ABS and Linked Brakes

[tomp]

Mmm.  ABS is not linked.  The brakes are linked.  The ABS doesn't activate until wheel lock up is detected.

Anyone if ABS front and rear brakes are actually linked, or independent when activated. With BMW's and some others, you can turn off ABS as a single system, but not front or rear separately.  Just wondering, but I did understand what gPink was wanting, in unlinking the front/ rear braking system...  tp

[gPink]

Don't have abs or linked brakes. Just a comment on the internet protest post back up the page.

[tomp]

Don't have abs or linked brakes. Just a comment on the internet protest post back up the page.

Yep, mine doesn't either, but am still curious about whether the ABS system is F/R linked or independent...

[gPink]

I assumed the linking and ABS was tied together. I know the 08/09 abs was not linked. I wonder if the abs ecu part #s are different.

[MrPepsi]

Yep, mine doesn't either, but am still curious about whether the ABS system is F/R linked or independent...

I believe it said it is still linked, but toned down a bit because of complaints.

[Rembrant]

I assumed the linking and ABS was tied together.

You assumed correct. The ABS module is where the linking takes place.

I know the 08/09 abs was not linked. I wonder if the abs ecu part #s are different.

Yes, different. The 2010-up bikes have extra ports and lines due to the linked portion of the ABS module.

I can't remember all of the specifics, but I did look into all of way back when I wanted to disable my linked brakes. My memory is gettin' fuzzy now.

Rem

[MrPepsi]

Someone on here did unlink their brakes I thought.

[tomp]

I've read of some BMW owners doing the same procedure, especially on the 1150 RT with the wizzy brake system.  Linked and servo assisted, they actually work too well.  Put you over the windshield.  I know mine will, if using more than one finger on the lever, or step on the rear brake, forgetting it is linked. 

[Stephen.G.Fiddes]

Someone on here did unlink their brakes I thought.

it involves losing the ABS function on your rear brake.  Basically run a line straight from the MC to the Caliper, and plug a couple other lines.  That's the only way we've found thus far. 

The Brake module is computer controlled and brakes are UNLINKED below 12 MPH, so if we can get the brake module to constantly think its under 12 MPH, winner winner chicken dinner.

[twowheeladdict]

You assumed correct. The ABS module is where the linking takes place.

Yes, different. The 2010-up bikes have extra ports and lines due to the linked portion of the ABS module.

I can't remember all of the specifics, but I did look into all of way back when I wanted to disable my linked brakes. My memory is gettin' fuzzy now.

Rem

IMO you guys are confusing liked brakes and ABS.  They are two different functions in the braking system. 

The linked brakes means that when I apply only front brake I get some rear brake.  Not as much as if I apply both.
 When I apply rear brake I get some front brake, but not as much as when applying both.

The ABS part of the braking system consists of sensors on each wheel that determine that a wheel has locked up.
When that occurs the braking powers to that wheel is reduced. 
I would sure hope the the designers were not stupid enough to reduce braking at both wheels when only one locks up. 

[Rembrant]

IMO you guys are confusing liked brakes and ABS.  They are two different functions in the braking system. 

The linked brakes means that when I apply only front brake I get some rear brake.  Not as much as if I apply both.
 When I apply rear brake I get some front brake, but not as much as when applying both.

The ABS part of the braking system consists of sensors on each wheel that determine that a wheel has locked up.
When that occurs the braking powers to that wheel is reduced. 
I would sure hope the the designers were not stupid enough to reduce braking at both wheels when only one locks up. 

Nope, I'm not confusing anything. What I'm saying is, the ABS module and the linked brake mechanism are one in the same device on the C14...they are combined, controlled, and powered from one place under your seat/tank.

The ABS is combined....same as in your car. Your car has linked brakes already;). What you have is a servo operated valve that releases and re-applies pressure as per braking requirements...to keep the wheels from locking up. If you guys can show me proof that the C14 utilizes independent front and rear wheel ABS, then I'm all ears. I'm not even sure why you'd want independent ABS, but again, I'm open to new ideas if anybody wants to explain them to me;).

Rem

[B.D.F.]

Yep, what Cory said.

Also, I believe the C-14 is still the only bike that has linked brakes that un-link 'on the fly', and that is a totally digitally controlled thing as opposed to pure hydraulics. I believe the C-14 linked brakes unlink at 12 MPH (or close to that) so that the rear brake can be used on soft ground without engaging the front (both brakes are unlinked of course, but who ever wanted to use the front brake on beach sand?). At 12 MPH they link and stay that way until the vehicle is again below that speed. So there is a baby ECU on board the ABS units on the later bikes.

It <may> be possible to swap the ABS pump on a Gen. 2 C-14 for a Gen. 1 pump, still have ABS but no longer have linked brakes. It would take re- plumbing of the front brakes at the very least. And I am not sure what else may or may not need to be modified but it should be possible.

Brian

Nope, I'm not confusing anything. What I'm saying is, the ABS module and the linked brake mechanism are one in the same device on the C14...they are combined, controlled, and powered from one place under your seat/tank.

The ABS is combined....same as in your car. Your car has linked brakes already;). What you have is a servo operated valve that releases and re-applies pressure as per braking requirements...to keep the wheels from locking up. If you guys can show me proof that the C14 utilizes independent front and rear wheel ABS, then I'm all ears. I'm not even sure why you'd want independent ABS, but again, I'm open to new ideas if anybody wants to explain them to me;).

