Author Topic: I ride with my C14 high-beam on during the day  (Read 58816 times)

Offline gPink

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Re: I ride with my C14 high-beam on during the day
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2012, 06:39:48 AM »
On another motorcycle the high beams probably will not bother a majority of the people because they sit up higher. In most cars, excluding trucks, the driver is at headlight level or close to it. Go ahead and do whatever ya'll can justify in your mind. You may meet the right auto driver who has had enough of the annoyance from the loud pipes and excessive light blinding them and when they react, you will lose. Seems everyone justifies their annoying behavior with the excuse that it makes them safer, in other words it is about me, me, me. Now if someone has a published study on the subject that supports it is safer and a recommended practice, then post a link to it.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/pedbimot/motorcycle/00-nht-212-motorcycle/motorcycle49-50.html

• Using the high beam of a motorcycle’s headlight during the day also helps to prevent violations of the motorcyclist’s right-of-way (Hurt, 1981)

Offline Rhino

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Re: I ride with my C14 high-beam on during the day
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2012, 07:10:36 AM »
I run high beams during the day. I have ridden with others and switched bikes. Looking at my bike in the mirror a few hundred feet behind it does not show up well with low beam. With high beam it does. I have had many bike approach with high beams and it does not dazzle me at all during a sunny day. I have never been dazzled by high beams on a bright sunny day. If it is cloudy and darker I turn them off. Now that I have canyon cages and a good place to mount bullet lights I might just do that.

Flathead

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Re: I ride with my C14 high-beam on during the day
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2012, 07:31:24 AM »
On another motorcycle the high beams probably will not bother a majority of the people because they sit up higher. In most cars, excluding trucks, the driver is at headlight level or close to it. Go ahead and do whatever ya'll can justify in your mind. You may meet the right auto driver who has had enough of the annoyance from the loud pipes and excessive light blinding them and when they react, you will lose. Seems everyone justifies their annoying behavior with the excuse that it makes them safer, in other words it is about me, me, me. Now if someone has a published study on the subject that supports it is safer and a recommended practice, then post a link to it.
When speaking of accident studies we must keep in mind that when there is no accident then there is no study, i.e. it is very difficult to obtain the data since there was no accident. (Tough to prove a negative)
Here is a study commissioned by DOT: http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/2027.42/487/2/43121.0001.001.pdf, again very old, 1979. Page 83, Para 5.1.4 Summary, Daytime Treatments: "Riding with the headlamp on seems very effective, although causing the headlamp to modulate from low to high intensity seems to improve response even more."
Additionally, here is a pretty good article on the practice: http://cruiserlinks.com/motorcycle-articles/motorcycle-headlight-modulators/
And yes, when it comes to my safety it is all about me because no one else cares as much as I do. :)

Offline Conrad

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Re: I ride with my C14 high-beam on during the day
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2012, 08:23:32 AM »
On another motorcycle the high beams probably will not bother a majority of the people because they sit up higher. In most cars, excluding trucks, the driver is at headlight level or close to it. Go ahead and do whatever ya'll can justify in your mind. You may meet the right auto driver who has had enough of the annoyance from the loud pipes and excessive light blinding them and when they react, you will lose. Seems everyone justifies their annoying behavior with the excuse that it makes them safer, in other words it is about me, me, me. Now if someone has a published study on the subject that supports it is safer and a recommended practice, then post a link to it.

As Flathead stated, when I'm riding and it comes to MY safety. IT IS ALL ABOUT ME! Who else is going to worry more about MY safety than ME? (maybe one other person, my wife) No one ever pulled out in front of ME because they could see ME too well. If a driver thinks that I'm being discourteous because I have my high beams on during the day, at least he saw me and I didn't get creamed. I can live with the other driver's opinion of me.
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Offline Conrad

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Re: I ride with my C14 high-beam on during the day
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2012, 08:25:08 AM »
Apologies in advance for the hijack.

