Secondary Butterflies

[B.D.F.]

Agreed but this forum is generally quite free from such.... behavior. The 'other' forum seems to attract "those people" and hang onto them although, of course, that is a generality and this particular case is an exception.

Then again, this forum does have a blocking function which is handy- you will not even see the posts made by anyone you choose to block.

"Never wrestle with a pig; you both get dirty, but the pig likes it."
-Unknown         

Brian

I like motorcycles. I like to talk to people who like motorcycles. I like to listen to and learn things from people who I believe know more about motorcycles than I do. People who know more than me consists of a very big group of people. I like hearing opposing ideas, theories and opinions. It contributes to my knowledge base.

What I don't like is when egos get in the way. It is detrimental to the discussion and diminishes all involved. I find it takes the fun out of the very reason I like these discussions.

So to all...carry on in the way you believe best.

Gary

[tomp]

An interesting thread.  Personally I like the ease and smoothness of the stock set up, ECM, flies, etc, as so much of my riding is done in rather heavy traffic in urban locations, ie, commuting.  I can easily pull away from any traffic and still shift at 4K, throughout the gears.  If I need on-ramp acceleration, up shifting a thou or two higher gets me into or ahead of traffic quickly and smoothly.  Truly believe that KHI designed the C14 more for riders like me, and the ZX14(R) for those that want excitement at a quicker throttle twist.  Like has been mentioned so often, the C14 will never be a ZX, no matter what you do to it. 

My old ZZR1200 was much more radical than the 14 at legal speeds, and to me much less fun around town, or even steady highway riding.   I will happily ride the 14 as is, and enjoy the learning and fun of threads like this. Thanks all for sharing... tomp

[Deziner]

I have a question.  I may be simply not be understanding what I think I understand.  Isn't a CV carburetor basically doing the same thing as the secondary flies? As far as I can tell, CV (Constant Velocity) carbs restrict airflow to keep the velocity of the incoming air constant. Many bike builders prefer "re-worked" CV carbs to the High Performance more simple design. Their claim is better overall runability. Or am I comparing apples to oranges?

[tomp]

I was always led to believe that CV carbs worked like pumper carbs, in that they gave an initial fuel boost upon throttle opening, since the slide open momentarily later than the initial addition of fuel, enriching the initial fuel intake.  Isn't this being done by mapping in FI systems?  Remember, I'm old skool and really don't understand much about FI and maps, but did enjoy playing with jets and needle settings.  tp

[Deziner]

The slide opens independently of the throttle plate which is down stream of the slide. The slide opens according to the volume of air demanded by the engine. That's how it was explained to me. What do I know?

The air flowing in also slams to a stop when the intake valve closes and bounces back at the speed of sound. While I'm reading the explanation,  I can pretty much follow along. I don't know enough about it to explain it though. A Google search for "intake runner tuning" or size, or length, etc. and there is a wealth of information available.

I have so much CRAP floating around in my brain that, at times, it's difficult to add more. Add my advancing years to the mix and it gets crazy in there. Especially with technical stuff I don't choose to, or have to, use every day.

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

  It's funny how a thread goes... throw a few clues out there, and open minded guys get to really thinking about it and coming up with some brilliant ideas!

 Yes Deziner, there is a strong comparison to be made betwen cv carb operation and secondary butterflies. in fact, it's my experience with CV's that has me in this mindset. I developed a system of changing the slide action on the fly with CV's 26 years ago. I currently have it operating on Shoodaben. the simple fact is that I can completely overide my own throttle inputs based on how quickly the diaphrams are able to lift. I can do this for performance of fuel economy. 

  With EFI, I think a reasonable argument could be made that secondary butterflies with appropriate mapping could  be considered a primary fly by wire system, in which case the primary throttles are redundant. In my present thoughts, I'm not thinking of having the secondaries overide the primaries, but rather to have them enhance the primaries.

  Here would be an example - you're in a higher gear at to low of an rpm for good acceleration, yet failing to do a couple downshifts you twist the throttle open and call for power. since you wanted good accelleration, you naturally opened the throttle to much (more than the engine could use at that rpm / load) but the secondary trimmed that back to an appropriate point that kept intake airflow moving primarily toward the valve and damped reversion pulses that are actually creating  pulses that alternate between flowing to and away from the cylinder.

   While I have idea's, I don't have the electronics background to support making this happen. i do see a simple method that requires a little modification to the system, but still it's not a perfect answer. All I'm doing here is exploring "what if's" ... I am not proposing that there is only one solution to the butterfly. I do think it's clear that I don't agree with those that  have determined the only solution is "the final solution". Steve

[just gone]

Is this better?

       Much!

[elp_jc]

How can having an obstruction in the intake tract increase air flow. It seems counter-intuitive.

There's no 'obstruction' unless you're at WOT. And then, the question becomes how much. Is it really worth removing them? At least on my 2015 bike, my answer is NO. The system works flawlessly, and most of us are below WOT over 99% of the time we ride the bike. Most riders would gain much more from professional rider training, than trying to get a few more HP out of the engine IMO. I like fast cars and bikes, but I'm of the mind set that if you want speed, buy a sport-bike, not a sport-tourer. But to each his own, of course . I buy the right vehicle, and only do cosmetic stuff. Mechanically I only do catback stuff if at all, so no messing with the ECU or anything else. And nowadays, you don't need to, like when FI started, with serious rideability issues. And even if I wanted to modify my vehicles, I'd never do it during warranty, especially the ECU; it's an automatic warranty denial if push comes to shove (and a federal offense to tamper with it, so no jury would side with you). Just my opinion . Have a good one folks.

[gPink]

"There's no 'obstruction' unless you're at WOT."

Please explain.

[jimmymac]

"There's no 'obstruction' unless you're at WOT."