Rem

[twowheeladdict]

Nope, I'm not confusing anything. What I'm saying is, the ABS module and the linked brake mechanism are one in the same device on the C14...they are combined, controlled, and powered from one place under your seat/tank.

The ABS is combined....same as in your car. Your car has linked brakes already;). What you have is a servo operated valve that releases and re-applies pressure as per braking requirements...to keep the wheels from locking up. If you guys can show me proof that the C14 utilizes independent front and rear wheel ABS, then I'm all ears. I'm not even sure why you'd want independent ABS, but again, I'm open to new ideas if anybody wants to explain them to me;).

Rem

They are controlled from the same module but that doesn't mean that the antilock brake algorithms are the same as the linked brake algorithms.  The bike has a front brake reservoir and a rear brake reservoir.  The ABS can definitely work independent, because the wheels can lock up independently.

When you are manually braking the bike and the rear locks up, you are not going to let go of both brakes.  You are going to modulate the rear brake and continue pressure on the front brake.

But, what it sounds like is that we are both making assumptions.  You are assuming linked brakes means linked Antilock Braking System.  I am assuming that linked brakes and Antilock Braking System are two different features of the Brakes on the Concours.

[twowheeladdict]

Here is a Kawasaki video explaining ABS.  It shows how the control unit senses wheel lockup at each wheel and modulates the braking at that wheel.

Kawasaki Motorcycles: Anti-Lock Brake Systems (ABS)


Here is an explanation of K-ACT, but not the ABS function (or what happens when wheel lockup is sensed)

Kawasaki K-ACT

[twowheeladdict]

Here is a Kawasaki video explaining ABS.  It shows how the control unit senses wheel lockup at each wheel and modulates the braking at that wheel.

Kawasaki Motorcycles: Anti-Lock Brake Systems (ABS)


Here is an explanation of K-ACT, but not the ABS function (or what happens when wheel lockup is sensed)

Kawasaki K-ACT

I have found verbiage that states that K-ACT complements the standard ABS.

So, since the point is to provide optimum braking force without locking the wheels up, it makes sense that if the system senses wheel lock in only the front wheel, it would only modulate the front brakes to maintain maximum braking force.

[Rembrant]

They are controlled from the same module but that doesn't mean that the antilock brake algorithms are the same as the linked brake algorithms.  The bike has a front brake reservoir and a rear brake reservoir.  The ABS can definitely work independent, because the wheels can lock up independently.

When you are manually braking the bike and the rear locks up, you are not going to let go of both brakes.  You are going to modulate the rear brake and continue pressure on the front brake.

But, what it sounds like is that we are both making assumptions.  You are assuming linked brakes means linked Antilock Braking System.  I am assuming that linked brakes and Antilock Braking System are two different features of the Brakes on the Concours.

Yup...we are both making assumptions...lol. I just know that the brakes are linked and I've never heard anything about them becoming unlinked during an ABS 'incident' until now. But that's totally fine...I'm always open to learning new things.
I've done some pretty aggressive braking on my C14, and while I've never locked a wheel up, I can certainly feel the linking activity taking place (and the ABS). It never occurred to me that the ABS would work independently between the front and rear on a 2nd gen C14.
I don't know how the ABS/Linked module could modulate the pressure independently when the pressures are already linked and constantly affecting each other. If the ABS module is unlinking the brakes during an ABS interaction, and then doing separate calculations on both front and rear wheel speeds, then the ABS module is far more complex a device than I thought it was.

I was going to buy a used ABS module a while back and take it apart in an effort to better understand how it worked and to find a way to unlink my brakes electrically, but the linking never annoyed me enough to spend the money to do it...lol.

Rem

[tomp]

Just read an article on the BMW ABS system, and it was noted that applying the front brake lever in an emergency situation activates both front and rear ABS simultaneously.  Didn't say what applying only the rear to lock up did.  Would go try my RT tomorrow to find out, but suppose to rain all day.   

[VirginiaJim]

I can do that on my 08 at half the price although it's somewhat manual in nature.

[Rembrant]

I have found verbiage that states that K-ACT complements the standard ABS.

So, since the point is to provide optimum braking force without locking the wheels up, it makes sense that if the system senses wheel lock in only the front wheel, it would only modulate the front brakes to maintain maximum braking force.

Hehe...yes, you are absolutely correct...but in the video and verbiage, the independent front and rear ABS activity pointed out are on the models that do not have linked brakes, like the ZX10R. When the video gets to the Concours-14, it says that the K-Act ABS module synchronizes all front and rear braking activity...it doesn't mention anything about the ABS acting independently on the front and rear wheels.

On models that have completely separate front and rear brakes, then yes, absolutely, the ABS will work independently.

Don't worry, I'm not saying that you're wrong...since I obviously don't have any evidence to the contrary. The 08-09 C14 models with ABS would have independent ABS actions for sure. If the 2nd gen linked brake models are doing this, then they would definitely have to unlink the brakes at that time, and I've never heard of that before today, that's all;).

Rem

[Rembrant]

Just read an article on the BMW ABS system, and it was noted that applying the front brake lever in an emergency situation activates both front and rear ABS simultaneously.

Well, if that bike has a linked braking system, then that would make sense to me. I don't know poop about BMW's though, so I can't comment really...other than I understand the concept.

Rem