The lovely Jo Garcia, that's also known as Playboys Gamernextdoor signed the top, & two of Her Playmate friends signed both sides. I was invited to a party By Jo & had no idea at the time it would be full of Playmates. Jo is a cool Lady, not to mention hot as the dickens.



What were we talking about again?  :P
Northern Illinois   Silverdammit '08 C-14 ABS

"Don't bother me with facts, Son. I've already made up my mind." -Foghorn Leghorn

Offline Mister Tee

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Re: I ride with my C14 high-beam on during the day
« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2012, 08:54:07 AM »
I don't feel that blinding oncoming drivers (and other riders) contributes to my personal safety.  I get REALLY ANNOYED when I see an oncoming car or bike with their brights on, night or day.

California Vehicle Code requires dimming your brights for oncoming and overtaking vehicles, night and day.

I don't care how visible you make yourself, there will be people that still won't see you, and even if they do, they won't care.  I ride like I'm invisible, and that's kept me alive for the last 30 years.

Offline MrPepsi

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Re: I ride with my C14 high-beam on during the day
« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2012, 09:16:50 AM »
I don't feel that blinding oncoming drivers (and other riders) contributes to my personal safety.  I get REALLY ANNOYED when I see an oncoming car or bike with their brights on, night or day.

California Vehicle Code requires dimming your brights for oncoming and overtaking vehicles, night and day.

I don't care how visible you make yourself, there will be people that still won't see you, and even if they do, they won't care.  I ride like I'm invisible, and that's kept me alive for the last 30 years.

^^^^ THIS, +1,000 or more
Brent Johnson 
2009 C-14 "Razzi"

Offline lt1

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Re: I ride with my C14 high-beam on during the day
« Reply #47 on: June 19, 2012, 09:27:20 AM »
http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/pedbimot/motorcycle/00-nht-212-motorcycle/motorcycle49-50.html

• Using the high beam of a motorcycle’s headlight during the day also helps to prevent violations of the motorcyclist’s right-of-way (Hurt, 1981)

The main problem with that link is discovered if you actually go to the Hurt report.  I'll repost what I put in the other thread.

If you go through the actual Hurt Report (almost 500 pages, and a lot of it is pretty dry), there is no actual recommendation of daytime highbeam headlamp use.  They do recognize that there is an argument for highbeam use, but they did not study or quantify it, nor did they conclude that it is/was a good idea.  At the time of the study, bikes had only recently been required to have headlamps lit at all times from the factory, so they were comparing headlamp use vs non-use only.

The highbeam use advocates drew the conclusion that if a headlight helps make the bike visible, a highbeam must make it more visible.  It many ways, that seems reasonable, but there are no studies, reports nor statistics to back that conclusion.  There is evidence that it is not always so much of a question of whether the bike was seen, but rather a question of whether the distance and approach speed were correctly estimated by the observing traffic.  Unfortunately, highbeams can and do make those calculations more difficult, and may increase the risks rather than reducing them.


Again, daytime highbeam use (DtHbU) may increase the distance at which the motorcycle is noticed, but that is not really the problem.  There really is not a problem with drivers turning in front of distant bikes.  The crashes happen when they turn in front of close bikes.  DtHbU makes it more difficult for the driver to judge the distance and approach speed of the bike.  Without actual statistical studies, it is difficult to prove that DtHbU increases or decreases the probability of collisions.  Still, there is the strong parallel to "loud pipes save lives".  It is annoying to many, though not all.  It is illegal in many, but not all cases.  It is motivated by selfishness to the point of inconsideration, while offering no actual measurable benefit.  It falls on the "magic talisman" side of motorcycling, rather than on the "skills and responsibility" side.  Discussing it can bring out emotional reactions on both sides of the issue.

