Secondary Butterflies

[maxtog]

Maxtog, you did partially answer a question I was starting to post.  It was, are the secondaries there to control acceleration/smoothness at lower RPM's are to satisfy folks like the EPA, lessening the intake volume (db) and their stupid requirements?

I don't know for sure.  My theory is that they serve several purposes and that emissions is probably the primary reason, followed closely by emissions, then drivability is another, and perhaps fuel economy is probably another.

I took a ride this afternoon, specifically to see in what RPM range I ride,  Found I hardly ever exceed 3.5K before shifting, and acceleration is very smooth and linear.  Considering my required riding style (due to traffic and LEO's) what benefit, if any, would a Guhl flash or removal of plates be for me?

I can't answer your question exactly, because it depends on how much throttle you are using when you shift.  You can lazily shift with little throttle at 3.5K and in those cases, you would probably not notice any difference.  But if you pile on the throttle at that same RPM, yes, you would notice a difference.  It would be more responsive and feel considerably more powerful.   Stock, the bike feels almost laggy in such situations, like it is ignoring a chunk of the throttle input and delaying the power delivery over time.  Post-flash, it is much more responsive.  But it is not abrupt, and quite easy to get spoiled and used to rather quickly.  Flip the bike to the FEAM map and it is an instant "deja vu" of how bad it was before and you wonder why you hadn't done this sooner.

[maxtog]

Interesting article from Brock's Performance concerning the secondary throttle plates in a 2006 zx14.....
http://www.brocksperformance.com/brocknm/templates/bpp1.aspx?articleid=124&zoneid=11

It is interesting, indeed.  This is a third type of mod I had not heard of (not flies removal, and not ECU reflash) that simply tricks the bike into thinking it is in 6th gear all the time [or most of the time], so it opens the flies sooner and greater.  (Each gear has a different flies map, and the higher the gear, the less the flies are used- the sooner and more they open) Obviously effective.  Seems simple, but also makes me wonder how that would affect engine in any other ways, since I believe the fuel maps are tweaked by not just RPM, but also gear (but maybe not... I can't remember now).  Plus you end up with a gear indicator that always says "6" and a no-longer working neutral indicator.

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

I've read all of brocks c-14 diaries in the past. As I recall, he really didn't like the flies out til he tried the bike on street gas.

 The other link provided by Virginia Jim  confirms some thing, one being that the 40mm TB's were selected to increase air velocity. I'm not the brightest bulb, but I'm thinking there might be something to that velocity idea, particularly in how it relates to drivability and throttle response. Steve

[B.D.F.]

The 6th gear map is different for opening the 'flies and opens them sooner. The 'trick' is to make the ECU sense that the bike is in 6th gear all the time. This is done with nothing more than a resistor hard- wired (Easy Boys!) in the gear position sensor. As you mention, the bike will always display that it is in OD or 6th gear. There used to be a TRE (timing retard eliminator) that came with a separate digital readout of the actual gear being used that one would stick on the dash but I do not know if it is made currently.

I believe the neutral indicator still works as that is a separate circuit than the gear position indicator.

Performance gains are modest but it is absolutely the easiest / cheapest of any ECU based mod. available for the C-14. If one does the wiring him / herself, the cost is only a few cents for the resistor.

Brian

It is interesting, indeed.  This is a third type of mod I had not heard of (not flies removal, and not ECU reflash) that simply tricks the bike into thinking it is in 6th gear all the time [or most of the time], so it opens the flies sooner and greater.  (Each gear has a different flies map, and the higher the gear, the less the flies are used- the sooner and more they open) Obviously effective.  Seems simple, but also makes me wonder how that would affect engine in any other ways, since I believe the fuel maps are tweaked by not just RPM, but also gear (but maybe not... I can't remember now).  Plus you end up with a gear indicator that always says "6" and a no-longer working neutral indicator.

