15K Valves: How bad were they?

[B.D.F.]

Thanks. I was aware of that source but I was looking for something from Kawasaki. The point being that I do not think they will ever take a side on that issue (maintenance interval differences), at least not an official side.

Brian

All I have is 'second hand' information, but I have full confidence in the source.  Here's his info: http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,27838.msg115586.html#msg115586.

[B.D.F.]

It does work out that way because non- US and non- Canadian bikes have O2 sensors as well as the longer valve lash check intervals but I do not think those two things are related. I cannot see how a closed loop F.I. system using an O2 sensor would lengthen the intervals between the inspection and adjustment of a purely mechanical thing like valve lash. The cause of both differences may be the same though- US emissions regulations.

Brian

Is it possible that the 26,000 mile adjustment is for bikes with O2 sensors?

[C1xRider]

Thanks. I was aware of that source but I was looking for something from Kawasaki. The point being that I do not think they will ever take a side on that issue (maintenance interval differences), at least not an official side.

Brian

You don't consider that to be a reliable statement, and from Kawasaki?  I know it's not in writing from them, but I doubt you will ever see that.

[B.D.F.]

I did not say or imply that anything was or was not reliable. Please read my post again.

What I said was that I was aware of that source for the information but was looking for another source, preferably written. Fred's statement came from a conversation he had from someone who is an employee or associated with Kawasaki; I do not believe that it represents Kawasaki's official position. I too would be surprised if Kawasaki did print any official position on that issue and that is why I asked you for clarification about the source of your information.

If the reason for the different lash check intervals is emissions based, and I do believe it is, then it is not likely that we will ever see any direct mention of that from any vehicle manufacturer.

Brian

You don't consider that to be a reliable statement, and from Kawasaki?  I know it's not in writing from them, but I doubt you will ever see that.

[Zteve]

It does work out that way because non- US and non- Canadian bikes have O2 sensors as well as the longer valve lash check intervals but I do not think those two things are related. I cannot see how a closed loop F.I. system using an O2 sensor would lengthen the intervals between the inspection and adjustment of a purely mechanical thing like valve lash. The cause of both differences may be the same though- US emissions regulations.

Brian

I was thinking along the lines that the O2 sensors would satisfy regulations and allow for longer inspections because a problem would be detected sooner by the bikes system.

[B.D.F.]

I do not think there would be any 'detection' by the ECU until a valve actually burned and then the rider would already know because of that nasty skip....    Really, the F.I. system cannot compensate or react to valve lash until that lash was so far out of tolerance as to be ridiculous.

I believe the valve lash schedule on C-14's in the US and Canada was due to an agreement between Kawasaki and the US gov't but do not know that that is a fact.

Brian

I was thinking along the lines that the O2 sensors would satisfy regulations and allow for longer inspections because a problem would be detected sooner by the bikes system.

[Zteve]

I do not think there would be any 'detection' by the ECU until a valve actually burned and then the rider would already know because of that nasty skip....    Really, the F.I. system cannot compensate or react to valve lash until that lash was so far out of tolerance as to be ridiculous.

I believe the valve lash schedule on C-14's in the US and Canada was due to an agreement between Kawasaki and the US gov't but do not know that that is a fact.
)
Brian

Not compensate but maybe throwing an error code (before that nasty skip ) because of a slight loss of compression and a incomplete burn loading up the O2 sensor.

[C1xRider]

I did not say or imply that anything was or was not reliable. Please read my post again.

What I said was that I was aware of that source for the information but was looking for another source, preferably written. Fred's statement came from a conversation he had from someone who is an employee or associated with Kawasaki; I do not believe that it represents Kawasaki's official position. I too would be surprised if Kawasaki did print any official position on that issue and that is why I asked you for clarification about the source of your information.

If the reason for the different lash check intervals is emissions based, and I do believe it is, then it is not likely that we will ever see any direct mention of that from any vehicle manufacturer.

Brian

Re-reading your post didn't change the impression I got from it.  The tone made me suspect you may have also known something you were not volunteering. 

However, it looks like we're both in sync, and on the same page, with the same information.

I suppose a nicely worded letter to Kawasaki, asking about the discrepancy / difference between N.A. and EU bikes, might get you the written explanation you would like.  Either that, or politely ignored.

[C1xRider]

I do not think there would be any 'detection' by the ECU until a valve actually burned and then the rider would already know because of that nasty skip....    Really, the F.I. system cannot compensate or react to valve lash until that lash was so far out of tolerance as to be ridiculous.

I believe the valve lash schedule on C-14's in the US and Canada was due to an agreement between Kawasaki and the US gov't but do not know that that is a fact.

Brian

If the valve adjustment was off, it would negatively affect the emissions in a measurable way before it burned a valve.  If they actually used a O2 sensor, and had preprogrammed limits for how far off the feedback could be, the ECU could throw an error code indicating the correction factor was outside of the limit.

However, since North American bikes don't have 02 sensors, it doesn't matter anyway.

I'll have to research this 15,000 mile EPA test a little.  It would be sad if Kawi decided they could drop the 02 sensors, since the EPA test requires stricter maintenance intervals.

Given that closed loop systems should be more efficient under the typical conditions the bike would see compared to a fixed map open loop system, it would be ironic if it was this test that resulted in them being dropped for the US bikes.

[Zteve]

If the valve adjustment was off, it would negatively affect the emissions in a measurable way before it burned a valve.  If they actually used a O2 sensor, and had preprogrammed limits for how far off the feedback could be, the ECU could throw an error code indicating the correction factor was outside of the limit.

