frequent maintenance because Canada is considered as extreme condition.
This is the first time I've encountered the reverse.
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Good guess, but nope.
My manual indicates first valve adjustment at 42,000 km, or 26,000 miles.
For US and CA, it's listed at 24,000 km, or 15,000 miles.
I would think C1x is probably correct.
All of my other vehicles require more frequent maintenance because Canada is considered as extreme condition.
This is the first time I've encountered the reverse.
I don't think that Kawasaki considers Canada as extreme. I think that for the purposes of maintenance/training/spares they just treat US and Canada as the "North American Market" and so we get lumped in with our neighbours to the south. Which makes sense from an economic point of view when you consider the size of the the Canadian market when compared to the US market.
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I checked mine at around 36,000 miles. All were in spec...a few were just barely though...on the tight side. I bought about a dozen shims and swapped the rest around. Set all to the loose end. I plan on checking again at about 60,000...if they haven't moved much I may never do another check.
It wasn't too bad...I had the DVD's and Cognosticators help.
(http://dolomoto.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/moto/IMG0003/1015192662_ZbVPi-L.jpg)
(http://dolomoto.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/moto/IMG0008/1015192742_sHLkb-L.jpg)
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Does the clearence tend to tighten or loosen up with use?
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Well, with all my valves set close to middle range at 20,000 miles and now at 55,000 all 8 EX valves at .006 or .007 I will have to plan on checking again at about 80,000. I also have to consider why all the EX valves have tightened up significantly while the IN valves have not moved.
Any ideas?
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Does the clearence tend to tighten or loosen up with use?
As I understand it, the clearance tightens due to the valve seats wearing, and the valves slowly sinking into the head when closed.
I suppose the first check is more to make sure nothing really bad has happened, and that the factory didn't screw it up badly when they put it together.
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Well, with all my valves set close to middle range at 20,000 miles and now at 55,000 all 8 EX valves at .006 or .007 I will have to plan on checking again at about 80,000. I also have to consider why all the EX valves have tightened up significantly while the IN valves have not moved.
Any ideas?
The exhaust will be subjected to more heat stress, while the intake will be cooled by the incoming air/fuel mix. If I had to guess, I would say it's running a little hot, unless this is normal for the C14 engine.
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I bought my C14 with 19,000 miles on it and was told that the valves were checked at 15,000. I checked my valves at 25,000 and all were towards the middle of spec, so I didn't touch anything. I am at 32,000 now and am not even thinking about touching the valves again until 50,000.
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I don't think that Kawasaki considers Canada as extreme. I think that for the purposes of maintenance/training/spares they just treat US and Canada as the "North American Market" and so we get lumped in with our neighbours to the south. Which makes sense from an economic point of view when you consider the size of the the Canadian market when compared to the US market.
I think we're saying the same thing.
Kawasaki is the first Japanese manufacturer I've encountered that does not lump all of Canada into the "extreme use" category.
Honda does lump us into the extreme category.
All of my periodic maintenance items are much shorter than the "normal use" category with Honda.
The thing that seemed strange to me, and that I think C1x has a good theory, is that the US and CA (for California, yes?) requires shortened periodic maintenance for emissions requirements.
Usually the stricter requirements are for California, with the rest of the US in the normal category.
Anyways, I would probably go with the time frame suggested for the rest of the world.
Damn, just thought of something...I wonder if this could void my warranty if I lived in the US or CA?
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In the FSM, "CA" is Canada, "CAL" is California.
I posted the same information on the COG forum, and Fred Harmon (COG Tech Editor) responded with this:
"I have spoken to Kawasaki about this, and they informed me that the valve train was designed to the longer European (24K mile) interval, but that the EPA testing criteria was done using the shorter interval to insure it passed the EPA regs."
So, read that how you like, but it tells me the valve inspection interval is every 24,000 miles (42,000KM), unless you're worried about how good of a job the factory did on the original assembly, or you're worried about possibly putting out a little more pollution than you might otherwise, or you're just anal and have nothing better to do than check your valves. :)
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I am down with 24,000 miles...
However, if you don't follow the owner's manual on maintenance, Kawasaki don't have to honor their warranty! >:(
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Sept 2011 Cycle World lists 26,000 miles as the valve adjust on the Concours. I'm guessing this is the latest model.