[Rembrant]

There used to be a TRE (timing retard eliminator) that came with a separate digital readout of the actual gear being used that one would stick on the dash but I do not know if it is made currently.

It is still available Brian...at least for bikes other than the C14. I installed one on a Kawi ZX10R last year. The problem with the C14 is the Canbus? between the ECU and the instrument panel. One many other bike, the gear indicator signal between the ECU and Dash is simply a single 18 or 20ga wire. The Healtech TRE kits modify the signal between the gear indicator and the ECU, but also tie into the line between the ECU and the dash so that the dash still receives the correct signal for the correct gear. No can do on the C14 as you know.

A "TRE" on a C14 is really just a secondary fly modifier...

I've posted these stock secondary fly maps before from my 2010 C14. There are four different maps....neutral, one for 1-2, another for 3-4,and another for 5-6. So, you can clearly see what a TRE kit does for you...you're using either the 3-4 map, or the 5-6 map in place of the 1-2 map. Clear as mud yet?...lol. In the Healtech kits, you can select individual gears, which doesn't really work as intended with the C14 as you can see below...since gear 5 and 6 maps are the same, etc.

As you can see below, the stock secondary fly maps don't hit 100% open until quite a ways up there in TPS and RPM.

[B.D.F.]

I think you may be mixing up a TRE and a SpeedoHealer....?

CAN bus is not involved in the gear position indicator. There are six different resistors arrayed around the gear shift shaft and a current is passed through each one, depending on the gear the transmission is in at the moment. What the TRE does is to simply interrupt that signal, place the sixth gear value resistor in place, and the ECU senses the bike is in sixth gear all the time. No involvement with CAN bus or any other circuitry on the bike.

The TRE that was available for a C-14 had a long cable with a stick- on LED numeral readout with it; that was stuck to the dash to indicate the 'real' gear the bike was actually in while the dash would always show 'OD'. But that was one specific brand and I cannot remember the brand name :-(  A very quick Google search did not turn it up so I think it may be out of production. ??

Brian

It is still available Brian...at least for bikes other than the C14. I installed one on a Kawi ZX10R last year. The problem with the C14 is the Canbus? between the ECU and the instrument panel. One many other bike, the gear indicator signal between the ECU and Dash is simply a single 18 or 20ga wire. The Healtech TRE kits modify the signal between the gear indicator and the ECU, but also tie into the line between the ECU and the dash so that the dash still receives the correct signal for the correct gear. No can do on the C14 as you know.

A "TRE" on a C14 is really just a secondary fly modifier...

I've posted these stock secondary fly maps before from my 2010 C14. There are four different maps....neutral, one for 1-2, another for 3-4,and another for 5-6. So, you can clearly see what a TRE kit does for you...you're using either the 3-4 map, or the 5-6 map in place of the 1-2 map. Clear as mud yet?...lol. In the Healtech kits, you can select individual gears, which doesn't really work as intended with the C14 as you can see below...since gear 5 and 6 maps are the same, etc.

As you can see below, the stock secondary fly maps don't hit 100% open until quite a ways up there in TPS and RPM.

[Rembrant]

I think you may be mixing up a TRE and a SpeedoHealer....?

CAN bus is not involved in the gear position indicator. There are six different resistors arrayed around the gear shift shaft and a current is passed through each one, depending on the gear the transmission is in at the moment. What the TRE does is to simply interrupt that signal, place the sixth gear value resistor in place, and the ECU senses the bike is in sixth gear all the time. No involvement with CAN bus or any other circuitry on the bike.

No no...I realize that CAN bus is not involved in the gear position indicator (on the transmission), but it IS involved to tell the dash what gear to display. That is how the signal gets from the ECU to the dash isn't it? I mean, the gear indicator was traditionally for just the ECU...they were in use by Kawasaki long before there were ever gear position indicators on the dash. Before CAN bus, the ECU simply relayed the same signal (resistance) directly to the dash, and the dash displayed the gear you were in. This was always done on one wire.