However, since North American bikes don't have 02 sensors, it doesn't matter anyway.

I'll have to research this 15,000 mile EPA test a little.  It would be sad if Kawi decided they could drop the 02 sensors, since the EPA test requires stricter maintenance intervals.

Given that closed loop systems should be more efficient under the typical conditions the bike would see compared to a fixed map open loop system, it would be ironic if it was this test that resulted in them being dropped for the US bikes.

Seems to make sense if the O2 sensors are the only difference.

[oldnslo]

at 15k my valves were all in spec(did my own work). at45k had to adjust about half of them.

[accbiker]

The valve adjustment service revealed only the intake valve No. 4  was out of spec ( only 0.10 mm of clearance).

-David
Athens, GA

[jeffmccracken]

So here is a question I don't think I've seen answered : What are the valve tolerance ranges for the non-US spec machines? Are they different from the US models or the same?

Is there any reason to believe that the wear characteristics are different between the US and non-US bikes?

Assume that the US/nonUS bikes have the same wear characteristics between them.   If the lower mileage interval for the US was for emission reasons, one would think that the allowed tolerances would have to be tighter than for the non US models.  If the wear characteristics are the same and the tolerances specs are the same, what's the point of checking early?

[redbarber]

Just got the bike back from the dealer.  Had my 15k service done, but bike actually had 20k when I took it in.  None of the valves required adjustment, however I did not ask how close they were to needing some.  Total cost for the service was $649, increased a bit because I requested full synthetic motor oil.  Dealer has also gotten approval to replace the front brakes under warranty, and the rear TPM sensor.  Will take bike back in when the parts are received.   My dealer is Primo Powersports in Lilburn, Georgia.  They've never done me wrong, at least not in my opinion. 
I think the valve check is scheduled too soon, should be 25-30k at least for the first check. 

[golfhuntfish]

i had mine done at the dealer at 15,XXX ......12 out of 16 needed adjustment...$ well spent.......

[Pokey]

Just got the bike back from the dealer.  Had my 15k service done, but bike actually had 20k when I took it in.  None of the valves required adjustment, however I did not ask how close they were to needing some.  Total cost for the service was $649, increased a bit because I requested full synthetic motor oil.  Dealer has also gotten approval to replace the front brakes under warranty, and the rear TPM sensor.  Will take bike back in when the parts are received.   My dealer is Primo Powersports in Lilburn, Georgia.  They've never done me wrong, at least not in my opinion. 
I think the valve check is scheduled too soon, should be 25-30k at least for the first check.

That seems a bit too high for a "non-adjust".

[Jeremy Mitchell]

That seems a bit too high for a "non-adjust".

That is why I am glad that I did my own for free.99!

[accbiker]

Just got the bike back from the dealer.  Had my 15k service done, but bike actually had 20k when I took it in.  None of the valves required adjustment, however I did not ask how close they were to needing some.  Total cost for the service was $649, increased a bit because I requested full synthetic motor oil.  Dealer has also gotten approval to replace the front brakes under warranty, and the rear TPM sensor.  Will take bike back in when the parts are received.   My dealer is Primo Powersports in Lilburn, Georgia.  They've never done me wrong, at least not in my opinion. 
I think the valve check is scheduled too soon, should be 25-30k at least for the first check.

FWIW - Top Gear Motorsports in Athens did my valve service for $275.  Can't say anything bad about Primo, but I have always found them a little high (both bike prices and service).  But they are a good dealer.

-David
Athens, GA

[Jeremy Mitchell]

FWIW - Top Gear Motorsports in Athens did my valve service for $275.  Can't say anything bad about Primo, but I have always found them a little high (both bike prices and service).  But they are a good dealer.

-David
Athens, GA

$275 for re-shimming?  If so, that was a steal!  I would happily fork over $275 to a dealer if they had a competent mechanic to do my valve check.  I spent the better part of two days working on mine and I didn't even pull the cams (all 16 were dang near middle spec).  But it was my first time digging into my bike, so there was a steep learning curve for pulling everything off.

[MAN OF BLUES]

Just got the bike back from the dealer.  Had my 15k service done, but bike actually had 20k when I took it in.  None of the valves required adjustment, however I did not ask how close they were to needing some.  Total cost for the service was $649, increased a bit because I requested full synthetic motor oil.  Dealer has also gotten approval to replace the front brakes under warranty, and the rear TPM sensor.  Will take bike back in when the parts are received.   My dealer is Primo Powersports in Lilburn, Georgia.  They've never done me wrong, at least not in my opinion. 
I think the valve check is scheduled too soon, should be 25-30k at least for the first check.

there lies the major problem when you pay for this service....they didn't supply you with the map of what they found, or what shims were there....in this instance, you still do not have a clue as to what the clearances actually are, and they might be right on the line. Now, ride another 20k, and where will they be? you simply do not know.

I stress to anyone taking the bike in for service, that they INSIST on getting a map of what each clearance is, and that if shims were done at that time, the map MUST include what shims were in place, and what they put in there....
without this information, you still have to stumble thru any future service as if it was the first attempt, and cannot utilize the most valuable piece of the puzzle, which is having a map in hand showing what shims are in place and resultant clearances after service was perforomed, allowing you to simplify the next check by not having to remove the cams, to find out what is there...
It's amazing that people will pay for the work, and never force the data gleaned during the process, to be turned over to them.
Semper Fi....