Misprint?
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Sept 2011 Cycle World lists 26,000 miles as the valve adjust on the Concours. I'm guessing this is the latest model.
Misprint?
Must be, or maybe they used their time machine to get advanced information for their Sept. magazine which they sell in July, and everyone else will hear about it next month. ???
My bad, I was thinking the non-NA interval was 24,000 miles, and the misprint was from that.
To be clear, Kawasaki states the engine was designed for 26,000 mile / 42,000 KM adjustment intervals. However, they also state they only tested for EPA compliance with 15,000 mile / 24,000 KM adjustment interval.
Therefore, if you live in North America, the FSM states 15,000 mile / 24,000 KM for the valve adjustment interval, while the rest of the world is listed as the actual 26,000 mile / 42,000 mile adjustment interval.
Hope this helps.
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Yes, the interval is 15K miles (or the equivalent distance in kilometers) for bikes sold in the US and Canada, 26K miles (or metric equivalent) for bikes sold everywhere else.
The reason for this appears to be EPA considerations but I have never seen that stated in any way by Kawasaki. If you know of any documentation, please point toward it as I have been looking for quite some time. Thanks.
Brian
Must be, or maybe they used their time machine to get advanced information for their Sept. magazine which they sell in July, and everyone else will hear about it next month. ???
My bad, I was thinking the non-NA interval was 24,000 miles, and the misprint was from that.
To be clear, Kawasaki states the engine was designed for 26,000 mile / 42,000 KM adjustment intervals. However, they also state they only tested for EPA compliance with 15,000 mile / 24,000 KM adjustment interval.
Therefore, if you live in North America, the FSM states 15,000 mile / 24,000 KM for the valve adjustment interval, while the rest of the world is listed as the actual 26,000 mile / 42,000 mile adjustment interval.
Hope this helps.
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Yes, the interval is 15K miles (or the equivalent distance in kilometers) for bikes sold in the US and Canada, 26K miles (or metric equivalent) for bikes sold everywhere else.
The reason for this appears to be EPA considerations but I have never seen that stated in any way by Kawasaki. If you know of any documentation, please point toward it as I have been looking for quite some time. Thanks.
Brian
All I have is 'second hand' information, but I have full confidence in the source. Here's his info: http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,27838.msg115586.html#msg115586 (http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,27838.msg115586.html#msg115586).
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Ain't doing mine until 26k miles -- I'll let you know how they are then.....
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Ain't doing mine until 26k miles -- I'll let you know how they are then.....
I'll also be waiting until this winter, when the bike is down for the season. Don't know what the mileage will be, but it will be less than 26K. I'm at 16,500 now, so we'll see.
I suppose a good rule of thumb would be to do them between 15K and 26K (from new, or the last adjust), when it's convenient to have the bike down for a week or more.
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Is it possible that the 26,000 mile adjustment is for bikes with O2 sensors?
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Thanks. I was aware of that source but I was looking for something from Kawasaki. The point being that I do not think they will ever take a side on that issue (maintenance interval differences), at least not an official side.
Brian
All I have is 'second hand' information, but I have full confidence in the source. Here's his info: http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,27838.msg115586.html#msg115586 (http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,27838.msg115586.html#msg115586).
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It does work out that way because non- US and non- Canadian bikes have O2 sensors as well as the longer valve lash check intervals but I do not think those two things are related. I cannot see how a closed loop F.I. system using an O2 sensor would lengthen the intervals between the inspection and adjustment of a purely mechanical thing like valve lash. The cause of both differences may be the same though- US emissions regulations.
Brian
Is it possible that the 26,000 mile adjustment is for bikes with O2 sensors?
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Thanks. I was aware of that source but I was looking for something from Kawasaki. The point being that I do not think they will ever take a side on that issue (maintenance interval differences), at least not an official side.
Brian
You don't consider that to be a reliable statement, and from Kawasaki? I know it's not in writing from them, but I doubt you will ever see that.
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I did not say or imply that anything was or was not reliable. Please read my post again.
What I said was that I was aware of that source for the information but was looking for another source, preferably written. Fred's statement came from a conversation he had from someone who is an employee or associated with Kawasaki; I do not believe that it represents Kawasaki's official position. I too would be surprised if Kawasaki did print any official position on that issue and that is why I asked you for clarification about the source of your information.
