Author Topic: Rotella Synthetic 5w40 diesel oil vs. Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil  (Read 43486 times)

Offline roger dodger

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Re: Rotella Synthetic 5w40 diesel oil vs. Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil
« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2011, 12:13:45 PM »
On the OP, I believe Rotella is a class III semi-synthetic, and Mobil1 is a class IV ester. IIRC

All this oil input gives me a slippery headache, so I split the difference....I use 1/2 Rotella 15w/40 and 1/2 Rotella 5w/40 resulting in a 10w/40 'blended'oil ( w/ JASO MA rating).

Either way, I can count by 5 easier than most others, so I change it all every 5k miles.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Rotella Synthetic 5w40 diesel oil vs. Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil
« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2011, 01:52:53 PM »
Motor oil is mostly used to lubricate an engine in a dynamic mode, meaning that two parts are separated by a film of oil and one moves in relationship to the other. The parts themselves never actually touch each other, only the oil. Shifting is different in that it uses static lubrication where two (or more) pieces of metal actually touch and drag against each other. The parts are still covered in a film of oil but there is no speed to have the parts use the oil dynamically; think of it as one part 'oil skiing' on a film of oil rather than sliding against its mating part.

Shifting involves sliding parts against each other and uses a mechanism called boundary lubrication of the oil. I am not sure what component(s) of motor oil contribute to smooth or notchy shifting but they do appear to be the materials used for static, boundary lubrication; materials such as ZDDP, moly, sulphur, chlorine, and perhaps others. Motor oil generally uses only ZDDP and moly as boundary lubes and generally only ZDDP. I would be tempted to say that the reduction of ZDDP in motor oil over the last couple of years is what is causing notchy shifting because bringing the ZDDP level up results in very noticeably shifting. But I have also found Valvoline and Pennzoil auto grade motor oils to shift extremely smoothly, at least when they are fresh and clean, and I do not believe either one of those contain any more ZDDP than Rotella. ?? There must be another compound(s) used that cause the difference in addition too, or in lieu of, ZDDP.

Another odd thing I have noticed is that the auto oils I have tried start out great regarding shifting ease and smoothness but deteriorate fairly rapidly so that by the time the oil has something like 2K miles on it the shifting is again rough. But Rotella 15W-40 with the zinc level raised seems to shift well and about the same as new when the oil has more than 3K miles on it. ??? I have been tempted to add some zinc to oil that has accumulated some mileage and is shifting poorly just to see if zinc alone would restore the original shifting smoothness but I have always just changed the oil rather than tinker with the old stuff.

Like most things regarding motor oil I suspect we will never really know specifically what is going on. The issue will continue to be debated and speculated on forever but there really is very little data out there to review. The people who really care about lubrication have collected a lot of data (the subject is tribology) but it seems to be based on the use of special and expensive lubricants. For example, NASA has a great deal of knowledge about what is required to lubricate things in the vacuum of space (a very harsh environment) but they also do not care to save money on lubricants. Same thing with motor oil, the people who really care about how it performs typically use good grades of known brand oil and maintain the engines carefully. What we really need is to see a few million vehicle- miles on different oils and to quantify the results.

Brian


This notchy shifting issue is a real puzzler for me as I don't see the scientific basis for it. Isn't one of the main features of Synthetic oil that it  maintains its effectiveness longer than fossil oil? Can anyone suggest an explaination of what is going on to cause this notchiness?
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Offline Pokey

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Re: Rotella Synthetic 5w40 diesel oil vs. Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil
« Reply #62 on: November 17, 2011, 01:53:32 PM »
On the OP, I believe Rotella is a class III semi-synthetic, and Mobil1 is a class IV ester. IIRC

All this oil input gives me a slippery headache, so I split the difference....I use 1/2 Rotella 15w/40 and 1/2 Rotella 5w/40 resulting in a 10w/40 'blended'oil ( w/ JASO MA rating).

Either way, I can count by 5 easier than most others, so I change it all every 5k miles.

I believe it is not.......
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Rotella Synthetic 5w40 diesel oil vs. Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil
« Reply #63 on: November 17, 2011, 02:03:25 PM »
I believe you are correct. Just going by memory but Mobil sued another oil company for marketing group III oil as 'synthetic' while they were using group VI as synthetic. They lost the court case, which set a precedent that group III oils (from petroleum) can be labeled and sold as 'synthetic' oils and then went on to sell the less expensive group III oil as synthetic themselves. It is ironic....