I'll quote David Hough from Proficient Motorcycling:  (pp 102-103)
If you allow another motorist to knock you down, you'll hear the same excuse:
I didn't see you. Sometimes an errant driver has looked down at the poor motorcyclist
lying miserably crunched under a bent motorcycle and let slip: Gosh, 1 didn't
see you. You were coming so fast, and you were wearing black leather, and, besides,
you didn't have your headlight turned on, Certainly there are occasions when the
other driver really couldn't see the motorcyclist, but many veteran motorcyclists
have a sneaking suspicion that the excuse is mostly a cop-out. When a driver
attempts a sudden left turn in front of a motorcyclist and doesn't make it in time, we
shouldn't expect to hear, I saw you but I was in a hurry and lfigured you'd get out
of my way,
This repeated I didn't see you excuse of the knocker-downers has led some safety
experts to believe that the problem simply is that motorcycles are inconspicuous
in traffic, The solution, theoretically, is to be more conspicuous, The suggestions are
to wear bright colored riding gear, blind everyone else with the headlight on high
beam, and screw on a Yosemite Sam Back Off mud flap,
Most of the high-mileage riding friends I know roll their eyes at the conspicuity
stuff.  Friends don't let friends wear pink leathers, they sneer, Perhaps the veterans
have a more realistic understanding of the I didn't see you myth and suspect that conspicuity
stuff is more of a magic talisman than a dependable safety device, (Magic
talismans are supposed to ward off evil with no effort on the part of the wearer.)
Conspicuity devices are based on the assumption that the other guy will get out of
the way of the motorcyclist if only he can see you. The veterans know that avoiding
collisions depends on being prepared to get out of the way of the other guy, whether
he sees you or not.
We can't control every situation, though, and like it or not we often depend upon
other motorists not to run us over. Motorcycles are narrower and more difficult to
see in traffic. Other motorists don't always comprehend how rapidly a motorcycle
is approaching because a single 7-inch diameter headlight doesn't really give them
a clue about its approach speed. So a case can be made for motorcyclists to be a I ittle
more visible for the benefit of those drivers on the road who are really trying to
avoid collisions. Most importantly, if you are still in the process of learning the tactics
of traffic survival, you really are more dependent upon other drivers to stay out
of your way, and you should help them out by being as conspicuous as you can.
Whatever your experience level, you'll have to arrive at a level of conspicuousness
that meets your needs and fits your limits of sensibility.
Eyes, Brain, Hands.  Repeat.

Offline martin_14

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Re: I ride with my C14 high-beam on during the day
« Reply #48 on: June 19, 2012, 09:58:38 AM »
I don't feel that blinding oncoming drivers (and other riders) contributes to my personal safety.  I get REALLY ANNOYED when I see an oncoming car or bike with their brights on, night or day.

California Vehicle Code requires dimming your brights for oncoming and overtaking vehicles, night and day.

I don't care how visible you make yourself, there will be people that still won't see you, and even if they do, they won't care.  I ride like I'm invisible, and that's kept me alive for the last 30 years.

My point precisely, which went completely ignored  :'(
Build bridges, not walls.

Education is important. Riding my bike is importanter.

Breaker19

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Re: I ride with my C14 high-beam on during the day
« Reply #49 on: June 19, 2012, 03:58:30 PM »
What we're talking about here, simply put, is vehicle conspicuity. This is a  topic well researched in the Emergency Vehicle arena. There is a study I'll post a link to below about this topic, although this study focuses on conspicuity of Emergency Vehicles primarily stopped, such as at the scene of a wreck or similar location. Further, let me post just one section of the study right here, which talks about bright lighting:

The “Moth Effect”
There is limited scientific evidence to support the notion that drivers steer toward bright lights, such as
those used to increase the visibility of emergency vehicles, as “moths to a flame" (often called the “moth
effect” and technically, “phototaxis”). (Interview with Dr. Michael Flannagan, 2008; Green, 2009) Several
recent studies, however, suggest that while bright lights may not be the cause, drivers' fixation on roadside
objects can cause their steering to drift in the direction of their gaze. (Readinger et al., 2002; Chatziastros et
al., 2006) This effect may be more pronounced with other impairments. The implications of these findings
on emergency vehicle visibility/conspicuity are unknown, but certainly support the need for additional
research on how to design passive conspicuity treatments so they draw drivers’ attention enough to induce
the appropriate (“stay away”) response, without causing the potentially negative results of visual fixation.