If the reason for the different lash check intervals is emissions based, and I do believe it is, then it is not likely that we will ever see any direct mention of that from any vehicle manufacturer.
Brian
You don't consider that to be a reliable statement, and from Kawasaki? I know it's not in writing from them, but I doubt you will ever see that.
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It does work out that way because non- US and non- Canadian bikes have O2 sensors as well as the longer valve lash check intervals but I do not think those two things are related. I cannot see how a closed loop F.I. system using an O2 sensor would lengthen the intervals between the inspection and adjustment of a purely mechanical thing like valve lash. The cause of both differences may be the same though- US emissions regulations.
Brian
I was thinking along the lines that the O2 sensors would satisfy regulations and allow for longer inspections because a problem would be detected sooner by the bikes system.
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I do not think there would be any 'detection' by the ECU until a valve actually burned and then the rider would already know because of that nasty skip.... ;D Really, the F.I. system cannot compensate or react to valve lash until that lash was so far out of tolerance as to be ridiculous.
I believe the valve lash schedule on C-14's in the US and Canada was due to an agreement between Kawasaki and the US gov't but do not know that that is a fact.
Brian
I was thinking along the lines that the O2 sensors would satisfy regulations and allow for longer inspections because a problem would be detected sooner by the bikes system.
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I do not think there would be any 'detection' by the ECU until a valve actually burned and then the rider would already know because of that nasty skip.... ;D Really, the F.I. system cannot compensate or react to valve lash until that lash was so far out of tolerance as to be ridiculous.
I believe the valve lash schedule on C-14's in the US and Canada was due to an agreement between Kawasaki and the US gov't but do not know that that is a fact.
)
Brian
Not compensate but maybe throwing an error code (before that nasty skip ;D) because of a slight loss of compression and a incomplete burn loading up the O2 sensor.
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I did not say or imply that anything was or was not reliable. Please read my post again.
What I said was that I was aware of that source for the information but was looking for another source, preferably written. Fred's statement came from a conversation he had from someone who is an employee or associated with Kawasaki; I do not believe that it represents Kawasaki's official position. I too would be surprised if Kawasaki did print any official position on that issue and that is why I asked you for clarification about the source of your information.
If the reason for the different lash check intervals is emissions based, and I do believe it is, then it is not likely that we will ever see any direct mention of that from any vehicle manufacturer.
Brian
Re-reading your post didn't change the impression I got from it. The tone made me suspect you may have also known something you were not volunteering.
However, it looks like we're both in sync, and on the same page, with the same information.
I suppose a nicely worded letter to Kawasaki, asking about the discrepancy / difference between N.A. and EU bikes, might get you the written explanation you would like. Either that, or politely ignored.
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I do not think there would be any 'detection' by the ECU until a valve actually burned and then the rider would already know because of that nasty skip.... ;D Really, the F.I. system cannot compensate or react to valve lash until that lash was so far out of tolerance as to be ridiculous.
I believe the valve lash schedule on C-14's in the US and Canada was due to an agreement between Kawasaki and the US gov't but do not know that that is a fact.
Brian
If the valve adjustment was off, it would negatively affect the emissions in a measurable way before it burned a valve. If they actually used a O2 sensor, and had preprogrammed limits for how far off the feedback could be, the ECU could throw an error code indicating the correction factor was outside of the limit.
However, since North American bikes don't have 02 sensors, it doesn't matter anyway.
I'll have to research this 15,000 mile EPA test a little. It would be sad if Kawi decided they could drop the 02 sensors, since the EPA test requires stricter maintenance intervals.
Given that closed loop systems should be more efficient under the typical conditions the bike would see compared to a fixed map open loop system, it would be ironic if it was this test that resulted in them being dropped for the US bikes.
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If the valve adjustment was off, it would negatively affect the emissions in a measurable way before it burned a valve. If they actually used a O2 sensor, and had preprogrammed limits for how far off the feedback could be, the ECU could throw an error code indicating the correction factor was outside of the limit.
However, since North American bikes don't have 02 sensors, it doesn't matter anyway.
I'll have to research this 15,000 mile EPA test a little. It would be sad if Kawi decided they could drop the 02 sensors, since the EPA test requires stricter maintenance intervals.
