Removing Flies

[B.D.F.]

Interesting because Cory put his (as would I) in the flats provided by Kawasaki, which is exactly where they put their O2 sensors on all the non- US, non- Canadian bikes to use a closed- loop system.

And post cat O2 sensors are readily available.

Most of us buy PC maps from Fuel Moto, and they generate their own maps on their dyno. No need to put a temporary 'end stick' O2 sensor in when using that method.

And of course, Dyno Jet (the manufacturer) is a pretty large company with a full dealer network, who also make the majority of the dynos used for motorcycles; I believe they know where to install an O2 sensor and how to take accurate readings.

And still this is a thread about removing 'flies. But that too is OK 'cause I will answer the OP's questions about the actual subject too.... and at no cost whatsoever. 

Brian

   Actually, bringing up Rembrant's closed loop tuning , and talk of power commander maps brings up an opportunity for me to share some tuning insight for those wanting to use a pcv.

   A knowledgeable person like Cory will know that to get proper a/f readings for autotuning the WB02 sensor must be placed in front of the cats. Done this way, true a/f readings are achieved, and good fueling can be achieved through autotuning. The problem with the canned maps that are offered with power commander is that those maps are generally "map-share" maps. They are maps generated by end users, on a dyno, and then shared with other users. That's fine for most bikes, but the c-14 throws a big glitch in there, because we have catalytic converters. The issue is that the a/f ratio post cat is not reliable for tuning, because the cat has depleted the 02 in order to complete the redox process. Post cat readings will read rich, and if tuned to, will result in lean fueling.

   I recently had an occasion to remove a pcv and install a flash on an 09. We did baseline dyno runs, and there was a pretty substantial dip in the power around 5000 rpm with the pcv. After the flash, it's gone, the power is strong and linear. So I wondered what the differences were in the mapping. What I found was astonishing... the maps in that area were completely different. The PCV map was pulling out between 20-30% fuel, and my mapping, generated with a WB02 if front of the cats, was actually adding about 8% in the same range. Vastly different approaches. But that's what happens when the dyno operator shoves the sniffer up the tailpipe with no consideration for the cats.

    If you're going to use a pcv, at least get the autotune kit and install it pre-cat, and then you will have some accurate fueling information. just bolting on a PCV and using a canned maps might be easy, but it won't be right. This is one major difference between the ordinary guy wanting to "pump up" his bike's power and a seasoned guy like Cory, and as you can see the initial approach makes all the difference in the world to the final result. Steve

 

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

Interesting because Cory put his (as would I) in the flats provided by Kawasaki, which is exactly where they put their O2 sensors on all the non- US, non- Canadian bikes to use a closed- loop system.

And post cat O2 sensors are readily available.

Most of us buy PC maps from Fuel Moto, and they generate their own maps on their dyno. No need to put a temporary 'end stick' O2 sensor in when using that method.

And of course, Dyno Jet (the manufacturer) is a pretty large company with a full dealer network, who also make the majority of the dynos used for motorcycles; I believe they know where to install an O2 sensor and how to take accurate readings.

And still this is a thread about removing 'flies. But that too is OK 'cause I will answer the OP's questions about the actual subject too.... and at no cost whatsoever. 

Brian

   I think you missed the point... My 02 sensor is where the stock sensors go... so was Cory's.  He was getting proper readings, so his fuel would have been accurate. That's different from someone just bolting on a PCV and calling it good.

   Post cat 02 sensors don't rectify the seemingly rich readings. In fact the concept of post cat 02's is to check if the cat is working... the result of less 02 is higher voltage readings. This is how a front / rear 02 sensor system works. The front 02 sets the fuel trim, the rear sensor is really for checking the cat efficiency. Post cat 02 sensors, from my research, only impact fuel trim a max of 2%.