This is not to say that a motorcycle with a bright headlight will cause this Moth Effect, but it's interesting all the same, and again, they're primarily talking about emergency vehicles parked at scenes.

I can tell you from the experience of sitting in the cab of a moving Emergency Vehicle with a lot more lights going than a motorcycle headlight, is that drivers don't often see those vehicles either, just because the lights are engaged. However, for certain, the lights flashing in varying pulses, such as programmable LED warning lights affixed to all surfaces of the vehicle, certainly make a difference. Back in the day of incandescent lighting, we were thrilled with Whelen and other warning device manufacturers came out with strobes. Studies back then showed that a combination of incandescent and strobes offered the most conspicuity for emergency vehicles. This would tend to support and advocate the use of a headlight modulator on a motorcycle, which provides that pulsating light pattern.

Light colors are also addressed somewhat in the study I referenced. It's interesting to note, but not surprising, how lighter colors such as amber and white, attract the most attention. Another plus for the flashing headlight position.

You may have noticed yourselves just how far away those amber lights of DOT or "Road Ranger" vehicles get noticed when you're hurtling down the interstate at sub-light speeds. In Florida, the statute changed a few years ago to allow commercial and other work vehicles (passenger vehicles, pickups, etc.) to sport flashing white lights. These originally were only allowed in Emergency Vehicles. They definitely catch your attention; yet another +1 for a modulating headlamp.

The net result here, I believe, is that combinations of lighting facilitates the most conspicuity. Since we can't bolt on flashing LED's facing forward, at least, it stands to reason that the pulsating headlamp on a motorcycle is probably the best way to achieve the most forward facing conspicuity. Will a solid high-beam light do the same thing? In my opinion, no, and for obvious reasons. If solid, non-flashing lights promoted conspicuity, they'd be on Emergency Vehicles -- and WERE for many years, a long time ago.

Take a look at the conspicuity report, because it addresses the science around "retroreflectivity," which is what you're dealing with when you paste reflective decals and such onto your bike. The study shows that reflective markings are definitely a plus at night, and may very well be worth adding to motorcycles, as many have already done.

And just some additional food for thought -- someone mentioned the loud pipes debate again. This is another area of Emergency Vehicle warning that I can tell you about. Emergency Vehicles, at a minimum, will have at least one 100 dB forward facing audible warning device, in the form of a speaker (driver) or perhaps a mechanical siren like a Federal "Q" type. Most nowadays, have several, emitting varying tones and frequencies. That, along with air horns and the like, can generate many hundreds of dB's. The problem is, at 40 mph, the "effective range" of a siren is about 300 feet. At 60 mph, that range decreases to a mere 12 feet. Add in the ultra-quiet cabins of modern vehicles, especially the luxury marques, and that range may be lower. So loud pipes simply aren't going to do anything to warn anybody of a motorcycles approach, especially since the pipe is facing rearward. This is not to say that they don't attract attention laterally, such as when a bike is overtaking a car. That debate rages on and will continue to do so, for sure. Loud horn modifications on motorcycles may help in some circumstances, more likely at slower speeds, but falls under the same science. At a higher speed, the effective range decreases, period.

http://www.iaff.org/hs/evsp/USFA%20Emergency%20Vehicle%20Visibility%20and%20Conspicuity%20Study.pdf

Offline maxtog

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Re: I ride with my C14 high-beam on during the day
« Reply #50 on: June 19, 2012, 04:03:18 PM »
http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/pedbimot/motorcycle/00-nht-212-motorcycle/motorcycle49-50.html

• Using the high beam of a motorcycle’s headlight during the day also helps to prevent violations of the motorcyclist’s right-of-way (Hurt, 1981)

Yes, that is the singular, weak, outdated, non-scientific, unsupported document that I was referring to in above postings.  It is not authoritative, and high-beam use was not the purpose or topic of the Hurt 1981 paper (in days when bikes also had MISERABLE headlights).   It is a data point, but not much of one.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline maxtog

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Re: I ride with my C14 high-beam on during the day
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2012, 04:05:26 PM »
I run high beams during the day. I have ridden with others and switched bikes.