Given that closed loop systems should be more efficient under the typical conditions the bike would see compared to a fixed map open loop system, it would be ironic if it was this test that resulted in them being dropped for the US bikes.
Seems to make sense if the O2 sensors are the only difference.
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at 15k my valves were all in spec(did my own work). at45k had to adjust about half of them.
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The valve adjustment service revealed only the intake valve No. 4 was out of spec ( only 0.10 mm of clearance).
-David
Athens, GA
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So here is a question I don't think I've seen answered : What are the valve tolerance ranges for the non-US spec machines? Are they different from the US models or the same?
Is there any reason to believe that the wear characteristics are different between the US and non-US bikes?
Assume that the US/nonUS bikes have the same wear characteristics between them. If the lower mileage interval for the US was for emission reasons, one would think that the allowed tolerances would have to be tighter than for the non US models. If the wear characteristics are the same and the tolerances specs are the same, what's the point of checking early?
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Just got the bike back from the dealer. Had my 15k service done, but bike actually had 20k when I took it in. None of the valves required adjustment, however I did not ask how close they were to needing some. Total cost for the service was $649, increased a bit because I requested full synthetic motor oil. Dealer has also gotten approval to replace the front brakes under warranty, and the rear TPM sensor. Will take bike back in when the parts are received. My dealer is Primo Powersports in Lilburn, Georgia. They've never done me wrong, at least not in my opinion.
I think the valve check is scheduled too soon, should be 25-30k at least for the first check.
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i had mine done at the dealer at 15,XXX ......12 out of 16 needed adjustment...$ well spent.......
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Just got the bike back from the dealer. Had my 15k service done, but bike actually had 20k when I took it in. None of the valves required adjustment, however I did not ask how close they were to needing some. Total cost for the service was $649, increased a bit because I requested full synthetic motor oil. Dealer has also gotten approval to replace the front brakes under warranty, and the rear TPM sensor. Will take bike back in when the parts are received. My dealer is Primo Powersports in Lilburn, Georgia. They've never done me wrong, at least not in my opinion.
I think the valve check is scheduled too soon, should be 25-30k at least for the first check.
That seems a bit too high for a "non-adjust". :o
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That seems a bit too high for a "non-adjust". :o
That is why I am glad that I did my own for free.99!
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Just got the bike back from the dealer. Had my 15k service done, but bike actually had 20k when I took it in. None of the valves required adjustment, however I did not ask how close they were to needing some. Total cost for the service was $649, increased a bit because I requested full synthetic motor oil. Dealer has also gotten approval to replace the front brakes under warranty, and the rear TPM sensor. Will take bike back in when the parts are received. My dealer is Primo Powersports in Lilburn, Georgia. They've never done me wrong, at least not in my opinion.
I think the valve check is scheduled too soon, should be 25-30k at least for the first check.
FWIW - Top Gear Motorsports in Athens did my valve service for $275. Can't say anything bad about Primo, but I have always found them a little high (both bike prices and service). But they are a good dealer.
-David
Athens, GA
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FWIW - Top Gear Motorsports in Athens did my valve service for $275. Can't say anything bad about Primo, but I have always found them a little high (both bike prices and service). But they are a good dealer.
-David
Athens, GA
$275 for re-shimming? If so, that was a steal! I would happily fork over $275 to a dealer if they had a competent mechanic to do my valve check. I spent the better part of two days working on mine and I didn't even pull the cams (all 16 were dang near middle spec). But it was my first time digging into my bike, so there was a steep learning curve for pulling everything off.
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Just got the bike back from the dealer. Had my 15k service done, but bike actually had 20k when I took it in. None of the valves required adjustment, however I did not ask how close they were to needing some. Total cost for the service was $649, increased a bit because I requested full synthetic motor oil. Dealer has also gotten approval to replace the front brakes under warranty, and the rear TPM sensor. Will take bike back in when the parts are received. My dealer is Primo Powersports in Lilburn, Georgia. They've never done me wrong, at least not in my opinion.
I think the valve check is scheduled too soon, should be 25-30k at least for the first check.
there lies the major problem when you pay for this service....they didn't supply you with the map of what they found, or what shims were there....in this instance, you still do not have a clue as to what the clearances actually are, and they might be right on the line. Now, ride another 20k, and where will they be? you simply do not know. ???
