Removing Flies

[Delfox]

What are the advantages and disadvantages of removing the flies,and woulsd anything else be needed ie pcv?

[MrPepsi]

I have concluded that you are better off having your ECU flashed by Steve in Sunny Florida than removing your flies.

[B.D.F.]

The 'flies restrict the engine's power output at low to medium engine speeds. At WOT and at 7K RPM, the 'flies are fully open and no longer have any effect on the engine. Removing them increases the low end and mid- range power of the bike; I do not think of it as a performance mod. but rather just restoring the bike to the 1400 cc motorcycle you thought you bought in the first place; the 'flies 'tame' the bike (I would say they neuter the bike) at low to mid throttle settings.

Most suggest that if you remove them, you add a Power Commander PC V or similar to re- map the fuel mixture. That said, there are people out there who are running the bike with the 'flies removed but otherwise stock and have reported no problem doing that either.

Just a thought but lots and lots of information available if you do a forum search.

Brian

What are the advantages and disadvantages of removing the flies,and woulsd anything else be needed ie pcv?

[B.D.F.]

As opposed to a Guhl re-flash?

And just curious but what data led you to this conclusion if you do not mind me asking Brent?

Brian

I have concluded that you are better off having your ECU flashed by Steve in Sunny Florida than removing your flies.

[MrPepsi]

Not enough to satisfy you I assure you. 

[JerBear]

I removed the secondary flies about three years ago.  An easy job but some people had a much harder time with the screwdriver camming out and rounding off the head.  I just put steady pressure on the back of the screwdriver to keep it seated in the screw and straight into it. Removing the flies can lean the motor out a bit i've been told, but most people said the bike runs rich from the factory and there was always a slight sooty deposit on the exhaust that probably agrees with that.  As such, a PCV or juicebox was not needed but would give somewhat better performance if you knew what you were doing with mapping.  I did not have an idea how to do that so I never installed a tuner but I did notice a much better response down low and don't regret removing the flies.  I am considering replacing them and getting either the Guhl or SISF flash as many people are very happy with those efforts and a great deal of time has gone into fine tuning the data.  If I do that my hope is to smooth out the acceleration as it really snaps after 4-4.5K rpm now.

[maxtog]

What are the advantages and disadvantages of removing the flies,and woulsd anything else be needed ie pcv?

There are a lot of threads about this (which can be long and confusing).   For performance, either reflashing (to reprogram flies) or removal of secondary butterflies is a must....  hands-down the best thing you can do to the C14 to make it behave like it should.

Major points are-

Reflash ECU:  easily done, nothing else needed, retains FEAM mode for stock comparison
Removal:  lots more work, should also have PCV, more control (if custom maps and such)

Cost is potentially the same either way, depending on various factors.

[B.D.F.]

Which sounds a lot like.... "I bought product X and it is the most wonderful of them all".     

Not to worry Brent, lots of people (most I think) buy one thing and pronounce it both excellent and better than all the others. If you do not believe that, ask anyone, at random, what kind of heating / cooling system is best..... then ask them how many different heating / cooling systems they have experience with. Yep, one, and it is the very best heating / cooling system known to man, and they will proclaim that from the highest mountains.

But besides all that, the OP asked about removing 'flies, not what anyone thought about a re-flash. Double 

Brian

Not enough to satisfy you I assure you. 

[B.D.F.]

For about the same price, you could install a PC V or similar and leave the 'flies out. That will yield the best performance, at least in my opinion and experience. But if you do re- install the 'flies and have the ECU re-flashed, it would be great if you would report any change in performance here.

As far as installing a Power Commander or one of its competitors, you basically have to remove the left side mid- fairing from the bike. The PC will plug in- line with a harness on the bike. Pretty easy to do with the hardest part being to remove the fairing IMO.

Brian

I removed the secondary flies about three years ago.  An easy job but some people had a much harder time with the screwdriver camming out and rounding off the head.  I just put steady pressure on the back of the screwdriver to keep it seated in the screw and straight into it. Removing the flies can lean the motor out a bit i've been told, but most people said the bike runs rich from the factory and there was always a slight sooty deposit on the exhaust that probably agrees with that.  As such, a PCV or juicebox was not needed but would give somewhat better performance if you knew what you were doing with mapping.  I did not have an idea how to do that so I never installed a tuner but I did notice a much better response down low and don't regret removing the flies.  I am considering replacing them and getting either the Guhl or SISF flash as many people are very happy with those efforts and a great deal of time has gone into fine tuning the data.  If I do that my hope is to smooth out the acceleration as it really snaps after 4-4.5K rpm now.

[JerBear]

For about the same price, you could install a PC V or similar and leave the 'flies out. That will yield the best performance, at least in my opinion and experience. But if you do re- install the 'flies and have the ECU re-flashed, it would be great if you would report any change in performance here.