Brian


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Offline Gearhead82

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Re: Rotella Synthetic 5w40 diesel oil vs. Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil
« Reply #64 on: November 17, 2011, 02:05:20 PM »
I believe it is not.......

I agree that their car oils are Group III, but I believe their 4T motorcycle specific oils are one of the few Group IV oils, along with Redline and Amsoil.
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Offline Pokey

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Re: Rotella Synthetic 5w40 diesel oil vs. Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil
« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2011, 02:11:46 PM »
I agree that their car oils are Group III, but I believe their 4T motorcycle specific oils are one of the few Group IV oils, along with Redline and Amsoil.

And I am pretty sure it is still a Group III, not that I care because I don't run Mobil 1 anymore.
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Rotella Synthetic 5w40 diesel oil vs. Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil
« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2011, 02:17:49 PM »
I'm going back to Kawi Dino oil.
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Offline Gearhead82

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Re: Rotella Synthetic 5w40 diesel oil vs. Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil
« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2011, 02:27:06 PM »
I've found this link very helpful in the past.  It's basically an organized Q&A session with a knowledgeable lubrication engineer on a Ducati forum.

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=blbuus3sdt85etcfb1tvj3bap1&topic=1912.0

This is just one of his quotes regarding the Mobil 1 4T:


Regarding synthetic oil viscosity stability relative to temperature change. My primary thrust was to hammer home the principals of viscosity change for synthetics vs. mineral based oils. Full synthetic oils do change viscosity with temperature change but on a side by side charting, the differerences in those rate of changes are significant. The engine oil you are using is labeled as a "unique fully synthetic lubricant" but is very likely a Group III mineral based oil. In Europe Castrol won the case that Group III Mineral based oils could be termed "synthetic". Later Castrol achieved the same here in the U.S. As example, the pour point indicated on the Product Data Sheet for Shell Advance Ultra 4 10W-40 is -30C (-22F).
Mobil 1 MX4T 10W-40 has a pour point of -54C (-65F).
As you can see, the cold weather performance for a Group IV full, or shall we say 'real', synthetic engine oil is *significantly* lower than a Group III mineral base stock oil. The difference in pour points reflect the viscosity stability of a Group IV or Group V full synthetic... The same correlation applies for high temperature viscosity performance.
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Rotella Synthetic 5w40 diesel oil vs. Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil
« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2011, 02:44:16 PM »
Too much information...brain exploding....   :yikes:

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Offline Colt45

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Re: Rotella Synthetic 5w40 diesel oil vs. Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil
« Reply #69 on: November 17, 2011, 02:46:01 PM »
Nope, M1 15W 50 is not Jaso compliant. If that's important a person would not want to use this oil.

Years ago, a Mobil rep implied to me on the phone that the car 15W-50 would pass JASO MA, if they chose to pay for the testing.  Since they had a M/C product, they didn't try.  The labels and maybe the formulation has changed since then, though.
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Offline ZedHed

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Re: Rotella Synthetic 5w40 diesel oil vs. Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil
« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2011, 06:04:47 PM »
Rotella T6 5w-40 is a Group III+ oil because it is formulated from "slack" wax (wax isomerate) and not typical petroleum. Shell calls it XHVI base oil. XHVI rivals PAO in every way, it is just derived from a different source.  It is the same formulation as Shell Helix Ultra which is spec'd by Ferrari -- very good stuff, just not the optimum formulation for the C14.

Because RTS T6 starts out on the lower end of the 40 weight viscosity scale, it "shears" to a 30 weight quite quickly in the C14.  By 5000 miles, it could easily be in the 20 weight range.  Too low a viscosity for the C14.

Want to know if your oil is PAO ("real" synthetic) XHVI, or just ordinary "hydro-processed" Group III synthetic?

"Only XHVI is made from pure petroleum slack wax and its CAS number is 92026-09-4. The CAS number for the more typical all-hydroprocessed Group III base oils is 64742-54-7. If you want to know what your "synthetic" oil is made from, take a look at the MSDS and look for these numbers. (The CAS number for PAO is 68037-01-4)"  -- source BITOG --
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Offline Scaffolder

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Re: Rotella Synthetic 5w40 diesel oil vs. Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil
« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2011, 07:18:25 PM »
I have done 2 oil changes using Rotella T6 5W40 Synthetic oil since I've started this thread. Just saying.
Joel from Maine.