Please explain.

He also doesn't believe my ZX14R weighs about 150 pounds less and about 45 HP more than a Connie. He'll call you names even.

[tomp]

YOUR ZX14 may weigh 150 less than a C14, but according to motorcycle specifications site, the R's wet weight is 584.3 lbs.  A Gen I w/o abs and tc weighs 670 lbs wet.  A Gen II with abs and tc weighs 690 wet.  Unless you have stripped 50 or more LB's off your bike, that 150 difference seems a little steep. 

Max HP is listed with ram air, 200 for the R, 161 for the C14.  Close to the 45.  Have heard the R dyno at 195HP and the C at 144, much more than the 45, but dynos vary too much to accept most of what we have as evidence to outputs.

http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/   great site for lots of info...tp

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

 Iassume he means there's no obstruction if he's thinking the secondaries are open the same or more than the throttle at all but WOT, but that's not the case. the fact that either a reflash or fly removal yields more power than the stock setup clearly points out that the stock flies are an obstruction at other than wot.

 I've said for years you can tell what a person is comfortable with when you look at thier bike. If he's comfy with electronics, it has gps, xm radio, etc. . Comfy with electrical... more lights. Uncomfy with anything - stock.  I'm comfy with engine and drivetrain mods.  Steve

[maxtog]

There's no 'obstruction' unless you're at WOT. And then, the question becomes how much. Is it really worth removing them? At least on my 2015 bike, my answer is NO. The system works flawlessly, and most of us are below WOT over 99% of the time we ride the bike.

Actually, it is for times you are going WOT when I believe it doesn't matters much less if the flies are there are not, since they are probably mostly wide open (in the mid and higher RPM's, which is where you would want to keep the bike during extreme acceleration).  For the other 99% of the time of normal riding, they are mostly likely acting as an obstruction... by design (and for a variety of reasons mention prior).  Removing or "flashing away" the flies *ARE* extremely helpful for that 99%... it is when you will most notice and appreciate the change and where we spend most of our non-static time riding.  No question about that, since I know how the bike feels before and after (and I rode the bike for years unflashed).

Based on my understanding of the way it works: Removing or "flashing" the flies will not affect top speed.  It will not yield a higher peak horsepower.  It will not really help WOT acceleration.  It will not net much in 1/4 mile times.  But for normal and spirited driving, it is amazing and one of the best mods you can do to the C14.  It brings the bike alive in the low and midrange, makes it far more responsive, and just overall more pleasing to drive (at the expense of being louder).

[edit:  added qualifiers and to make it clear this is only my understanding]

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

Maxtog, are you sure about that? are you sure that if the throttle is WOT the flies are also? based on what i've seen, I would strongly disagree. Steve

[maxtog]

Maxtog, are you sure about that? are you sure that if the throttle is WOT the flies are also? based on what i've seen, I would strongly disagree. Steve

No, I am not sure about that, and I am sorry if it sounded too authoritative (I just now edited the post to add qualifiers as such) and it certainly depends on RPM.  Based on information I have read and the way it seems to behave, I believe that after at least 5K RPM (if not sooner) the stock flies are virtually wide open with WOT.  I also suspect that regardless of throttle position, if the throttle is not wide open, the flies are probably not either.

I really do wish we had access to a Kawasaki engineer who could give us not only all the exact data, but also the reasoning behind everything. 

All I know for SURE is what the bike feels like before and after a Ghul flash.  I have zero experience with flies totally removed.  And probably very few people know what it feels like comparing a Ghul flash to files totally removed.

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

the fact that the engine makes more  with the flies removed or reflashed, from 5k on down, proves that the flies are indeed restricting the intake flow, and perhaps even to much. Steve

[maxtog]

the fact that the engine makes more  with the flies removed or reflashed, from 5k on down, proves that the flies are indeed restricting the intake flow, and perhaps even to much. Steve

Oh, I agree.  Stock, I don't think WOT will open the flies completely at lower RPM.  But for things like maximum acceleration from stop to 100 or 1/4 mile times and things, you spend so little time at 1-3K RPM, I am not sure it matters much.  And as Brian pointed out, the reflashes are still programmed so the flies can't open all the way but so quickly when way down low, due to idle control and start-off drivability (my take on it, anyway).

I can say, even as low as 3K RPM, there is a definite difference in bike behavior before and after the Ghul flash in most gears...  the reprogram might not be getting the flies largely out of the way, but it helps enough to matter.  When you start getting lower RPM than that, it is hard for me to tell (and I am talking about cruising perhaps in 5th then significantly opening the throttle or slamming it WOT; in gear 6, that is very rarely something I would do, since it makes FAR more sense to drop down to 5th.).

[gPink]

Interesting article from Brock's Performance concerning the secondary throttle plates in a 2006 zx14.....
http://www.brocksperformance.com/brocknm/templates/bpp1.aspx?articleid=124&zoneid=11

[VirginiaJim]

This probably has nothing to do with the subject in question but when has that stopped anything.  Some of ya'll really weren't in on this bike from the beginning so you may not be aware of this document from Kwackers...   Thought I would just add it into the mix on why the bike is what it is..

[tomp]

Maxtog, you did partially answer a question I was starting to post.  It was, are the secondaries there to control acceleration/smoothness at lower RPM's are to satisfy folks like the EPA, lessening the intake volume (db) and their stupid requirements?  I took a ride this afternoon, specifically to see in what RPM range I ride,  Found I hardly ever exceed 3.5K before shifting, and acceleration is very smooth and linear.  Considering my required riding style (due to traffic and LEO's) what benefit, if any, would a Guhl flash or removal of plates be for me?

My phone rang while typing above.  I will read  the articles since posted, but still wonder what you think...  tp