Fuel Economy assistance mode

[Rembrant]

When it is on, it is on.

You got it Max. I posted on page six about how the two ECO's differ. When you switch into the ECO/FEAM, you are switching to different maps...plain and simple. It does NO switching in and out of the mode on it's own. It's all rider control.

The ECO riding indicator does come on and off on it's own based on speed and RPM...but it has nothing to do with the actual ECO Mode/FEAM. See my earlier post on the previous page.

As a second issue- It also implies this might be a good (although not perfect) way to compare the before/after effects of something like a Guhl reflash, while riding.  To be sure, we would need to see the secondary butterfly FEAM control map and compare that to the regular map (you supplied only the fuel trim map) to see how similar or different they are.

In the FI ECU, there is only one secondary fly map, so what changes Guhl makes is present in both normal and ECO modes.

Rem

[B.D.F.]

Now Maxie, think of where the switch is and which direction it faces. The Gen. 1 switch is in front of the handlebar and so would be forward facing. The Gen. 2 FTP switch is mounted on the back of the handlebar and is most assuredly backward facing.

My horn button is exactly like your horn button (but bigger and firmer.... sorry, could not resist  ) and works the electric horn, just like on any stock C-14. You know, the one that goes "meep- meep" and with amplification can be heard by the human ear. But I also have an air horn. Now the air horn is wired into the bike such that it has no separate button (the bike has more than enough controls already), but is activate by the horn button BUT ONLY when the HIGH BEAMS are also on. So, I can choose which horn I use by using the FTP button. When I am in traffic on the highway, I ride with my left hand such that my thumb is over the horn button and my forefinger is over the FTP lever: if I simply squeeze my left hand, the high beams flash and the air horn sounds. This cannot be done in any practical way on a Gen. 2 as I would have to ride with my finger behind the handlebar on the FTP button- not very ergdynamic and I would have to remember to push both buttons.

Brian

The flash to pass on the gen 2 is not backwards facing.  You press it down with your thumb.  Either I don't understand what you are saying, or you don't know how the Gen 2 switches are laid out.  Here is a diagram:

[maxtog]

In the stock ECU, there is only one secondary fly map, so what changes Guhl makes are present in both normal and ECO modes.

Ug!  But that runs contrary to what some other posts in other threads were saying, that you could switch to the FEAM map and see what it was like before.  Perhaps they were just incorrect?  Or maybe they were just feeling the difference of the fuel and ignition maps (which Guhl also tweaks)... which is a shame, because from what I understand, those changes are MINOR compared to what REALLY makes the huge difference, which is the secondary butterfly map.

[maxtog]

This cannot be done in any practical way on a Gen. 2 as I would have to ride with my finger behind the handlebar on the FTP button- not very ergdynamic and I would have to remember to push both buttons.

Brianie, I think you replied to the first version of my post before I edited it with the "ah ha" moment when I re-read what I /you originally wrote... 

[B.D.F.]

Yep but you still missed it when you said why not wire the high beams to the horn button. That is not what I am doing at all.

Again, I have two horns on my bike: One for pleasantly saying ' toodle- oh', the other for waking up that person on the cell phone who is sliding into my lane. I have no additional buttons of any kind to make this work. The FTP button on a Gen. 2 bike, which is just another position for the high beam switch that is spring loaded, would not allow me to use the bike as I use mine with the forward FTP button. If / when I buy a Gen. 2 bike, I will re- wire the left controls so the FTP is again moved to the forward switch on the handlebar and give up the display roll through function to have it that way.

Brian

I think you replied to the first version of my post before I edited it with the "ah ha" moment when I re-read what I /you originally wrote...

[B.D.F.]

 

Brian

Brianie, I think you replied to the first version of my post before I edited it with the "ah ha" moment when I re-read what I /you originally wrote... 

[Rembrant]

Ug!  But that runs contrary to what some other posts in other threads were saying, that you could switch to the FEAM map and see what it was like before.  Perhaps they were just incorrect?  Or maybe they were just feeling the difference of the fuel and ignition maps (which Guhl also tweaks)... which is a shame, because from what I understand, those changes are MINOR compared to what REALLY makes the huge difference, which is the secondary butterfly map.

Oh...sorry, I spoke too soon. What I should have said was I only have access to one map section for secondary flies. Guhl has his own software and may have access to more than I do. I'll go back and check again (different laptop), but I'm pretty sure I only have the one secondary fly map, which is different again in each of the gears. If I don't have access to it, I can put in a request with Woolich and he'll likely open it up for me. It's one of those things...it likely wasn't added to the software because it wasn't needed.

The big change(s) in a Guhl re-flash is in the secondary fly map, below approx 4500 RPM. He changes the fuel mapping obviously, but as I understand it makes no changes to the ignition mapping at all.