On other Kawi's with a gear position indicator, you can install a TRE, but maintain the gear indicator on the dash. You just have to tap into the wire that goes between the ECU and the dash. This way, the gear position signal gets modified for the ECU, but the TRE still sends the correct signal to the dash. Since you can't just stick a posi-tap into the CAN bus, this isn't possible on the C14.

Did I get that wording right yet?...LOL.

[just gone]

But that was one specific brand and I cannot remember the brand name :-(  A very quick Google search did not turn it up so I think it may be out of production. ??

This it?   http://calsportbike.com/gipro/  specifically the GiPro K03
Fred Harmon's review: http://www.angelridevideos.com/reviews/GiProATRE.html

[Rembrant]

This it?   http://calsportbike.com/gipro/  specifically the GiPro K03
Fred Harmon's review: http://www.angelridevideos.com/reviews/GiProATRE.html

"Squirt-ability"?...lol. That's the first time I've ever heard an engineer use that term to describe something.

[B.D.F.]

Engineer?

 

Brian

"Squirt-ability"?...lol. That's the first time I've ever heard an engineer use that term to describe something.

[B.D.F.]

Yep, that is the brand- thanks Marty.

Brian

This it?   http://calsportbike.com/gipro/  specifically the GiPro K03
Fred Harmon's review: http://www.angelridevideos.com/reviews/GiProATRE.html

[B.D.F.]

Well, it really does not matter- the signal is interrupted before it gets to any part of the bike wiring so CAN bus is not dealt with by the TRE anyway. It would be the same as taking a second gear position indicator, setting it to sixth gear, and plugging that into the bike's harness. CAN bus to the dash or not, the entire bike will only sense it is in sixth gear.

I think the words are getting in the way here- regardless of how the ECU communicates to the dash display, it is beyond a generic hack to 'outsmart' it anyway, CAN bus or not. And there is no way to seperate the signal to the dash from the one from the G.P.I. (neutral switch is what Kawasaki calls it) on the C-14.

Brian

No no...I realize that CAN bus is not involved in the gear position indicator (on the transmission), but it IS involved to tell the dash what gear to display. That is how the signal gets from the ECU to the dash isn't it? I mean, the gear indicator was traditionally for just the ECU...they were in use by Kawasaki long before there were ever gear position indicators on the dash. Before CAN bus, the ECU simply relayed the same signal (resistance) directly to the dash, and the dash displayed the gear you were in. This was always done on one wire.

On other Kawi's with a gear position indicator, you can install a TRE, but maintain the gear indicator on the dash. You just have to tap into the wire that goes between the ECU and the dash. This way, the gear position signal gets modified for the ECU, but the TRE still sends the correct signal to the dash. Since you can't just stick a posi-tap into the CAN bus, this isn't possible on the C14.

Did I get that wording right yet?...LOL.

[Rembrant]

Engineer?

Fred mentioned on the COG forum the other day that he was an engineer. I thought he was an IT guy or an electronics tech or something...but I didn't know he was an engineer.

I think the words are getting in the way here- regardless of how the ECU communicates to the dash display, it is beyond a generic hack to 'outsmart' it anyway, CAN bus or not. And there is no way to seperate the signal to the dash from the one from the G.P.I. (neutral switch is what Kawasaki calls it) on the C-14.

Yeah, that was kind of my point. You can't separate the signal on the C14, but you can on other Kawi's (and other brands) with the same TRE and GiPro products. That's how they're designed. The TRE jobbies can send a modified gear position signal to the ECU, but still send a clean unaltered signal to the dash so that the gear indicator remains intact. It just doesn't work on the C14....the C14 ECU doesn't "speak" to the dash like some of the other bikes do.

Rem

[maxtog]

I've posted these stock secondary fly maps before from my 2010 C14.

It was good to post them again.  Very strange scale they use for the throttle opening %.

