Just got my 2014 C-14! TPS question regarding my local dealer as well as others

[maxtog]

One point that has not been mentioned. Although the low battery warning is annoying, it is also false.

It is not really "false", it is just the nature of lithium batteries.  As the temperature drops, lithium battery performance plummets and voltage drops.  As the battery ages, those lows drop more and more.  So when it is reporting a low battery, it really is low at that time.

I have an 08 that I bought new in October 2007. My original batteries worked for 4 and a half years AFTER I got my first low battery warning. A true low battery warning should mean that battery failure is imminent not four years away!

This is normal.  You will get a warning, then as the air in the tires warms from friction, the battery warms, and the warning goes away.  Or, as the weather is warmer, it goes away.  The frequency at which the warning happens will increase and become more and more annoying.   I know that I want to know my pressures ASAP when I take off because if something is low, I want to be able to go right back home and fill the tires again.  So, depending on your tollerance/patience/expectations along with the weather in your area, you might be able to deal with it for years.

[lather]

For the reason I mentioned before in my opinion the warning is indeed false, at least for about 95% of the time (4 years or so)
If the unit is displaying pressure correctly for 4 years the battery has sufficient charge. The problem is with the programming causing the false warning to display. Your technical info on the Lithium battery is also incorrect. It is not the temperature of the tire that effects the battery but the electrical load that dissipates the pacification layer which is what causes the apparent low voltage. Although the ambient temperature does affect the speed at which the pacification layer dissipates.

Pardon my spelling error, that should be passivation not pacification

[jwh20]

One point that has not been mentioned. Although the low battery warning is annoying, it is also false. I have an 08 that I bought new in October 2007. My original batteries worked for 4 and a half years AFTER I got my first low battery warning. A true low battery warning should mean that battery failure is imminent not four years away! So one option is just to live with it, which I did until tutorials for replacing batteries were published. Once you get adept at the message reset technique you can clear your display easily even with heavy gloves on.

I have replaced one set of batteries so far.  Now one of the replacements is giving the low battery signal full time. I will replace it during my next tire change.

Lithium batteries like the ones used in the TPMS modules have good and bad characteristics.  The good is that they have very low self-discharge rates which means the energy they do have is useful in the device they power over a very long period.  They also have a very FLAT discharge curve in that they maintain a voltage out that is very stable until very near the end of their life.  This is also a bad thing since it's very difficult from an engineering viewpoint to detect exactly where the battery is low and where it's not.  You also must factor in temperature since the output voltage of these things does depend on temperature.

I've attached a chart showing the discharge curves for a Panasonic battery of the type used in the C14 TPMS units.  As you can see the lines are very flat out to the end and then the voltage drops off rapidly.  Note also the temperature dependency...

It would be really nice to have a better behaved battery but as with so many things in engineering, there are compromises involved...

[wcgreen]

UPDATE!!

Thanks guys!  So, dealer in T-town called and since the failure of the sensor occurred 3 weeks before warranty ended, they are going to replace the front tire sensor.  I checked, and I have the old sensors.  So, should I replace it with the new part that cannot have the batteries changed, or just deal and find a buddy here in the spring that will help me remove the tires and send the sensors off to Fred?  The same dealer here wanted $249.95 to put Pirelli Angel GT on the front of the bike... I can get the tire for $144 at Cycle gear and mounted for $25.  I told them to get the sensor as they called while I was in class... but reading here... I prob should call and just cancel, deal with the blinking warning, and just wait till I meed a bud that can help me remove and send off to Fred.  Thoughts?
Billy
www.wcgreen.net

[maxtog]

Your technical info on the Lithium battery is also incorrect. It is not the temperature of the tire that effects the battery but the electrical load that dissipates the pacification layer which is what causes the apparent low voltage.  Although the ambient temperature does affect the speed at which the pacification layer dissipates.

Regardless of exactly HOW the temperature affects the voltage, it does affect the voltage, which is what I said and it does explain why the sensor can apparently work fine in warm temps and not in cold temps.

Lithium batteries are almost impossible to know their life or capacity based on voltage because they hold their voltage very steady and drop so quickly (in contract to, for example, lead acid or alkaline, both of which have a very predictable curve).   So the only way to know life to estimate it, based on an actual log of watt-hours used vs. full-charged capacity.... and that is complicated (especially since with rechargeables, the total capacity goes down with each discharge, and such calculations are what is done on laptops and phones and such).  It is more complicated than can be reasonably accomplished in something like a TPMS.  Thus, they have only a tiny, tiny fraction of a volt to indicate if they might be nearing the end of life, and that fraction is  far less than the temperature variant... at least right when they start to show signs of failure.