    I've explained how some mapshare maps are generated. If Fuelmoto built their maps with a pre-cat 02 sensor in place, those maps would be fine. Post cat? Nope.

  as far as the OP's question about removing flies, the advise you gave was to install a pcv. If the OP (and you too,  Brian) Haven't learned any valuable info in this post and my last post, then I really have to wonder if anyone really wants their bike to run better, or just bolt on stuff so they can say "I have this on my bike, so it's fast". Steve

[B.D.F.]

No, I did not advise anyone to install a PC, this is what I stated:

"Most suggest that if you remove them, you add a Power Commander PC V or similar to re- map the fuel mixture. That said, there are people out there who are running the bike with the 'flies removed but otherwise stock and have reported no problem doing that either. "

Note the words 'most' and 'suggest', I did not advise anyone to do anything, I merely mentioned what some suggest. It is not my place to tell others what to do / not do with their property and I do not do that.

As to what I have learned from this thread, I have to say that I cannot think of anything. I think I have a very good understanding of how IC engines work, including the control schemes used on modern vehicles including the C-14. And I believe I understand this from several different angles including the chemistry, physics and mechanics (for example, I understand why the Wankel design, though fascinating, is a lousy design). But as I said before, I am no expert, merely a student of those with so very much intelligence and talent that have preceded me and did me the courtesy of writing down so much valuable information. I do not believe I would have surmised Bernoulli's principle but I am able to grasp the concept as long as I read slowly and carefully enough so as not to misconstrue what Mr. Bernoulli was trying to convey.

And mentioning your valuable information just reaffirms that you really think a lot of yourself and your knowledge. Too bad because if you were to look at just a little bit of the world, present and past, you might realize that there are, and have been in the past, some very intelligent, able people, far beyond average and into the 'gifted' range. I know this because I have followed some of those people's work but I do not remember any of them having to point out how valuable their writings were.

Brian

<snip>

  as far as the OP's question about removing flies, the advise you gave was to install a pcv. If the OP (and you too,  Brian) Haven't learned any valuable info in this post and my last post, then I really have to wonder if anyone really wants their bike to run better, or just bolt on stuff so they can say "I have this on my bike, so it's fast". Steve

[Deziner]

There are performance gains to had by modifying a C14, just like virtually every other stock production vehicle. More often than not, those gains are subjective. As are the ways to achieve them. Some courses have been around for years (flyectomy w/PCV, Guhel reflash), others are new (Steve's reflash).

Deciding which is "best" is open to debate. Obviously. I am sure all will yield gains. Decisions, decisions. The petite blonde, the curvaceous brunette, the sultry redhead. All first world problems, to be sure. As a young lady once said to me, and I quote, "I don't care how you get me there, just as long as we go."

What a wonderful world we live in to have such dilemmas to deal with. My .02

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

Just a heads up Brian, I just had a fellow here having 2 ECU's flashed as a ride - in. At the end of it, he asked if there was any way to defeat the low fuel prompt that takes over the lcd screen. I directed him to this site, and to contact you for the cool dongle you built and supply. since I'm wrong about everything else, was I wrong to have advised him about contacting you? Steve

[VirginiaJim]

Here we go again....sigh.  You guys just can't play together in the same sandbox.

[PlaynInPeoria]

Interesting. I bought products from both and they don't like each other.

[zarticus]

I say lets have a thread called the sandbox & just let people duke it out   

[gPink]

Interesting. I bought products from both and they don't like each other.

Wow, maybe it's you. 

[VirginiaJim]

I say lets have a thread called the sandbox & just let people duke it out 

We have that thread here.  It's called the Arena.

[maxtog]

We have that thread here.  It's called the Arena.

Most people no see

[gPink]

We have that thread here.  It's called the Arena.

Most people no see

We have standards.

[maxtog]

We have standards.

That is debatable!

[gPink]

That is debatable!

You can't prove we don't.

[maxtog]

You can't prove we don't.

In science, you can't prove a negative!

[Deziner]

We have standards.

You didn't mention how high or low those standards are...

[PlaynInPeoria]

Wow, maybe it's you. 

I get that a lot?