I stress to anyone taking the bike in for service, that they INSIST on getting a map of what each clearance is, and that if shims were done at that time, the map MUST include what shims were in place, and what they put in there....
without this information, you still have to stumble thru any future service as if it was the first attempt, and cannot utilize the most valuable piece of the puzzle, which is having a map in hand showing what shims are in place and resultant clearances after service was perforomed, allowing you to simplify the next check by not having to remove the cams, to find out what is there...
It's amazing that people will pay for the work, and never force the data gleaned during the process, to be turned over to them. :'(
Semper Fi....
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there lies the major problem when you pay for this service....they didn't supply you with the map of what they found, or what shims were there....in this instance, you still do not have a clue as to what the clearances actually are, and they might be right on the line. Now, ride another 20k, and where will they be? you simply do not know. ???
I stress to anyone taking the bike in for service, that they INSIST on getting a map of what each clearance is, and that if shims were done at that time, the map MUST include what shims were in place, and what they put in there....
without this information, you still have to stumble thru any future service as if it was the first attempt, and cannot utilize the most valuable piece of the puzzle, which is having a map in hand showing what shims are in place and resultant clearances after service was perforomed, allowing you to simplify the next check by not having to remove the cams, to find out what is there...
It's amazing that people will pay for the work, and never force the data gleaned during the process, to be turned over to them. :'(
Semper Fi....
I agree, but I'm curious - how many folks can confirm that their dealer was willing on doing so?
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I agree, but I'm curious - how many folks can confirm that their dealer was willing on doing so?
I got the map sheet from the dealer with no problems or complaints from them. I just asked them to save it for me when I dropped off the bike. The map sheet even had plenty of oil smug marks on it. :-)
-David
Athens, GA
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$275 for re-shimming? If so, that was a steal! I would happily fork over $275 to a dealer if they had a competent mechanic to do my valve check. I spent the better part of two days working on mine and I didn't even pull the cams (all 16 were dang near middle spec). But it was my first time digging into my bike, so there was a steep learning curve for pulling everything off.
Which is exactly why I let them do it. Really good mechanics - counter staff not so much, but they do know to talk/ask questions to the mechanic. Plus their shop rate is $65 which I think is pretty much unheard of right now.
I have always tried to treat the mechanics with respect and let them know that I understand what they are doing and in a perfect world I would do more of my own maintenance, but stress that I trust them to do me right. They usually do. Sure there are bad apples out there, but I still believe that most mechanics are doing a job that they love and want to do it right. The problems people have are typically with the owners and parts manager of the dealership.
-David
Athens, GA
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I did my first valve check and adjust recently at 66,500km. All were in spec but at or near min. I tried in vain to do the metric thing but found that it confusing so I reverted to thou (being an older mechanic) and it was then so simple to get my head around what I was looking for after taking the cams in and out a couple of times. >:( I aimed for setting max spec on all valves so most required .002" thinner shims and a few .003". As the shims come in .001" increments I simply needed shims 2 or 3 sizes smaller than what was in there. I used both Kaw and Honda (half the price) shims as neither had all the shims I needed after I swapped some around. I checked both local bike shops but they, like me, had HotCams shim kits which are in .002" increments and I'm a bit fussy so I took the time to wait and order the ones I wanted as I was in no hurry to have it finished.
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I agree, but I'm curious - how many folks can confirm that their dealer was willing on doing so?
I assume nobody can confirm it...that is the problem, or moreso, the problem is that nobody TELLS THE DEALER that they EXPECT to see this data when the job is complete....
I stand strong telling anyone that intends to let someone "do your valves" that they must stress to them right up front, that you want/expect that shim / measurement map resultant from the service, there is no excuse for not supplying it when you demand up front that it is recorded for you. It takes approx. 5 minutes of total time expended to write each one down....c'mon. :banghead: :nuts: :deadhorse: :thumbs:
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first check at 29000 found all intake too tight and exhaust at lower limit
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FWIW - Top Gear Motorsports in Athens did my valve service for $275. Can't say anything bad about Primo, but I have always found them a little high (both bike prices and service). But they are a good dealer.
-David
Athens, GA
how long was the bike out of service? I may have to come down there for that price!!!