I found the secondaries unpredictable and sometimes upsetting.I believe that is the crux of all this. It's the "I found. . ." A personal expectation vs experience, that varies with every rider. I find the 14's acceleration linear and experience what I expected. You, on the other hand didn't experience what you expected for/from a 1400cc bike. Having never been a supersport rider, I wasn't wanting or expecting that level of response from the 14. As it is, I can out run most vehicles I come in contact with, excluding ZX14's etc, and I'm ok with that. You wanted more, and the Guhl/ plate removals will give you more of what YOU expected. At least mods were available to improve upon what you had. A win-win for all, as I see it...
On my previous post I mentioned they don't restrict unless at WOT. What I meant is at WOT, they restrict some,
and still, it's all about just what the secondaries are doing, everyone is still ignoring the other variable...vvt. Steve
Looks like this discussion has been around other bike forums for quite a while now. More to add to the confusion. . . [links]
OK, read the last link Tomp provided, what suzuki says about their secondaries. I have never seen that - ever. yet read it, it's the same thing I have already written in this thread. Steve
"The official word from Suzuki is that its SDTV (Suzuki Dual Throttle Valve) system brings superb response feel, smooth power delivery, improved mileage and reduced emissions. The secondary butterflies do this by opening just enough to provide the optimum intake velocity based on throttle position and rpm rather than letting you decide with your throttle inputs. For example, if you were to open the throttle fully at low rpm on a setup without the secondary butterflies, intake velocity would drop and the engine would not pull cleanly. In addition, the secondary butterflies can smooth the off/on response by opening at a set rateagain, no matter how quickly you open the throttle. And as we’re finding out with more bikes in recent years, in some cases the secondary butterflies are used to restrict the engine’s output to meet emissions requirements."
Ok, since we're back in business, i do want to give a shout out to Rembrant - I feel he is actually the most knowledgeable on the secondary's action on this thread, and he has personally played with the maps and graciously provided them for us. That's not speculation folks, that's fact, which is what we sorely need. Thanks Rem - Steve
LOL...well, the way I see it, either you're interested in this stuff, or you're not.
It's interesting to me to see what the bike's controls are trying to do.
In discussing what the secondary flies primary purpose is, it is interesting to note that they did do semi-gear specific mapping for them...maps for gears 1-2, 3-4, and 5-6. By comparison, the fueling and ignition are a bit simpler...one fuel map for all gears, and one ignition map for all gears. On the second gen bikes, the ECO mode utilizes slightly different fueling and ignition maps...but the secondary fly maps are all the same if I recall correctly. The ECO mode looks to be about 5% leaner on the fueling and uses about 2 degrees more ignition advance.
In looking at the secondary fly maps, you can clearly see the progression of the flies from closed to open. The map is relatively easy to change...you just have to make sure you keep it smooth and not make massive number jumps imho. The other big thing is not to open them too early...it could be simply unsettling, and it could be downright dangerous. I think this is one area where fly removal is more beneficial than reprogramming them.
It wouldn't hurt to talk to Turbo (Mike) in TN...I believe he bought the Woolich kit for his track built ZX10R, and was going to for the C14 as well...he was going to experiment with a ported and polished C14 cylinder head, and possibly ZX14 pistons to boost compression?...My memory is gettin' fuzzy on the topic now.
Each of the maps for the secondaries opens them earlier / farther in the higher gears; first map is conservative (gears 1&2), second map is a bit more aggressive, opening the 'flies sooner (3 &4) and finally the most aggressive of all the maps is for 5&6. Exactly the way you would expect if the goal is to tame the bike's output.
The interesting trial would be to just open the 'flies all the way whenever the bike was running; that would simulate the 'flies being removed. The problem is the fast idle cam comes into play and the engine will not idle.
Brian
Yessir, I'm with you on all counts. My involvement in this whole discussion was more with the how, and less with the why. It was always my understanding that the flies were there to tame the bike's output.
Somebody mentioned earlier that the flies were there to smooth the power delivery, and make the 1400 power plant less radical as it were...but I can't say I agree with that myself. I had a PC3 and flies removed on my 08 C14, and that bike was smooth as glass and it ran like a champ.
I'm only here for the technical discussions anyway...my C14 is currently all stock, at least with regards to fuel, air, and exhaust;).
Rem
Rem,
Maybe you can tell me why tuners get more power with the secondaries in?
I know that in the case of the ZX14R, they're now leaving the flies in (but reflashed via the ECU) Annnnd adding a piggy-back PC5 for fine tuning...
Can you tell me what or where the more power is that you're referring to?
I have no idea if I can answer that question or not...
I know that in the case of the ZX14R, they're now leaving the flies in (but reflashed via the ECU) Annnnd adding a piggy-back PC5 for fine tuning...
Interesting thread. I find it interesting that those who do not or have not experienced 'flies out' have strong opinions.