Author Topic: Secondary Butterflies  (Read 79755 times)

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Secondary Bufferfly Removal/Disable
« Reply #80 on: April 24, 2015, 07:27:56 AM »
   I have read various threads on fly removal, and I have to say I'm surprised at the myopic take on this from the various engineer types.

  One thing constantly bantered about is the issue of air speed, comparisons with the zx14, what Kawasaki had in mind, etc etc.

  Nobody has, to my reading, even raised the issue of cam timing, and more to the point, variable valve timing. Maybe because this is even voodoo to engineers not skilled with the effects of cam timing.

   I could make various foolish comparisons like "flow from a garden hose and flow from a fire engine hose" but that's not realistic tuning. Nothing varies that much.

   Instead, lets look at reality... the effects of cam overlap at lower engine rpms, in this case appx 5000 rpm and down. 

   The c-14 has shorter duration cams than the zx14, which mandates less overlap given consistent lobe centerlines between the two engines. VVT at low rpm is capable of removing, by my measurement, 20* of cam overlap at low rpm. This has a HUGE effect on intake dynamics. Passive egr / reversion is lessened or non existent. Higher intake air speed encountering an early closing intake valve helps build pressure in the intake track. Trapping that intake charge with computer controlled secondaries could potentially help create a stronger pressure wave upon the next intake stroke.

   The zx14 has no vvt, and longer intake and exhaust cam timing. Much greater overlap, which any tuner knows is detrimental to low rpm power due to passive egr / reversion issues. With larger throttle bodies, it would be easy to see intake velocity could not overcome reversion effects, and volumetric efficiency would drop at lower engine rpms. In this case I think secondaries are the only reasonable response to gaining the most power potential at lower rpms.

   Of course, the c-14 TB's are smaller than the zx's. Given this, and the velocity this alone would help create, the need for secondaries in the c-14 is lessened as compared to the zx14.

  Couple that with the effects of shorter cam timing / vvt / decreased or non existent overlap, I could see a point where the c-14 could actually gain power by a very carefully tuned secondary fly, opening as much as possible to create ultimate volumetric efficiency but no more than that.

   IMO, since there obviously power to be made by removing flies or reflashing the ecm,  I think the obvious correct tuning procedure would be to have the flies controlled by the ECM, but with optimized opening to create the best cylinder filling at lower rpms. With this in mind, I feel this negates the argument that reflashes are only so someone can have "something to sell". Unless those proposing fly removal can support it's superiority over a proper secondary tune from the ECM, they are only GUESSING.

  Think about it.

 steve

   

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Secondary Butterflies
« Reply #81 on: April 24, 2015, 08:25:16 AM »
    I have read various threads on fly removal, and I have to say I'm surprised at the myopic take on this from the various engineer types.

  One thing constantly bantered about is the issue of air speed, comparisons with the zx14, what Kawasaki had in mind, etc etc.

  Nobody has, to my reading, even raised the issue of cam timing, and more to the point, variable valve timing. Maybe because this is even voodoo to engineers not skilled with the effects of cam timing.

   I could make various foolish comparisons like "flow from a garden hose and flow from a fire engine hose" but that's not realistic tuning. Nothing varies that much.

   Instead, lets look at reality... the effects of cam overlap at lower engine rpms, in this case appx 5000 rpm and down.

   The c-14 has shorter duration cams than the zx14, which mandates less overlap given consistent lobe centerlines between the two engines. VVT at low rpm is capable of removing, by my measurement, 20* of cam overlap at low rpm. This has a HUGE effect on intake dynamics. Passive egr / reversion is lessened or non existent. Higher intake air speed encountering an early closing intake valve helps build pressure in the intake track. Trapping that intake charge with computer controlled secondaries could potentially help create a stronger pressure wave upon the next intake stroke.

   The zx14 has no vvt, and longer intake and exhaust cam timing. Much greater overlap, which any tuner knows is detrimental to low rpm power due to passive egr / reversion issues. With larger throttle bodies, it would be easy to see intake velocity could not overcome reversion effects, and volumetric efficiency would drop at lower engine rpms. In this case I think secondaries are the only reasonable response to gaining the most power potential at lower rpms.

   Of course, the c-14 TB's are smaller than the zx's. Given this, and the velocity this alone would help create, the need for secondaries in the c-14 is lessened as compared to the zx14.

  Couple that with the effects of shorter cam timing / vvt / decreased or non existent overlap, I could see a point where the c-14 could actually gain power by a very carefully tuned secondary fly, opening as much as possible to create ultimate volumetric efficiency but no more than that.

   IMO, since there obviously power to be made by removing flies or reflashing the ecm,  I think the obvious correct tuning procedure would be to have the flies controlled by the ECM, but with optimized opening to create the best cylinder filling at lower rpms. With this in mind, I feel this negates the argument that reflashes are only so someone can have "something to sell". Unless those proposing fly removal can support it's superiority over a proper secondary tune from the ECM, they are only GUESSING.

  Think about it.

 steve

Offline The Pope

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Re: Secondary Butterflies
« Reply #82 on: April 24, 2015, 11:13:47 AM »
I think the obvious correct tuning procedure would be to have the flies controlled by the ECM, but with optimized opening to create the best cylinder filling at lower rpms.
I agree, but acknowledge that Steve is way more knowledgeable on this subject than I.  ;D
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Offline gPink

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Re: Secondary Butterflies
« Reply #83 on: April 24, 2015, 11:27:03 AM »
How can having an obstruction in the intake tract increase air flow. It seems counter-intuitive.

