This might be a new one here...carbon fouling UPDATE on page six

[Fretka]

I have not removed the hose, or the vent plate/cover it is inserted into, but I have looked closely thru the factory book about this when writing my responses. It does not appear to me to protrude any further than the top plate, and I tend to believe this as if it did go way down inside, it would create problems. It is just a vent. When you say yo got "oiled", did you mean from the other smaller line coming from the airbox that is defined as the box "drain/vent"?
It should have a reservoir at the bottom, near the throttle adjuster knob, and the fuel tank overflow hose, and both the fuel and airbox lines should be plugged below those plastic reservoirs. I understand that when you pressurize the airbox, you will be by all rights, also pressurizing the crankcase with that vent attached, removing the hose where it attaches to the plenum box at the rear, plugging the box fitting, and installing a small vent filter (K&N makes a tiny unit just for that purpose) in the hose, or even installing an automotive PCV valve inline with that small filter, will still allow positive venting of the crankcase without allowing stuff to be sucked back in there. I think plugging the case vent is not a good idea, as it does need venting, if not, you risk seal blowout on all the things that protrude into the engine, such as the cam position sensors, shift shaft, output shaft, valve cover, balancer shafts, etc.

The hose I removed was rubber, about 8 mm I.D. and about 5" long. It is attached at the top to the" top plate vent spigot" inside of the crankcase which exits the case then runs vertically to the left side of the engine and then continues up to the airbox.  The bottom end of this hose terminates just above the oil-pump pickup with just a raw end-cut held in place by a simple bent wire if I remember correctly.
I terminated the end of this hose externally, just as it makes a 90 d. turn up to the airbox and placed a K&N mini-filter in the end.
In other words the hose I removed is entirely internal of the crankcase. Page 332 of the manual shows a good picture and calls it "breather hose return".

My reason is because of positive crankcase pressure due to the turbo pushing oil up the hose and eventually into the airbox (or in my case the K&N filter). Pretty much like an engine with bad rings would do.

Sorry for the post as I don't think it germain to the main carbon issue of this thread.

Fretka

[Fretka]

While I don't think that running a 1 step hotter plug range will be the cure-all, it might be worth a thought.

Fretka

[xKLR]

please go back and read a bit more on this thread, to see a bit better of what was already covered, ok?

Ah yes, now I see that baddean frequents Marathon when around home. Marathon is not a top tier fuel supplier. That could be part of the problem.

[MAN OF BLUES]

..Sorry for the post as I don't think it germain to the main carbon issue of this thread.

Fretka

No, on the contrary, and it sheds a lot of important info for someone doing a turbo....and I thank you!!!

The only hose I could see exiting the vent plate, is connected to the vent plate/cover w/ a 90* fitting, and the exit of that fitting seems to allign with a hole in the block below the cover. I have to assume there is some internal passage there, with a "collection recess" that is open to the main area of the case to allow the venting, but only allows any air/oil vapor to go up the hose marked "breather", and any oil to drain back down to that collection reservoir, and be pulled back thru the internal passage thru the short rubber hose you noted that can be removed from below( the one that fits on a "nipple" about 4 inches above the sump intake, and is held in a "C" shaped clip on that intake, upper end has a hose clamp to hold it in place on the nipple). I can see where if the case is pressurized by the turbo pressurizing the air plenum, this will in turn tend to force liquid up into that drain area below the breather hose, and  when you back off the throttle allow a lot to be sucked back up there... I'm not disagreeing with you at all....
You were correct to remove the bottom hose, I don't think this will make a venting problem, and it may have been all that was needed no?
I can see the whole thing clearly now, and understand WHY so much oil was present, and I believe you did what was needed to cure it. I just never noticed the additional "oil return" hose dipping down there.

cool job, your case is vented correctly, I was just not understanding "what" was the modification you made.
Thanks,

[okxd45]

So would adding seafoam in the intake be the cure for the carbon build up?  I have a friend who swears by seafoam and puts it in the oil gas and intake.  Would it hurt the bike to run it in the intake, and where would be the best place to get to the intake. 

[Fretka]

I can see where if the case is pressurized by the turbo pressurizing the air plenum, this will in turn tend to force liquid up into that drain area below the breather hose, and  when you back off the throttle allow a lot to be sucked back up there.

There is no longer any connection from airbox to crankcase as that would pressurize the case with 8 #'s of air, all the sundry holes/vents have been sealed in the airbox.
The (hopefully) small amount of positive pressure prolly is gas past the rings.

[Fretka]

So would adding seafoam in the intake be the cure for the carbon build up?  I have a friend who swears by seafoam and puts it in the oil gas and intake.  Would it hurt the bike to run it in the intake, and where would be the best place to get to the intake.

