to flie or not to flie, that is the question...

[B.D.F.]

Only some F.I. systems can compensate for changes in airflow caused by external sources (like removing the 'flies) and our bikes do not use one of those systems.

Motorcycles use a system called Alpha N, mixed with another system called Speed- Density to control the fuel injection. These systems are based on engine RPM and throttle opening, and can be altered somewhat by local pressure in the induction system, the ambient temp., etc. But the two key inputs are RPM and throttle angle (throttle opening) which is totally defeated when the 'flies are removed; the F.I. system is calculating how much fuel is needed when the secondary 'flies are at, say, 10% open and in fact, they are 100% open because they have been removed.

The only other way to adjust for something like this would be with a closed- loop system, which would measure the results of how an engine is running and adjust the air / fuel map for future use. Unfortunately our bikes do not have O2 sensors and so cannot compensate even after a bad mixture is burned.

There is nothing wrong with Alpha N as a system; in fact, it is the one usually used in racing. It is just that it cannot compensate for any significant changes made to the mechanics of the system and removing a set of throttle plates is a huge change.

Brian

Brian, your points are very good. But one comment.  Electronic fuel injections systems can compensate to some degree for changes in air flow.  The question is whether or not the change without the flies is significant enough or not.  Because the air flow with the flies out is similar to the air flow with the flies fully open, there is a chance that the system can compensate, don't you think?  I assume there is a throttle position sensor which could effect my thinking - I'm not sure how much that would limit the ability to meter in enough fuel.  Food for thought.

[jjsC6]

Brian - great explanation (again!).  Thanks

[ZG]

My bike was purchased with flys out, Full AREA P, Filter, PC-V, and Autotune, and came with a 150 rwhp dyno sheet.  It was a little notchy or "on/off" at part throttle, and a G2 Throttle Tamer fixed it right up.  10 minute install there.

I rode my buddy's bone stock C14 (we both have 08s) and I can tell you, ride BOTH, and once you do, I can't imagine wanting to stay with the stock configuration.  My buddy fully admits mine pulls in 6th as hard as his pulls in 4th.  I put 50 miles on his bike, and it felt like I was riding a 600, and the throttle response was nonexistent - no crispness at all.  The bike simply did not pull, and nothing happens down low.  I routinely shift my bike at 3K or 4K when not riding "spiritedly" and it pulls fine at that rpm...  my buddy's bike, not so much.  I had no idea, as I had only ever ridden my modded C14. 

Bottom line, get a test ride on a properly modded C14 before deciding NOT to mod your bike.  My buddy is dying to mod his now.  It's killing him to ride his stock.........

YMMV,
Barry

Barry,
My question isn't regarding a C14 with mods vs stock, it's only in regards to pulling the flies if the bike has the mods done to it.


I know that a C14 with full system, filter, and PCV will put out more power etc than a stock one. 


My question is the difference between a C14 with a full system, filter, and PCV vs. full system, filter, PCV, and flies pulled...

[Gearhead82]

Barry,
My question isn't regarding a C14 with mods vs stock, it's only in regards to pulling the flies if the bike has the mods done to it.


I know that a C14 with full system, filter, and PCV will put out more power etc than a stock one. 


My question is the difference between a C14 with a full system, filter, and PCV vs. full system, filter, PCV, and flies pulled...

I've seen dyno charts of flies pulled, versus flies in.  The difference is about an additional 10-12 ft/lbs of torque from 2-4k rpm and tapering back into the stock torque curve around 6k.  I think it was on the old site before the crash where I saw the dyno charts.  I'm going from memory but I'm very sure of the 10-12 ft/lb part.

I had about 500 miles on my '09 before I pulled the flies.  The rest of the bike was stock for the couple weeks it took me to order a PCV.  The difference in low end torque and throttle response is significant even before the PCV, though the PCV did help even more.

[Awaz]

I have a question on PCV. When you buy one, does it already come loaded with the map you need for flies out? Or does it have to be tuned? Basically, how do you get the correct map loaded? Sorry - new to such fuel management.

[Son of Pappy]

I have a question on PCV. When you buy one, does it already come loaded with the map you need for flies out? Or does it have to be tuned? Basically, how do you get the correct map loaded? Sorry - new to such fuel management.