Now, could they have moved the warning just a little bit more down the voltage range to extend the non-annoying service life of the sensor batteries?  Probably... but it would also give less warning time.  I can't say they could do a better job because not only I am not an electronics engineer, but I don't know their exact goals or what tolerances they have to deal with in the system.

The result CAN be annoying, no doubt.

[maxtog]

UPDATE!!

Thanks guys!  So, dealer in T-town called and since the failure of the sensor occurred 3 weeks before warranty ended, they are going to replace the front tire sensor.

Glad you called!  So now at least you have options.

I checked, and I have the old sensors.  So, should I replace it with the new part that cannot have the batteries changed, or just deal and find a buddy here in the spring that will help me remove the tires and send the sensors off to Fred?

Ah, the difficult question.  Can't help you there.  Mine were covered under warranty, and I believe I ended up with the new versions that are potted and can't be opened.  In my case, there is no chance in hell I am going to try and remove or mount tires, or even try to get to the sensor using the clamp method.  I just don't have the energy, experience, tools, patience, or luck.  So I opted for the warranty route.

[wcgreen]

I am leaning on having them replace the sensor as the new ones are SUPPOSE to last 5+ years and are made by the company that makes the GM 10+ year sensors.  However, wanting $250 to mount an Angel GT on the front is practically rape.  They need to charge me JUST for the tire and not for the removal and balancing as it is warranty work.  If they won't relent on that tire price, I will just have them replace the sensor and put my old tire on and go somewhere else when I need a tire in about 500-1000 miles.
Billy

[maxtog]

I am leaning on having them replace the sensor as the new ones are SUPPOSE to last 5+ years and are made by the company that makes the GM 10+ year sensors.

I have heard that too, but it is just speculation until another, oh 3+ years from now

However, wanting $250 to mount an Angel GT on the front is practically rape.

Agreed

They need to charge me JUST for the tire and not for the removal and balancing as it is warranty work.

Also agreed

If they won't relent on that tire price, I will just have them replace the sensor and put my old tire on and go somewhere else when I need a tire in about 500-1000 miles.

I can't blame you a bit on that.  Make sure to talk to the service manager (not just front desk or "help"), before giving up.

[lather]

You make some good points. My main point to WC is that the low batt warning does not mean he is likely going to lose TPS functionality any time soon and in I my view certainly does not warrant an expensive TPS replacement.
 

Regardless of exactly HOW the temperature affects the voltage, it does affect the voltage, which is what I said and it does explain why the sensor can apparently work fine in warm temps and not in cold temps.

Lithium batteries are almost impossible to know their life or capacity based on voltage because they hold their voltage very steady and drop so quickly (in contract to, for example, lead acid or alkaline, both of which have a very predictable curve).   So the only way to know life to estimate it, based on an actual log of watt-hours used vs. full-charged capacity.... and that is complicated (especially since with rechargeables, the total capacity goes down with each discharge, and such calculations are what is done on laptops and phones and such).  It is more complicated than can be reasonably accomplished in something like a TPMS.  Thus, they have only a tiny, tiny fraction of a volt to indicate if they might be nearing the end of life, and that fraction is  far less than the temperature variant... at least right when they start to show signs of failure.

Now, could they have moved the warning just a little bit more down the voltage range to extend the non-annoying service life of the sensor batteries?  Probably... but it would also give less warning time.  I can't say they could do a better job because not only I am not an electronics engineer, but I don't know their exact goals or what tolerances they have to deal with in the system.

The result CAN be annoying, no doubt.

[lather]

Here is some news on the TPS battery issue. I replaced my rear TPS battery on April 9, 2013. It was actually still working and the warning had actually almost stopped but it was well over the reported 5 year life expectancy and it was time for a new tire. I have been riding this week in sub 50 degree temperatures and no warnings. On the other hand, I replaced the front TPS battery on December 5, 2013. It started giving the warnings with the first 60 degree days this fall. Starting last week the warning behavior changed. Regardless of temperature (within a range pf 45 to 75 anyway) the warning does not come on within the first 500 yards like they have always done in the past, it comes on after a few miles and then STAYS  ON. That is, the red light stays on for the rest of the ride until I shut off the engine. This is definitely unusual behavior for my C14. Anybody else seen it?

[B.D.F.]

You can break the bead of the tire and push one sidewall out of the way enough to R&R the sensor with the wheel still on the bike. It takes a few small blocks of wood and two cabinet clamps, and could be done in a parking lot in a pinch. There is a thread around here somewhere on how to do it with photos.

By the way, just want to mention that we really should not be soldering to batteries; instead, buy the tabbed versions and solder to the tabs. The nylon seals inside the battery will not take the heat of even low temperature soldering, not to mention the risk of getting lithium hot.

Brian

I am leaning on having them replace the sensor as the new ones are SUPPOSE to last 5+ years and are made by the company that makes the GM 10+ year sensors.  However, wanting $250 to mount an Angel GT on the front is practically rape.  They need to charge me JUST for the tire and not for the removal and balancing as it is warranty work.  If they won't relent on that tire price, I will just have them replace the sensor and put my old tire on and go somewhere else when I need a tire in about 500-1000 miles.
Billy

[maxtog]

By the way, just want to mention that we really should not be soldering to batteries; instead, buy the tabbed versions and solder to the tabs. The nylon seals inside the battery will not take the heat of even low temperature soldering, not to mention the risk of getting lithium hot.

Lithium batteries have a bad habit of exploding when really hot   (Hey, I know some people like that, too!)

[gPink]

Lithium batteries have a bad habit of exploding when really hot   (Hey, I know some people like that, too!)

Did you see the pics of the guy whose e-cig blew up in his face? 

[wcgreen]

Update... Kawasaki gonna replace the sensor... waiting for that part... was gonna go ahead and get a new tire... they want $250 for a Pirelli Angel GT front.  Called and said the tire removal is standard required for Kawa to change sensor, so what is tire price for just tire and not mounting?  They said mounting free.. tire is $250.  Bullcrap on that.  I can get that tire for $121 online.. So, gotta find another dealer after this... closest is 40 min away.. closest dealer with GREAT reputation is 2 hrs away... so this is not gonna be good seeing as if I need service I can wait in waiting room as I only have the bike, and if I need a ride from a roomate or another in my grad class.. it needs to be a local dealer.. but raping me on a tire?  I won't be dealing with them after this sensor change.
Billy

[maxtog]

Were you talking to the service manager?  Did you show him the price printout online for the tire?  I know I am willing to pay more for a local tire, but not more than DOUBLE (200%+) the price (make sure you include shipping).  15%- no prob.  20% probably.  25% perhaps, but that is starting to push it.

[wcgreen]

I spoke to the parts manager... said they do free mounting and balancing... so the price of $250 for an Angel GT 120/70/17 was the tire price with free mounting.. so the Kawasaki required service of removing the tire for the sensor would have no effect on the price of the tire.  It's $250 for the tire.  They refuse to mount a tire you don't buy from them.  The dealer 40 min away said $139 for the same tire and $50 to mount, I think.  Cycle Gear an hour away, has that tire on sale for $144 and $25 mounting.  Robbery by the local dealership on that tire.  No way I will buy any tires from them.

[RBX QB]

...  Cycle Gear an hour away, has that tire on sale for $144 and $25 mounting.  ...

I think I recall a previous thread/experience at Cycle Gear about damage to a tire pressure sensor. If you take it there, be sure to warn them about the sensor to try to minimize any risk of it getting damaged. No guarantees, but worth warning them about. I would probably have the same warning for any local shop that isn't in the Kawi service network.

[maxtog]

I spoke to the parts manager... said they do free mounting and balancing... so the price of $250 for an Angel GT 120/70/17 was the tire price with free mounting.. so the Kawasaki required service of removing the tire for the sensor would have no effect on the price of the tire.  It's $250 for the tire.  They refuse to mount a tire you don't buy from them.  The dealer 40 min away said $139 for the same tire and $50 to mount, I think.  Cycle Gear an hour away, has that tire on sale for $144 and $25 mounting.  Robbery by the local dealership on that tire.  No way I will buy any tires from them.

A point of contention for me- the word "free" is GROSSLY overused.  It is not free, it is "included in the price at no extra charge".   Something can't be "free" if there is a requirement to buy something.  Period.  That is like me saying, buy a house from me FOR FREE!!!  You just have to pay $200,000 for the mailbox first.   Or "Get this cellphone free with service contract" (it is not free, you are paying for it in the service contract).  "Buy 1 get one free" is not free either- it is either "buy one and get one at no additional charge" OR "buy two for the price of one."  I don't know why the FTC doesn't crack down on this kind of thing.  OK, I got that rant out of my system, so back on topic....

Your last recourse is to talk to the general manager or owner.  It is worth a shot.  There is a chance that once confronted with logic he/she will cut you a reasonable deal.  Just be nice and explain you want to start a relationship with them that can last for years...  Tell him/her you understand they need to make money, and that they don't need to be paid twice for the mounting/unmounting to make good money on this deal.  Also explain that other dealers (like mine here, and others who have posted similarly) gladly listened to such logic and were happy to make accommodations.

Every now and then, ya get lucky with someone who really understands and cares about customer service.

[gPink]

Get the new tire put on first.

[maxtog]

Get the new tire put on first.

By someone else?  Or the dealer?  If by the dealer, it would not help him in this situation (nor would it really penalize the dealer).  If by someone else, it doubles the complexity, time, and risk of damage.  The dealer is just being unreasonable.