Delco makes/usta make a quart size product for de-carboning engines. You would attach a small dia. hose to the container and the other end to an intake/vacuum source and let the engine run for 10 mins. or so.
I think Seafoam is mostly isopropyl alcohol which binds water but you'll have to check that.

If you were going to de-carbon I think the Delco product would be my first/best bet for serious results.

Fretka

[Fretka]

BTW... I think the main reason that this internal oil hose exists at all might be to keep bulk oil from the airbox in case of a tip-over.

Freka

[MAN OF BLUES]

this is the "pro" grade stuff, used with specialized systems...but I'm sure you can figure it out...
http://www.zakproducts.com/index.php?submenu=Fuel&src=gendocs&ref=Services-FuelSystem&category=Services

click on the products tab at the right, down in the middle of the page...

[baddean]

Hey All,
Just got off of the phone with Bill at Bore Tech and he has the valves out of the head and is cleaning it up.
Here is what he discovered. Looks like MOB was on the right track. All of the intake valve seats need to be "skim" dressed and reseated to clean up mild pitting due to the valves "probably" being set too tight. We won't ever know that for sure because the clearances weren't checked prior to disassembling the engine, but Bill is pretty sure this could be the cause. This would be the reason that the carbon buildup was worse near the intake area of the combustion chamber. Intake valve seats are generally softer than the exhaust seats and if the intake valves are held open too long (as in set too tight) they can be subjected to hot combustion gases that they are not designed for and would cause unburnt fuel mixture to be present in the combustion chamber.
The exhaust valve seats will also need to be cleaned up and valves reseated due to carbon fouling that appears to have been "pounded" in to the seats causing the exhaust valves to not seat properly. As you will recall the number 2 cylinder exhaust valves badly failed a leak down test.
Bottom line here is that I'm a (poorer) Dumb A$$ for waiting too long for the second valve check and air filter check.
And that MOB is more than likely right on the money in his accessment of the problem.
Will keep updated on any further developements.
Thanks for all of the ideas, thoughts, and comments.
Guys and gals, keep those valves adjusted!!!
Dean

[okxd45]

Thanks for the update and the lesson. Valve check will happen on schedule!

[B.D.F.]

Thanks.... I think. 

As far as fractals goes, that is all fine and well until they try to apply it to the universe I live in. Just because you don't know exactly where something is (or its velocity) does not mean it is not somewhere exactly. Besides, I side with Big Al when he said "Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the "old one." I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice."

Then again, I don't think the OP's engine carbon problem was caused by tight intake valve clearances. I am not really sure what I think may have caused that problem but the suggestion that it was a mechanical fault, at 27K miles, does not sound logical to me. Unfortunately the underlying cause will probably never be known.

Brian

That breather tube goes down into the deepest recesses of the sump. One way to get at it is to pull the bottom pan and there ya go! I removed mine completely due to positive crankcase pressure from the turbo, got real tired of oiling down my left pant leg.
Yep, I agree that if you do good works as you have MOB, then you deserve thanks and respect for doing it. You have mine. Also I think I'll use Brian BDF as my new role model  He has a healthy way of looking at things (except for the Mandlebrot/Julia set fetish). 

Fretka

[MAN OF BLUES]

Thanks.... I think. 
.....
Then again, I don't think the OP's engine carbon problem was caused by tight intake valve clearances. I am not really sure what I think may have caused that problem but the suggestion that it was a mechanical fault, at 27K miles, does not sound logical to me. Unfortunately the underlying cause will probably never be known.

Brian

Brian, there's a big difference in a "tight clearance", and a "constant contact"......

 

and actually, even with the head removed, with the cams and vlaves all in place it could have been measured.....

Glad to hear you are on the way to getting the bike right again Dean, I'm sure there is a lot to be said for checking valves now, 

Likely just a couple spins of each valve with some compund will clean them up good as new, and should suffice.
I would suggest though, they may want to check ring gaps on the pistons, and even lightly re-hone to break the glaze on the cylinders (LIGHTLY), as some carbon may have slipped down there, worth the minimal effort while it's torn down so far......

Fractals?....Brian, where do you come up with this stuff?......you crack me up man 

[MAN OF BLUES]

So would adding seafoam in the intake be the cure for the carbon build up?  I have a friend who swears by seafoam and puts it in the oil gas and intake.  Would it hurt the bike to run it in the intake, and where would be the best place to get to the intake.

a couple comments, mind you, they are only comments and not construed as gospel...