Contact these guys, let em know what ya have and they will ship with correct MAP already loaded.
http://www.fuelmotousa.com/

[Gearhead82]

I have a question on PCV. When you buy one, does it already come loaded with the map you need for flies out? Or does it have to be tuned? Basically, how do you get the correct map loaded? Sorry - new to such fuel management.

If you order your PCV from Fuel Moto ( http://www.fuelmotousa.com/ ) it will come loaded with the appropriate map for your bike.  There are also a few generic maps on the dynojet website for different modifications or people can share their custom tunes with each other.

[Awaz]

Awesome. Thanks guys. After reading this thread, I am contemplating pulling the flies. Not to get more power - the C14 already has enough thank goodness. But just the fact that at low - mid rpm it will be at a better power band (correct me if I am wrong please). Normally I find myself sitting at 2500 - 3000 cruising down the highway. Occasionally touching 4000 when passing. I really have not seen how it feels past 6000 rpm....sheesh....kinda embarrassing to say that. Unfortunately, like someone said, my governor is in the back seat 99% of the time. It would be nice to put the bike on a better power band at those rpms.

[Barry]

Barry,
My question isn't regarding a C14 with mods vs stock, it's only in regards to pulling the flies if the bike has the mods done to it.


I know that a C14 with full system, filter, and PCV will put out more power etc than a stock one. 


My question is the difference between a C14 with a full system, filter, and PCV vs. full system, filter, PCV, and flies pulled...

Reading is fundamental... I was responding in part to some of the "why mod it it is sooooo fast already" comments.  Sorry for the confusion.

Mo Betta' Bottom End....  a flys in/flys out dyno chart would be nice.

Barry

[Fearless]

I purchased my 08 C14 used with a 2 Bros Slip on. I liked the sound, but could tell that it didn't have the bottom end power that the stock muffler provided. I pulled the flies and added the PCV and it became a new bike. Better bottom end and ran a lot smoother (due to the PCV). I believe the PCV would be worth it's money even on a stock set up.

I recently upgraded to the Area P full exhaust & new map, and it feels like a new bike again, pulling noticeably stronger from around 5,000 on up to the limiter. This set up is very smooth, and the power-band is just incredible. I also increased my MPG by 5 MPG (43 increased to 48).

I had the opportunity to drop it on a Dyno last weekend and it ran just what the Area P site claims (147.7) HP which is roughly 19 HP over stock (stock C14 runs 128 hp) and the torque increase is totally sick.

With your set up, I would consider adding the PCV first. With the right map for your slip on, you should pick up additional HP, it will run even smoother, and you will probably get better MPG. You can then remove the flies if you want more low end torque and you can always put them back in.

So I know many of you have pulled your flies, I still have not but am currently only running a slip-on.
 
I'd like to hear some concrete facts on pro's and con's of doing this... 
 
Does it make more hp? More torque? Less? Smoother? Harsher? (sp?) Only do with full system? Do not do with stock config? MPG? Remap required? etc, etc, etc...
 
I'd like to hear both sides of the fence on this...
 
I'm currently considering going to a full system with PCV and filter, I spoke with my shop today and they recommended not pulling the flies, they said doing it wouldn't produce anymore power, but would make it run more "rough/harsh"...
 
I'm confused. 
 
Thanks in advance! Oh, and yes I already looked through all the threads with the search feature, seems to only be pro's from people that do it (kinda broad statements like "yes, do it", etc), not much from folks saying don't because... 

[NDCUNIONGUY]

'08, No-flies, Area-P can, PCV, stock filter. 

I have had some time on a stock '09 and I can speak to the differences between 2-4,500 rpm.  Stock is restricted and smoooooth, sedate even.  The modded engines are allowed to make all power available and at lower rpms that does translate to bigger power pulses through the powertrain and contact patches.  If you or perhaps more importantly, your co-pilot get freaked when riding in the rain or on brand new rubber, then keeping the flies is a good idea.  If you value the visceral amplification of having to master your throttle inputs to keep your adrenalin flowing but your hide(s) intact, then lose the flies.  We all bought Connies not Wings, so clearly we value manueverability and power over comfort and boredom.  Personally, I live and ride in (mostly) 60 mph and under land.  Having the flies out means the opportunity for full-rip first gear runs to redline that are stress-relieving and don't result in attention from the man.  The flies take too much out of the bottom and midrange.  That makes the perfect (front wheel skimming) launch too hard to nail without a lot of work. 

It's a personal and totally reversible decision.  Try it you'll like it....

[ZG]

Well as it stands right now I'm leaning towards leaving them in, at least for a little while...


Here's my logic, tell me if I'm misunderstanding anything...


1.) The one comment that seems to be consistent on here so far is that removing them only adds grunt/torque at the lower rpm's. When I'm at lower rpm's I'm usually just tootn' around, commuting, or have mama on the back. For that type of riding maybe smoother with them in is better for me.


2.) When I'm getting on it in the twisties I am usually always playing in the higher rpm's, I don't come into or out of turns a 3k rpm's, from what folks are saying removing them will have zero effect on the higher rpm's torque.


3.) I currently have a slip-on, so I know what that feels like and what power it makes on the dyno. I just ordered a full system, PCV, and K&N, so I want to see what that difference is alone with those on my Connie before removing the flies, if I remove the flies at the same time as doing the other mods there is no way to tell if they had any affect or not.


4.) I can always down the road then decide to remove the flies and be able to truly compare the difference running with or without them.


5.) As many folks that I've talked to about removing them it's split on doing it vs not, 50/50 is not enough for me to jump in, for now...




So what do you think, sound logic?? 

[B.D.F.]

If you really want to 'split the difference', just take the 'flies out of throttle bodies 1 and 3. That will leave 2 and 4 stock and yield a nice, 'middle of the road' solution.

Brian

Well as it stands right now I'm leaning towards leaving them in, at least for a little while...


Here's my logic, tell me if I'm misunderstanding anything...

<snipped some logic>

5.) As many folks that I've talked to about removing them it's split on doing it vs not, 50/50 is not enough for me to jump in, for now...




So what do you think, sound logic?? 

[NDCUNIONGUY]

ZG:  Your first priority was clearly the most important.  Happy wife, happy life...

You seem to have a good grasp of how you want and need to use your bike.  If I were in your saddle I'd leave them alone and post my feedback on the differences between the full AreaP and a slipon after a few tanks.  I may want that too.

Enjoy.

[ZG]

ZG:  Your first priority was clearly the most important.  Happy wife, happy life...

You seem to have a good grasp of how you want and need to use your bike.  If I were in your saddle I'd leave them alone and post my feedback on the differences between the full AreaP and a slipon after a few tanks.  I may want that too.

Enjoy.

Thanks NDCguy.


The full system I just ordered is a full Muzzys dual system, not the AP system...

[Rawman]

ZG

Yes,

I think a lot of people would be interested in the findings.  Usually if going full exhaust route, everyone pulls the flies.

I know I am interested in what you find.

BTW, when I pulled the flies, I didn't notice the "snatchy" or abrupt power on/off that a lot seem to get.  I ride 2 up 25% of the time.

[ZG]

Ok guys, sorry but I guess I will not have the will power to be the Sherlok Holmes to this ongoing debate after all...
 
All my parts are now arrived (full Muzzys dual carbon fiber, PCV, K&N) and I dropped my bike off today for install, at the last minute I changed my mind and decided to just have them pull the flies while they have it all apart...
 
I know, I know, many of you wanted to see the before and after dyno results of the flies piece to this equation, I'm sorry... 
 
I just got off the phone with my shop, so far they have removed all the body work, pulled the flies, plugged the air injection and were in the process of the dual Muzzys install... 
 
Tomorrow they'll install and map the PCV and I get to pick her up, can't wait!!
 

[gPink]

I believe you'll find the setup to be truly awesume.

[Fearless]

ZG,

You will have a smile from ear to ear when you stretch it out and let the big dog eat.

[Wanderlust]

BDF, your quote (emphasis mine)

"I personally don't look at removing the 'flies as a performance mod. as much as simply removing the factory supplied 'governor'. The bike acts exactly like a 1400 cc motorcycle should once the 'flies are removed; it is not a beast or unmanageable or anything similar but again, it is a big bike with a big, relatively powerful engine. "

Brian

Can you elaborate on what you mean by the "factory supplied governor"? I wasn't aware the Connie had something like that on it.

Thanks.