So have I- and I have had both blinding and non-blinding experiences.  More on the blinding side.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Breaker19

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Re: I ride with my C14 high-beam on during the day
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2012, 04:08:57 PM »
Yes, that is the singular, weak, outdated, non-scientific, unsupported document that I was referring to in above postings.  It is not authoritative, and high-beam use was not the purpose or topic of the Hurt 1981 paper (in days when bikes also had MISERABLE headlights).   It is a data point, but not much of one.

I just took the Basic Rider Course, sort-of as a primer to maybe someday doing the Rider Coach program, if I can eventually get sponsored. I obtained my endorsement well before this course was required to get the endorsement, so I figured why not take one. Anyway, I just pulled out my BRC student book and all it mentions is riding with the headlight on to increase motorcycle visibility... Not much help, I know! lol

Offline maxtog

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Re: I ride with my C14 high-beam on during the day
« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2012, 04:10:36 PM »
And yes, when it comes to my safety it is all about me because no one else cares as much as I do. :) 

Incredibly true.  And I, for one, have never argued that riding with the high-beam doesn't cause more visibility.  In many cases it does!  What I have been saying is that often, just being seen is not enough.  If the light is washing out the rest of the bike, another vehicle has far less information about the location, distance, position, and speed of the bike.  And that does not increase safety...

How much of one cancels the other?  Hard to say.  As the length of this thread shows, it is not an easy question to answer.  Really- I wish I had more and better answers.  But anyone who thinks they are *NOT* annoying at least *SOME* other motorists with daytime highbeams is deluding himself.   Not caring about others does tend to get me riled up :)  (Not that anyone has noticed).
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Breaker19

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Re: I ride with my C14 high-beam on during the day
« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2012, 04:12:37 PM »
Apologies in advance for the hijack.

The lovely Jo Garcia, that's also known as Playboys Gamernextdoor signed the top, & two of Her Playmate friends signed both sides. I was invited to a party By Jo & had no idea at the time it would be full of Playmates. Jo is a cool Lady, not to mention hot as the dickens.



Bet you're saying "I'm never gonna wash this helmet!" lol  8)

Offline maxtog

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Re: I ride with my C14 high-beam on during the day
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2012, 04:17:11 PM »
I just took the Basic Rider Course, sort-of as a primer to maybe someday doing the Rider Coach program, if I can eventually get sponsored. I obtained my endorsement well before this course was required to get the endorsement, so I figured why not take one. Anyway, I just pulled out my BRC student book and all it mentions is riding with the headlight on to increase motorcycle visibility... Not much help, I know! lol

Wow, that must be a really old book :)   
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Breaker19

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Re: I ride with my C14 high-beam on during the day
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2012, 04:18:15 PM »
Wow, that must be a really old book :)

Yea, about 2 months old... lol

Offline stevewfl

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Re: I ride with my C14 high-beam on during the day
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2012, 04:47:49 PM »
Germany is the bad example. Altho I enjoyed driving on their autobahns, the accident rate over there in general is through the roof.

Find out their laws/advice and do the opposite
“The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.” St. Augustine

Offline MrPepsi

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Re: I ride with my C14 high-beam on during the day
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2012, 04:53:04 PM »
I average 4000-5000 miles each month of riding year round so I think I have some say in my safety!

Of course you do, just don't try to have say in mine.
Brent Johnson 
2009 C-14 "Razzi"

Breaker19

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Re: I ride with my C14 high-beam on during the day
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2012, 05:05:29 PM »
Nah, you're both wrong! Now this is motorcycle safety!  :rotflmao: