I do not think that is correct Steve- the oils that contain friction modifiers are all 30 weight (or Xw- 30 multi- weight) oils as far as I know. Diesel oils are not energy saving and do not contain friction modifiers, again to the best of my knowledge. Diesel oils are all heavier than 30 weight, at least the multi- weight diesel oils are. I have seen straight 30 weight diesel rated oil but then again, no straight weight oil is energy saving either to the best of my knowledge.I see all these claims of clutch damaging "friction modifiers" but in all of these threads, have yet to see someone actually post an example of a clutch destroying FM in a 5-30w oil that is not in any bike specific oil. Can't say that moly is the culprit as Torco Motorcycle oil has one of the highest levels of moly of any oil and you don't hear of people complaining of clutch problems.
Diesel oils seem to work well in motorcycles and are very popular with no nasty side effects that I am aware of, although I do not care for the way my C-14 shifts using 5w- 40 Rotella (the new stuff, the older stuff was better in my experience).
I see all these claims of clutch damaging "friction modifiers" but in all of these threads, have yet to see someone actually post an example of a clutch destroying FM in a 5-30w oil that is not in any bike specific oil. Can't say that moly is the culprit as Torco Motorcycle oil has one of the highest levels of moly of any oil and you don't hear of people complaining of clutch problems.
Not all diesel oils are 40w. As i pointed out, M1 5-30w ESP meets VW504,507- those are more demanding specs than the Rotella 5-40w can meet.
The biggest difference between diesel oils and car oils is:
1) Higher level of detergents (to deal with soot).
2) Higher level of ZDDP (this is what the bike's tranny likes).
I guess my point is that there are cheap diesel oils you can use in your bike, but these oils (I am talking about the Rotella twins) are not the best diesel oils out there,
not by a long shot. However, spending extra $$ for the better diesel oils defeats the purpose of buying them- which is to save money over buying bike specific oil.
I think in my neck of the woods, that M1 5-40 stuff is over $7 a quart. For a little less than that or the same price, I got Redline 5-40 pao/ester motorcycle oil.
As for weights, well, I have seen more than one oil analysis that showed Rotella 5-40 to sheer down to a 5-30 within 2k miles (the VI didn't hold up). Yet, the wear analysis (even on a ZX14 with 5K miles on the oil) was still pretty good.
I've used 5W-XX oil since I've had my C14, but synthetic.
My Shell Oil friend said that 5W number factors mainly during start-up cold engine temps and synth, whether blended or full, has a whole different characteristic when cold. 5W a non-issue.
He could've been BSing me but I've ran 5W-XX on all my bikes track and street with no issue.
The point all of you are missing is that the C14 shares it's oil with the transmission and a right-angle output drive to the drive shaft. This changes the oil equation substantially. That right-angle output unit has basically the same function as the rear drive unit that specs 80w-90 gear lube. So.....are you confident using 5w-XX oil in this special environment? Remember, drag-racing cars have only the engine to lubricate with the engine oil, not a transmission or a right-angle drive assembly that need much better shear-resistant lubrication.
Before you compare the C14 lubrication needs to other vehicles, you really should consider all the variables. I'm with Fred H. on this one -- 5 weight is just not good enough for the C14. I agree with the use of 15w-40 HDEO in the C14 provided you don't try to extend the OCIs. 4-5000 miles would be a good OCI with them...
The point all of you are missing is that the C14 shares it's oil with the transmission and a right-angle output drive to the drive shaft. This changes the oil equation substantially. That right-angle output unit has basically the same function as the rear drive unit that specs 80w-90 gear lube. So.....are you confident using 5w-XX oil in this special environment? Remember, drag-racing cars have only the engine to lubricate with the engine oil, not a transmission or a right-angle drive assembly that need much better shear-resistant lubrication.
Before you compare the C14 lubrication needs to other vehicles, you really should consider all the variables. I'm with Fred H. on this one -- 5 weight is just not good enough for the C14. I agree with the use of 15w-40 HDEO in the C14 provided you don't try to extend the OCIs. 4-5000 miles would be a good OCI with them...
Again, 5W-40 is NOT a 5 weight oil. The W stands for "Winter." 5W-40 is a 40 weight oil. 15W-40 is also 40 weight oil. The Winter rating describes how the oil performs at lower temperatures. All motor oil gets thicker when it's cold and doesn't lubricate at it's optimal level until it gets to it's normal operating temperature. An oil with a lower Winter number (like 5W-40) will not thicken as much when the engine is cold as an oil with a higher Winter number (like 15W-40). Therefore, at startup, a 5W-40 will lubricate more similar to as if it were already up to operating temperature compared to a 15W-40, which will be thicker at startup. When the oil gets up to operating temperature, the "W" number doesn't mean anything anymore.
Again, 5W-40 is NOT a 5 weight oil. The W stands for "Winter." 5W-40 is a 40 weight oil. 15W-40 is also 40 weight oil. The Winter rating describes how the oil performs at lower temperatures. All motor oil gets thicker when it's cold and doesn't lubricate at it's optimal level until it gets to it's normal operating temperature. An oil with a lower Winter number (like 5W-40) will not thicken as much when the engine is cold as an oil with a higher Winter number (like 15W-40). Therefore, at startup, a 5W-40 will lubricate more similar to as if it were already up to operating temperature compared to a 15W-40, which will be thicker at startup. When the oil gets up to operating temperature, the "W" number doesn't mean anything anymore.
Qoute:
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It took me 30 seconds to find this info doing a search on Google -- the least Pokey and Brian could do is perform due diligence before writing patently incorrect statements ----
You are dead wrong-- 5w-XX oils are 5 weight base stocks that change to a 40 weight when the engine temperature rises. They contain VIIs (viscosity index improvers) that act like little molecular springs as temps rise. These molecular "springs" thicken the oil so that it now has the properties of a 40 weight oil. That's how the oil can flow well at low temps and still protect at high temps. As the oil shears down from wear, it loses this ability and becomes a lighter and lighter oil. In many circumstances oil will shear from a 40 weight to a 20 weight oil in less than 5000 miles. This is precisely the problem with the C14 -- between the transmission and right-angle drive they shear the oil quickly. So while 5w-40 CAN adequately protect the C14 engine when new, will it protect after 5000 miles of heavy use during stressful circumstances? You don't assume the ideal condition, but the most unlikely condition. All oil can protect engines -- it is the extreme conditions that separate them.
Have used only Penzoil 30 wt in all my cars and motorcycles for 45 years, except one
Change every 3000 miles on autos, 1500 miles on motorcycles and once/season on lawn equipment.
Have had a multitude of cars and 27 motorcycles and not an oil related failure on any of them.
Worry more about getting it changed frequently than what brand/type you are going to use
I read a technical paper by Redline Oil that said that synthetic oil (we're talking real synthetic- pao/ester, not that group III crap) has a natural viscosity range of 10-30. To achieve a 5-30 rating, they use a slightly different base with a little VI added to it. They went on to say you should use the narrowest range needed as VI additives break down and when they do, can lead to slightly higher deposits in the engine. If you live where it is always warm, or don't ride in the winter, a 5-40 might seem like over kill ( I think 10-40 is good down to 22 degrees but I'd have to check), but it really is getting close to nit picking.
After reading that paper, I thought of the old Castrol synthetic 5-50 oil, wow, that must of had a crap load of VI dumped into it.
I've read this in several articles as well. Makes sense, otherwise manufactors would make just one oil, 0W-50 that would serve all vehicles in all seasons for the whole planet, but they don't.