As far as installing a Power Commander or one of its competitors, you basically have to remove the left side mid- fairing from the bike. The PC will plug in- line with a harness on the bike. Pretty easy to do with the hardest part being to remove the fairing IMO.

Brian

I have a question Brian, a power commander work with what is commonly called "Maps" as I said, I have no experience with this type of device.  I know it essentially changes the fuel ratios and perhaps other things as well but are they plug and play or are adjustments required?  I have no idea as to how they really work and how difficult they may be to adjust (tune) to get the desired results.

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

For about the same price, you could install a PC V or similar and leave the 'flies out. That will yield the best performance, at least in my opinion and experience.

   So tell us Brian, about your experience? How many bike have you modified, besides your own? And how do you know so much about flashing and the changes involved when you have never built a flash for a c-14, or even seen the maps from a c-14?

  Perhaps your prophetic words below are the exact fact of how you came to your own opinion. You have no experience other than with your own bike, but you proclaim it best... from the highest mountains!

  "Not to worry Brent, lots of people (most I think) buy one thing and pronounce it both excellent and better than all the others. If you do not believe that, ask anyone, at random, what kind of heating / cooling system is best..... then ask them how many different heating / cooling systems they have experience with. Yep, one, and it is the very best heating / cooling system known to man, and they will proclaim that from the highest mountains."

  Really Brian, you might want to dial it back a bit, your agenda is showing.


  Steve

[Deziner]

If I may, a Power Commander plugs in between your factory ECU and the factory harness. When you contact the fine people at Power Commander, you tell them the specifics of your particular motorcycle and they will send you a unit that is already pre-loaded with the appropriate map for your bike. You simply follow the installation instructions then enjoy the fruits of your labor.

You may want to check out Fuel Moto also. They have Power Commander build private label units for them. I don't know if they carry product for Kawasakis or not. It's worth investigating.

Over the years I have had great experiences with both Power Commander and Fuel Moto.
 

[B.D.F.]

No tuning required- most people just use a standard 'map'.

Very briefly, this is how a PC works: the ECU determines how much fuel should be injected for the next engine cycle (rotation), and that amount is determined by how long the fuel injector is held open. Like a faucet, the fuel injector flows a known amount of fuel , and the ECU chooses they fuel delivery by determining how long the fuel injector is held open, exactly the way you fill a glass with a faucet by controlling how long the faucet is opened.

Now once you change the system in a significant way, such as removing the 'flies, the ECU still injects the same amount of fuel which is probably not correct as there is more air in the engine (due to the 'flies restriction being removed). The PC (or any other external fuel mixture changing device such as a Juice Box or similar) uses its own map to alter the ECU's command. The map in the PC is based on throttle opening and engine RPM (this is called Alpha- N mixture control). So for example: you are running along at 3,500 RPM at 10% throttle and open the throttle to 20%. The ECU uses its own map to look up the proper amount of fuel to inject at these settings but they are now incorrect as the 'flies are gone and there is more air flowing into the engine than the ECU was originally designed to use...... let us just suppose the injector open time set is 50 milliseconds (0.050 seconds). But at the same moment, the PC also looks at its own internal map and sees that under these new conditions (no 'flies present), the ECU's injection period should be increased by 10% to 55 milliseconds. And so it goes across the entire throttle opening and engine speed (RPM) range.

When you purchase a PC, you will get at least one map with  it, and there are others available. So you just choose the map that matches the condition of your particular bike, and buy the PC with that map installed. Later, you can change the map in the PC at your choice by uploading a new map via a USB cable (they supply you with the software to do this on a laptop or PC and it is very easy to use), or you can open the map and change it to your liking; for example, my own personal map is 6% leaner than the stock 'flies- removed map until 40% throttle and 4,500 RPM to allow for more economical cruising all the way to highway speeds.

Finally, you can also purchase an add- on module to tune the PC based on the conditions your bike runs with in actual use, and this is the best way to tune anything IMO. It is fairly expensive but it offers the best tuning possible, and will compensate for altitude, humidity and everything else.

But again, the vast majority of people, including myself, just buy a PC with the correct map, install it and enjoy excellent performance.

Brian

I have a question Brian, a power commander work with what is commonly called "Maps" as I said, I have no experience with this type of device.  I know it essentially changes the fuel ratios and perhaps other things as well but are they plug and play or are adjustments required?  I have no idea as to how they really work and how difficult they may be to adjust (tune) to get the desired results.

[B.D.F.]

Well, certainly someone's agenda is showing but I would use the famous words that brought down Mr. Nixon- follow the money.

Brian makes no money on any engine tuning product for a C-14 (or any other vehicle at the present time).