In the c10 world, the famous SISF Steve and I both have feelings that in some cases we found degradation of the rubber tips on the float needles of the carbs, specifically found more often on bikes where libberal doses of seafoam, and other "stuff" (B-12 berrymans, etc..) had been dumped in, and let set for long periods of time, in lieu of burning up the complete tankfull it was dosed to. with that said, there are some pretty expensive rubber parts inside this C14, that if this were to be an issue, may render more $$ repair than not.
Running the treated fuel completly out is the main safe bet, not dumping it in and letting it set. I would not like to see fuel pump seals after that happens....

as for "injection" into the running bike i.e. how it's done when cleaning a fuel rail on a car, I don't think we can accomplish this easily, and it is probable needless to do with the injectors anyways, as I have yet to hear feedback on a faulty injector to date...yet.
BUT...
I suppose it would be possible to do a "de-carbonizing" douch, by all rights, if a minimal flow, evenly distributed and metered, could be introduced into the vacume inlets we use for synching, it would effectivly do the trick, with the bike running about 2k rpm, over a period of 5 minutes or so, using the cleaners i noted in a prior posting here... of course you would need a monster fan setup to keep the bike cool during the process, but I have "douched" old carbon fouled car engines both thru intake manifold fittings, and directly thru the carb body.... no difference when trying to de-carbon the combustion chamber.

I do caution though, your post mentions adding things to the oil.....that would be bad...very very bad.....do not put it in the oil.....

[B.D.F.]

Well, constant contact of the valve lobe but no contact of the valve with the valve seat.  As I said, just my opinion and impossible to know now that the shims have almost certainly been mixed up and the valves re-seated. But there are too many other symptoms that would appear long before excessive carbon once valves, especially intake valves, start to hang open.

If the valve lash was small enough to cause significant changes in running characteristics, I would think the owner would notice 1) that cylinder skipping with partial or total power loss. 2) the backfiring of that cylinder's induction system when the combustion flame backs up into the throttle body. 3) the lack of power as well as the terrible vibration from running on 3 or 3 1/2 cylinders. 

I would find it far easier to believe that there was a load of contamination of fuel that the OP was using- say a 5% mix of diesel fuel in the gasoline storage tank. That would expose his bike to a long run of heavy carbon by products.

At any rate, I think we can all agree that this was a freak occurrence and not at all common or even occasional. Other than the occasional reports here and there on the Internet, this seems to be a one- off occurrence. An interesting problem but not really worth too much research on the cause due to the rarity as well as the likelihood that we will never find that cause.

OFFTOPIC. Way, way OFFTOPIC: Fractals- that was a response to Fretka because of his post referencing Mandelbrot, a pioneer in fractal geometry and mathematics. It seems we (Fretka and I) disagree regarding quantum mechanics; fractals are fine, as is 'quanta' but I disagree with the concept of applying the underlying uncertainty to the real world. I believe Fretka has been horribly misled by some seemingly cleaver people such as Neils Bohr. I am more of a follower of Albert 'Big Al' Einstein who would not fall into that trap even though it was his work that led to the very discovery and later ruination of that field. Either that or Bohr was right and I just cannot accept the "fact" that there is only a 70% probability that I am actually sitting here and typing this.... 

Brian

Brian, there's a big difference in a "tight clearance", and a "constant contact"......

 

and actually, even with the head removed, with the cams and vlaves all in place it could have been measured.....

Glad to hear you are on the way to getting the bike right again Dean, I'm sure there is a lot to be said for checking valves now, 

Likely just a couple spins of each valve with some compund will clean them up good as new, and should suffice.
I would suggest though, they may want to check ring gaps on the pistons, and even lightly re-hone to break the glaze on the cylinders (LIGHTLY), as some carbon may have slipped down there, worth the minimal effort while it's torn down so far......

Fractals?....Brian, where do you come up with this stuff?......you crack me up man 

[Fretka]

OFFTOPIC. Way, way OFFTOPIC: Fractals- that was a response to Fretka because of his post referencing Mandelbrot, a pioneer in fractal geometry and mathematics. It seems we (Fretka and I) disagree regarding quantum mechanics; fractals are fine, as is 'quanta' but I disagree with the concept of applying the underlying uncertainty to the real world. I believe Fretka has been horribly misled by some seemingly cleaver people such as Neils Bohr. I am more of a follower of Albert 'Big Al' Einstein who would not fall into that trap even though it was his work that led to the very discovery and later ruination of that field. Either that or Bohr was right and I just cannot accept the "fact" that there is only a 70% probability that I am actually sitting here and typing this.... 

If a man is typing in the woods....and no-one hears him.............

Fretka  (Collapsing wave-fronts at will)

[B.D.F.]

Sure Fretka, sure. What color is the sky in your universe?

 

Brian

If a man is typing in the woods....and no-one hears him.............

Fretka  (Collapsing wave-fronts at will)

[Fretka]

Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds (c'mon now, everyone sing along)...........

This is what happens to a once meaningful thread that I just won't let die......

[stevewfl]

We could still be stuck in the herd mentality of  the faulty KiPass or flying luggage threads of days gone by

[Son of Pappy]

If the fob batteries had been changed none of this woulda happened.  Let this be a lesson to those who dare question the powahs of KiPASS!!