As you can see below, the stock secondary fly maps don't hit 100% open until quite a ways up there in TPS and RPM.

You're not kidding...  in 1/2 gear 100% flies requires over 76% throttle (although looks like over 53% is almost there) AND over 9500 RPM!!  Even in 5/6 gear it is over 9000RPM!

[Rembrant]

It was good to post them again.  Very strange scale they use for the throttle opening %.

You're not kidding...  in 1/2 gear 100% flies requires over 76% throttle (although looks like over 53% is almost there) AND over 9500 RPM!!  Even in 5/6 gear it is over 9000RPM!

It is a strange scale isn't it. You'd have to talk to somebody at Mitsubishi to find out why...lol. Unless somebody on here can tell us?

So, each one of the columns of the this scale correspond to a voltage output from the TPS itself. That part is actually quite simple...there's a voltage input to the TPS as outlined in the FSM, and a TPS output voltage scale between closed throttle and WOT. (This information is important with regards to the throttle calibration discussions...).

As you can see looking at the STP maps, obviously things are more restricted in the lower rev/TPS range. Further on up...the flies are less restricting...they're basically mimicking the action of the throttle position. (Still restrictive, yes...but not as much in the higher revs as the lower revs).

You can open the STP's pretty early...as in starting to ramp them open at 2500, and then having them at 100% open by 5000 RPM, across the whole graph....or there abouts. It may seem kinda complicated...but if you know your way around an Excell spreadsheet...you can dig into this stuff pretty quickly.

The Woolich software allows you to do all kinds of neat things that we're already used to....highlighting areas or groups, copy and paste, adding or subtracting numbers from groups, etc. Next time I fire up the old garage laptop, I'll take a screen shot of one of the STP maps I made last winter.

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

 in my mind the secondary maps shown pretty clearly indicate that the flies are to neuter the bike in the lower gears, it has nothing to do with noise emissions. Steve

[maxtog]

in my mind the secondary maps shown pretty clearly indicate that the flies are to neuter the bike in the lower gears, it has nothing to do with noise emissions. Steve

I don't think one has to exclude the other.  Maybe they are killing several birds with one stone.

[tomp]

But why neuter the 14 when it was marketed as basically a supersport with bags?  The Q&A that Jim posted, stated that it wasn't a ZX14 with bags, but the sportiest ST available.  KHI had their reasons to place the secondaries, and have them open as/when they do.  Being a considerable expense to engineer and place them on all the bikes, they had to have a justifiable, at least in their consideration, reason to do so. Anyone know that tidbit of info?  If the  plates don't increase low/mid torque, when used with VVT, what was the reason?   

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

    When reading this, there are some places that, for a product manager, he's kind of all over the map. Read what he says about "why is the compression ratio lower than the zx14"... his answer doesn't make sense.  i think it's the same BS as his explanation of why there are secondaries.

 If you are a COG member and have read my most recent tech article, you understand why.

 steve

[elp_jc]

If the  plates don't increase low/mid torque, when used with VVT, what was the reason?

The main reason for them is smooth acceleration when whacking the throttle open, especially from lower rpm. With throttle-by-wire in most modern vehicles (including motorcycles), they're obsolete. Most powerful bikes still with cable throttles have them... even 600s. Another use for them is traction control: progressively choking the engine is smoother than cutting fuel (once timing retardation is not enough). Again, with throttle-by-wire, you can do all of that, plus ride modes, different throttle maps, cruise-control, etc.

On my previous post I mentioned they don't restrict unless at WOT. What I meant is at WOT, they restrict some, but as Maxtog commented, it's so little that doesn't really matter. They're meant to restrict when needed for smooth acceleration. A sport-touring bike is supposed to have better rideability than a supersport bike, and I agree. Haven't opened up this bike yet, but so far, my 2015 has flawless fueling for such a bike IMO. I'm not going to touch it.