I will let you answer for yourself what your financial interest may be.....  And I humbly suggest you dial it up a bit, your initial sales wave undercutting Guhl is either over or will be soon. :-) Say hello to Ron Popeil next time you see him at a meeting...... 

As to my experience, a LOT of it came from Daniel Bernoulli, some from Von Karman and of course, the ever present and powerful ideal gas law; all applied to I/C engines for 40 years now. And not just "tuning" as you seem to like to refer to but the entire system; my thesis was done on alternate valve systems, following along with Ricardo's work and again proving he was, in fact, correct starting back in 1927. And of course the cause and effect of tinkering (some call it wrenching) along over the years. But enough about me, this thread is really about a gentleman asking about "Removing Flies" as it says in the title though I do not begrudge you any opportunity to see if you can feed your own self- interests. The able, thinking people will catch on (many already have) and the fools..... well, they make easy fishing for a flashy lure.  For example, the astute person will research this and not find anywhere where I said my system is best while the sheeple will bleat along after, well, that shiny lure and the fact that some other fish has expressed interest.

And hey, who knows- someday someone might owe me some money and instead of simply paying them, I will get that person to buy one of your re-flashes; after all, that is how you buy my products, right? 

Brian

   So tell us Brian, about your experience? How many bike have you modified, besides your own? And how do you know so much about flashing and the changes involved when you have never built a flash for a c-14, or even seen the maps from a c-14?

  Perhaps your prophetic words below are the exact fact of how you came to your own opinion. You have no experience other than with your own bike, but you proclaim it best... from the highest mountains!

  "Not to worry Brent, lots of people (most I think) buy one thing and pronounce it both excellent and better than all the others. If you do not believe that, ask anyone, at random, what kind of heating / cooling system is best..... then ask them how many different heating / cooling systems they have experience with. Yep, one, and it is the very best heating / cooling system known to man, and they will proclaim that from the highest mountains."

  Really Brian, you might want to dial it back a bit, your agenda is showing.


  Steve

[MrPepsi]

Which sounds a lot like.... "I bought product X and it is the most wonderful of them all".     

Worse, I haven't done either, so I have no experience.
I've made my decision completely on the people of the forum and the products they provide.

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

As to my experience, a LOT of it came from Daniel Bernoulli, some from Von Karman and of course, the ever present and powerful ideal gas law; all applied to I/C engines for 40 years now. And not just "tuning" as you seem to like to refer to but the entire system; my thesis was done on alternate valve systems, following along with Ricardo's work and again proving he was, in fact, correct starting back in 1927. And of course the cause and effect of tinkering (some call it wrenching) along over the years. But enough about me, this thread is really about a gentleman asking about "Removing Flies" as it says in the title though I do not begrudge you any opportunity to see if you can feed your own self- interests. The able, thinking people will catch on (many already have) and the fools..... well, they make easy fishing for a flashy lure.  For example, the astute person will research this and not find anywhere where I said my system is best while the sheeple will bleat along after, well, that shiny lure and the fact that some other fish has expressed interest.

  now that's skill... in one small paragraph, you have held yourself out as an expert, and dismissed the opinions of all of the actual users of the product... amazing. Steve

[B.D.F.]

Nah, read it again but more slowly this time.

I'll just leave you with what Rem said a few months ago:

Bingo.

It is a bit unfortunate that ever since the whole C14 ECU flashing began, that the secondary fly removal somehow became obsolete or "insufficient", archaic, etc.

Originally, the secondary fly removal and the additional of the tried and true PCIII was THE mod, and not once, not ever, did anybody ever complain or comment that it didn't improve the bike immensely. The same cannot be said about the ECU flashes.

I've had an 08 C14 with flies removed, exhaust, and a PCIII with Fuel Moto tune, and I now have a 2010 c14 that I've tried every way possible...PC5 with autotune and flies out, custom autotuned ECU with flies in, etc, etc. I know exactly how they all work, and I've always maintained that my 08 with flies out was the best way the C14 worked, and I rode that bike coast to coast.

I'm not saying that a C14 with a flashed ECU/flies IN doesn't work well...because they do work well, it's just that IMHO, they do work better with a PC and flies out. That's my own view on the matter, and it can be taken with a grain of salt.

Rem

That gentleman spend quite a bit of time, money and effort working on his '10 C-14, and most of that work (maybe all of it) has been documented here. He found 'flies out' and a closed- loop tuning method to be the best method (power delivery, running characteristics), 'flie removal w/ PC next and the re- flash w/ flies left in to be the least effective. And I do not think he called himself an expert either but he was a learned man IMO.

Brian

  now that's skill... in one small paragraph, you have held yourself out as an expert, and dismissed the opinions of all of the actual users of the product... amazing. Steve

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

Nah, read it again but more slowly this time.