Rem

[maxtog]

Again, I have two horns on my bike: One for pleasantly saying ' toodle- oh', the other for waking up that person on the cell phone who is sliding into my lane.

OK, I get it
My reading comprehension was obviously just focused on the FEAM stuff!

My horns are wired in parallel.  In such cases as you described, I end up tapping the horn button SUPER fast.  The electric horn responds instantaneously, while the air horn takes a small fraction of a second to wind up.... so I can create a more friendly "beep" when someone is sleeping a stop light, for example... without blasting him to the next zip code

[tomp]

Back to FEAM question...

'Scuse my ignorance, but is the ECO mode similar to, say, the rain mode that I had on my Duke 690 and what other ride by wire  bikes have?  Seems there are all kinds of changes taking place on those modes, besides simply leaning the fuel. Mapping and ECU changes, HP and torque curve change, timing etc...

The Duke had three modes, rain, which was soft and worked well in traffic and dropped peak hp down to 70% max.

Standard, which allowed for linear acceleration with peak HP.

And #3, which allowed for power to come on immediately and pull like crazy.  Believe it was referred to the kick butt/ticker getter mode...It was fun, but ya had to be thinking all the time or the flashing lights showed up in the mirrors.

[Rembrant]

It may stay in eco-mode without leaning the mixture in wot instances.

True, that is possible.  It MIGHT switch to the regular non-FEAM map at high throttle.  But it would be easier and more logical to just make the FEAM map NOT lean out on WOT as part of the FEAM map.  Since they didn't do that, it implies it doesn't switch.  At least, that is my thought process.

Getting back to what Gary said here...if you compare the cell for WOT at 10,000 where the limiter is, it is also 5% less in ECO Mode. The FI ECU wouldn't switch out of the ECO mode map in this case.

Keep in mind that the C14 in stock trim is already running a pretty rich AFR, and even if it the fuel is reduced by 5%, it's still technically not anywhere near a lean condition. On top of this, the FI ECU does make fueling changes for the ram air above and beyond the fuel map cells. The FI ECU does this with a calculation from the VSS input. Once the bike hits high enough speeds, the ECU knows that there is more air coming in, so it starts adding more fuel on top of what is in the TPS fuel map.

Rem

[Rembrant]

Back to FEAM question...

'Scuse my ignorance, but is the ECO mode similar to, say, the rain mode that I had on my Duke 690 and what other ride by wire  bikes have?  Seems there are all kinds of changes taking place on those modes, besides simply leaning the fuel. Mapping and ECU changes, HP and torque curve change, timing etc...

The Duke had three modes, rain, which was soft and worked well in traffic and dropped peak hp down to 70% max.

Standard, which allowed for linear acceleration with peak HP.

And #3, which allowed for power to come on immediately and pull like crazy.  Believe it was referred to the kick butt/ticker getter mode...It was fun, but ya had to be thinking all the time or the flashing lights showed up in the mirrors.

Hey Tomp,

I can't comment too much on what KTM is doing, but they'd be altering the fuel and ignition curves for sure....not sure what else.

[Rembrant]

Was talking to a gentleman using a pair of C-14 engines in an unusual application the other day and he mentioned that DynoJet now has a PC for a C-14 that will also control the spark. ?? Struck me as a bit odd but he was quite positive that this was the case. Heard anything about that?

Brian

He's likely using Power Commander ignition modules for the ZX14. You can dial the ignition curve wherever you want with that kit, and if it's plug N play for the ZX14, it more than likely fits on the C14 as well....and even if it did not, I'm sure it could be made to work easily enough.

I'm not sure why he'd want to modify the ignition curve on the C14...I believe it's pretty common, even for the heavily modded Kawi drag bikes to still run stock ignition. However, I'm certainly no expert on the matter.

Rem

[B.D.F.]

Yes, he is using ZX 14 ECU's on a pair of C-14's (one each, of course  ). What is throwing me is how can you advance the timing using a P.C.? Or does that module completely replace the ECU in firing the spark plugs? In other words, a P. C. can lengthen or shorten the F.I. pulse from the ECU for the injectors; but of course nothing could anticipate the spark signal from the ECU and advance it. ??

Brian

He's likely using Power Commander ignition modules for the ZX14. You can dial the ignition curve wherever you want with that kit, and if it's plug N play for the ZX14, it more than likely fits on the C14 as well....and even if it did not, I'm sure it could be made to work easily enough.

I'm not sure why he'd want to modify the ignition curve on the C14...I believe it's pretty common, even for the heavily modded Kawi drag bikes to still run stock ignition. However, I'm certainly no expert on the matter.