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Secondary Butterflies
« Reply #84 on: April 24, 2015, 11:39:44 AM »
How can having an obstruction in the intake tract increase air flow. It seems counter-intuitive.

  I touched on that in my original post " Trapping that intake charge with computer controlled secondaries could potentially help create a stronger pressure wave upon the next intake stroke"

  Alot of things about engine tuning seem counter intuitive. Look at my 2 minute mod jet kit; counterintuitive, blocking the intake track... and it works.

  The hardest part about tuning is to know something doesn't seem to make sense on the surface, but you explore it anyway. Steve

Offline gPink

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Re: Secondary Butterflies
« Reply #85 on: April 24, 2015, 11:57:46 AM »
Steve, not trying to be contrary...just trying to learn... How could the butterflies trap an intake charge when they are basically open past a defined throttle position and rpm?

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Secondary Butterflies
« Reply #86 on: April 24, 2015, 12:08:37 PM »
How can having an obstruction in the intake tract increase air flow. It seems counter-intuitive.

Would it increase velocity?
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Offline Deziner

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Re: Secondary Butterflies
« Reply #87 on: April 24, 2015, 12:11:09 PM »
Would it increase velocity?

EXACTLY! Higher velocity is the key.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Secondary Butterflies
« Reply #88 on: April 24, 2015, 12:40:05 PM »
EXACTLY! Higher velocity is the key.

to a point - the concept of creating torque is to fill the cylinder as much as possible, and retain as much as possible for compression. If the restriction reduces cylinder filling, it reduces power. If the velocity is lower because available volume is greater, it may also result in stalled air movement, less cylinder filling, and a reduction of power. Think of the bog associated with large bore carburetors. the effect of this is lessened with EFI, but it still won't help when encountering reversion pulses. steve


Offline bbhzx12

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Re: Secondary Butterflies
« Reply #89 on: April 24, 2015, 01:01:14 PM »
Would it increase velocity?
What is the air speed velocity of an un-ladden butterfly?

Offline RBX QB

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Re: Secondary Butterflies
« Reply #90 on: April 24, 2015, 01:10:40 PM »
There is WAY too much science in this thread.
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Offline Gigantor

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Re: Secondary Butterflies
« Reply #91 on: April 24, 2015, 01:22:02 PM »
At least you guys can reinstall the secondaries for more power and oem reliability!


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Offline gPink

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Re: Secondary Butterflies
« Reply #92 on: April 24, 2015, 01:34:42 PM »
Then I'd have to spend more money on reflashing the ecu.  ::) It never ends does it?

Offline Rhino

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Re: Secondary Butterflies
« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2015, 02:30:10 PM »
What is the air speed velocity of an un-ladden butterfly?

I don't know that...  aaahhhhhhhh....

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Secondary Butterflies
« Reply #94 on: April 24, 2015, 03:45:35 PM »
Steve, not trying to be contrary...just trying to learn... How could the butterflies trap an intake charge when they are basically open past a defined throttle position and rpm?

They're not open any more than they need to be, given rpm and throttle position. The throttle could be wot and the secondary is only open 1/4 of the way, if rpm and gear / load demand that. The effect is to overide the inputs from the operator, and keep the intake velocity higher than the operator would have been able to manage. 

  i think this could be managed with a MAP sensors, one port side of the throttle, and one on the airbox side, or better yet measuring venturii negative pressure. Steve

Offline Conniesaki

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Re: Secondary Butterflies
« Reply #95 on: April 24, 2015, 03:46:30 PM »
Putting your thumb over the end of your garden hose makes the water spray farther but in a narrower stream.

This my contribution.

Oh, wait, one more: It is 'farther', not 'further', in my usage above.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Secondary Butterflies
« Reply #96 on: April 24, 2015, 04:11:25 PM »
Exactly correct- the water moves faster but there is less of it. If you are interested in filling a container quickly, putting your thumb over the end of the hose is the wrong approach and will slow down the water delivery. Exactly the same way closing throttle plates will may well increase fluid (and gas IS a fluid) flow velocity at the expense of volume flow, and will fill the bucket (cylinder) more slowly.

Excellent analogy.

Brian

Putting your thumb over the end of your garden hose makes the water spray farther but in a narrower stream.

This my contribution.

Oh, wait, one more: It is 'farther', not 'further', in my usage above.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Secondary Butterflies
« Reply #97 on: April 24, 2015, 04:15:24 PM »
Yes, and that thought is further backed up by those who claim the fluid (air) velocity increases.... because an increase in velocity must result in a decrease in volume per unit time.

But be careful as we do not want to clutter up this issue with a lot of pertinent facts. Better to insult people, beat one's chest and lay down the law.

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Brian

How can having an obstruction in the intake tract increase air flow. It seems counter-intuitive.
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Secondary Butterflies
« Reply #98 on: April 24, 2015, 05:16:54 PM »
yes, why clutter the conversation with realities, like the effects of cam timing. Tsk Tsk, silly me.  :o

  The American way... bigger is better.  lets have bigger cams, bigger throttle bodies, no flies... and go slower in the lower rpms. Yeah, that's it.

  These over simplified analogies are foolish, since a thumb and a garden hose has nothing to do with effectively filling a cylinder. Those who understand tuning know this... those that don't - don't.

  Maybe someone will explain egr effect and reversion. Let's see how reversion affects the garden hose filling the container. Oh, it' doesn't ... sorry. That's reserved for an actual cylinder dealing with the opening and closing points from the cams. I agree, we wouldn't want to mess up this conversation with facts.

  Steve

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Secondary Butterflies
« Reply #99 on: April 24, 2015, 05:43:28 PM »
 :rotflmao: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

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