Offline Pokey

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Re: Rotella Synthetic 5w40 diesel oil vs. Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil
« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2011, 07:34:26 PM »
I have done 2 oil changes using Rotella T6 5W40 Synthetic oil since I've started this thread. Just saying.

You sir are an oils companies best friend.......with those intervals why not just use generic oils from the supermarkets? Unless you are just riding one helluva lot and still racking up the miles between changes. ;)
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Offline Frank ZZR

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Re: Rotella Synthetic 5w40 diesel oil vs. Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil
« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2011, 07:39:20 PM »
Years ago, a Mobil rep implied to me on the phone that the car 15W-50 would pass JASO MA, if they chose to pay for the testing.  Since they had a M/C product, they didn't try.  The labels and maybe the formulation has changed since then, though.
I've heard this as well and that's one reason why I continue to use it.
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Offline Scaffolder

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Re: Rotella Synthetic 5w40 diesel oil vs. Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil
« Reply #74 on: November 17, 2011, 07:41:35 PM »
I run just over 3000 miles per oil change. I think I've done 8 or 9 oil changes this year. I bought my new 2010 in January and have racked up 21,000 miles so far this year. Not bad for living in Maine.
Joel from Maine.

Offline lather

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Re: Rotella Synthetic 5w40 diesel oil vs. Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil
« Reply #75 on: November 17, 2011, 08:26:40 PM »
That is interesting but where does the pseudo synth Rotella 5w40 fit in the base weight category. It is dino based but engineered to meet classifiaction requirements of synth. Is there a clue here to the NOTCHY SHIFTING phenomenon?
This is only true when you're talking about mineral oils, not synthetics.  With synthetics it's just the opposite.  A 5W-40 is based on a 40 grade stock, and just happens to flow well enough (without VI modifiers) to earn the 5W rating as well.

Quote:

A 10W-30 synthetic oil is based on a 30 grade oil. This is unlike the counterpart mineral oil based on a 10 grade oil. There is no VI improver needed. The oil is already correct for the normal operating temperature of 212°F

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-103/
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Rotella Synthetic 5w40 diesel oil vs. Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil
« Reply #76 on: November 18, 2011, 02:22:17 PM »
I do not think that is at the root of the poor shifting because the old formula Rotella 5W- 40 was made from the same type of base oil as the current stuff. Something in the additive package changed and the only thing that we know changed was a large reduction of zinc and phosphorous in the form ZDDP. Of course there were probably other changes as well so really only Shell knows what might be causing the shifting quality change and perhaps not even them.

Brian

That is interesting but where does the pseudo synth Rotella 5w40 fit in the base weight category. It is dino based but engineered to meet classifiaction requirements of synth. Is there a clue here to the NOTCHY SHIFTING phenomenon?
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Offline Pokey

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Re: Rotella Synthetic 5w40 diesel oil vs. Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil
« Reply #77 on: November 18, 2011, 03:41:49 PM »
Mine has only shifted bad with Scamsoil.
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Offline ZedHed

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Re: Rotella Synthetic 5w40 diesel oil vs. Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil
« Reply #78 on: November 21, 2011, 02:15:30 PM »
That is interesting but where does the pseudo synth Rotella 5w40 fit in the base weight category. It is dino based but engineered to meet classifiaction requirements of synth. Is there a clue here to the NOTCHY SHIFTING phenomenon?

They are talking about Group IV and V synthetic oils -- not Group III like most of the common synthetic oils including Rotella T6.  PAOs and POEs ("real" synthetic) meet this quality because they are engineered from sources other than actual petroleum.  Group III synthetic oils contain VIIs but in smaller amounts than Group II conventional oils
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Offline ZedHed

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Re: Rotella Synthetic 5w40 diesel oil vs. Mobil 1 5w40 diesel oil
« Reply #79 on: November 21, 2011, 02:19:48 PM »
I have done 2 oil changes using Rotella T6 5W40 Synthetic oil since I've started this thread. Just saying.

How many miles is that?  If you're using RTS T6 -- you should be able to go at least go 4000-5000 miles before changing it.  But I still don't recommend using it at all in the C14...
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