Rem

[Rembrant]

Yes, he is using ZX 14 ECU's on a pair of C-14's (one each, of course  ). What is throwing me is how can you advance the timing using a P.C.? Or does that module completely replace the ECU in firing the spark plugs? In other words, a P. C. can lengthen or shorten the F.I. pulse from the ECU for the injectors; but of course nothing could anticipate the spark signal from the ECU and advance it. ??

Brian

I'm not familiar with the product myself, but it more than likely intercepts the pulses from the timing rotor on the end of the crank. That's been the defacto standard for advancing ignition since forever...by altering the pulse signal before it even gets to the ECU/CDI.

Muzzys makes an adjustable timing rotor for the C14 by the way...although I doubt they made it specifically for the C14...lol, I'm sure it's a ZX14 piece that just happens to fit;)

Oh, and remember when you do your valves, you can unplug the coil-on-plug harness? Or am I thinking of a different bike?...lol. Anyway, point is, the ignition harness is usually removable, so the PC ignition module may just tap in there and alter the ignition signal, same as it does for the fuel injectors.

Just guessing of course;).

Let me guess...these engines in a boat?...lol. Kawasaki ZX10R engines are starting to show up in boats around here;).

Rem

[B.D.F.]

That makes perfect sense- grabbing the trigger and using a different map / circuit entirely. My mind was stuck on the method used by to control the fuel injectors.

Yep, a boat. Fast boat. Big engines and he is going to make them bigger yet :-)  It is also interesting making the swap between ECU's- he has had some success and some difficulty with that and is now in the realm of re- wiring. I am very interested to see both how this works out and what the differences are between the two ECU's (and the engine's from the ECU point of view).

Brian

I'm not familiar with the product myself, but it more than likely intercepts the pulses from the timing rotor on the end of the crank. That's been the defacto standard for advancing ignition since forever...by altering the pulse signal before it even gets to the ECU/CDI.

<snip>

Let me guess...these engines in a boat?...lol. Kawasaki ZX10R engines are starting to show up in boats around here;).

Rem

[gPink]

Why is he using zx ecu's on c14 engines? why not one or the other? Is he having difficulty with the c14's VVT?

[B.D.F.]

No, in retrospect he is sorry he cannot make use of the VVT. Long story, and I don't want to give away any proprietary information but basically one cannot get ZX engines. C-14 engine VVT offers <potential> benefits in his application. Again, I do not want to give too much information as I do not know what is proprietary and what scoundrels from another forum may be looking and plotting for their own gain. Suffice it to say that is the man is successful, he will get powerplant benefits as yet unknown from this engine along with some trans-missive benefits. He is working on the gear range to use now. A fascinating project to say the least.

Brian

Why is he using zx ecu's on c14 engines? why not one or the other? Is he having difficulty with the c14's VVT?

[wally_games]

I no longer have my 2011 or the manual, but I do recall that it very specifically says that there is a throttle position and/or RPM where the ECO mode cuts out. I think I posted the exact wording in one of my old posts, but I'll have to try and find it. Maybe someone with a newer manual can verify.

[Rembrant]

I no longer have my 2011 or the manual, but I do recall that it very specifically says that there is a throttle position and/or RPM where the ECO mode cuts out. I think I posted the exact wording in one of my old posts, but I'll have to try and find it. Maybe someone with a newer manual can verify.

I have a newer owner's manual (2010) and I didn't see anything about the ECO mode automatically switching on/off at different throttle positions and RPM's. Now, just because I didn't see it doesn't mean that it isn't there....but if somebody else wants to point it out to me, I'll read it.

My manual says that you cannot turn the ECO mode on above certain speeds or throttle openings...or something like that, but I didn't see anything about any automatic map switching functions.

Rem

[just gone]

... but I do recall that it very specifically says that there is a throttle position and/or RPM where the ECO mode cuts out.

Memory can be a fickle thing...I believe Rem' is correct.

FUEL ECONOMY ASSISTANCE MODE
This motorcycle is equipped with a fuel economy assistance mode that helps maximize fuel efficiency. Activating the fuel economy assistance mode changes to a leaner fuel injection map that prioritizes fuel economy over rideability. The fuel economy assistance mode can be activated using the meter mode button on the left switch housing when rpm is less than 6000, throttle position is less than 30 percent and vehicle speed is less than 250km/h (152 MPH). When the fuel economy assistance mode is effective, the fuel economy assistance indicator appears on the multifunction meter.

1) it's a different leaner fuel map
2) You can only activate the leaner fuel map (and I suspect deactivate it, but I haven't tried it) when rpm is less than 6000, throttle position is less than 30%, and vehicle speed is less than 250 km/h.
3) the leaner fuel map is active when ever the "ECO" (left of time display below ODO/trip meter line) is displayed. It stays active regardless of speed, rpm, or throttle opening until you turn it off with the same button you turned it on with, or until the ignition is switched off.