I'll just leave you with what Rem said a few months ago:

That gentleman spend quite a bit of time, money and effort working on his '10 C-14, and most of that work (maybe all of it) has been documented here. He found 'flies out' and a closed- loop tuning method to be the best method (power delivery, running characteristics), 'flie removal w/ PC next and the re- flash w/ flies left in to be the least effective. And I do not think he called himself an expert either but he was a learned man IMO.

Brian

  That's interesting, Rembrant is an intelligent guy, and actually was a guiding force getting me into the flashing business. But what I think must be remembered here is that different tuners will take different approaches. Guhl's flash and mine a pretty far apart... I have his maps so I can compare not just from a riding perspective, but from a data perspective. I don't know what Rem did when he was flashing his bike, how far he's expored, etc. I Think it bears consideration that I have, to date, built 75 different flashes during the development / prototyping phase. i'm still building, as I'm working on a flash for the full Area P system. I have piles of time involved. I datalog extensively. I seek out the smallest glitch that bothers me until it is gone. I can't say how far anyone else has gone with their flash development, but the time investment I have really reduces the $ / hr payoff.  Still, I do this because it's my own OCD personality to be represented by the best work I can achieve, and I take pride in that. Those who are riding on my flash all seem to appreciate the effort and attention to detail. Steve

[B.D.F.]

Agreed- Cory is bright, able and experienced- the trifecta. It shows in a lot of his posts such as this one:

I wouldn't necessarily say that it is the way to go, but it is definitely the easiest way to go. If you're looking for a little power boost down low in a plug-N-play mod, then the Guhl flash is the best choice. The Guhl reflash is a bit on the conservative side, and it should be, so for sport-touring use, it's great.

If you're looking more for ultimate HP numbers and max increase in HP and TQ, then flies out and PCV is definitely way to go. However, there's more work involved to install and set-up.

It doesn't really matter what year or generation the C14 is, there have been enough C14 owners that have pulled their flies and reported that the Ktrac system works as advertised, same as it did before the flies were removed. I know Fred Harmon reports differently, but his tests really don't show anything other than his own perception of what is happening.

Rem

  That's interesting, Rembrant is an intelligent guy, and actually was a guiding force getting me into the flashing business. But what I think must be remembered here is that different tuners will take different approaches. Guhl's flash and mine a pretty far apart... I have his maps so I can compare not just from a riding perspective, but from a data perspective. I don't know what Rem did when he was flashing his bike, how far he's expored, etc. I Think it bears consideration that I have, to date, built 75 different flashes during the development / prototyping phase. i'm still building, as I'm working on a flash for the full Area P system. I have piles of time involved. I datalog extensively. I seek out the smallest glitch that bothers me until it is gone. I can't say how far anyone else has gone with their flash development, but the time investment I have really reduces the $ / hr payoff.  Still, I do this because it's my own OCD personality to be represented by the best work I can achieve, and I take pride in that. Those who are riding on my flash all seem to appreciate the effort and attention to detail. Steve

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

   Actually, bringing up Rembrant's closed loop tuning , and talk of power commander maps brings up an opportunity for me to share some tuning insight for those wanting to use a pcv.

   A knowledgeable person like Cory will know that to get proper a/f readings for autotuning the WB02 sensor must be placed in front of the cats. Done this way, true a/f readings are achieved, and good fueling can be achieved through autotuning. The problem with the canned maps that are offered with power commander is that those maps are generally "map-share" maps. They are maps generated by end users, on a dyno, and then shared with other users. That's fine for most bikes, but the c-14 throws a big glitch in there, because we have catalytic converters. The issue is that the a/f ratio post cat is not reliable for tuning, because the cat has depleted the 02 in order to complete the redox process. Post cat readings will read rich, and if tuned to, will result in lean fueling.

   I recently had an occasion to remove a pcv and install a flash on an 09. We did baseline dyno runs, and there was a pretty substantial dip in the power around 5000 rpm with the pcv. After the flash, it's gone, the power is strong and linear. So I wondered what the differences were in the mapping. What I found was astonishing... the maps in that area were completely different. The PCV map was pulling out between 20-30% fuel, and my mapping, generated with a WB02 if front of the cats, was actually adding about 8% in the same range. Vastly different approaches. But that's what happens when the dyno operator shoves the sniffer up the tailpipe with no consideration for the cats.

    If you're going to use a pcv, at least get the autotune kit and install it pre-cat, and then you will have some accurate fueling information. just bolting on a PCV and using a canned maps might be easy, but it won't be right. This is one major difference between the ordinary guy wanting to "pump up" his bike's power and a seasoned guy like Cory, and as you can see the initial approach makes all the difference in the world to the final result. Steve