Author Topic: Holy Crap SteveWFL was right!  (Read 13554 times)

Excavator

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Re: Holy Crap SteveWFL was right!
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2011, 12:30:11 PM »
so for us guys with ABS/TRAC would this be a wise choice to switch tire sizes?
i know on a car it will mess with the ABS/TRAC ECUs, and i would assume that it would do the same on a bike......right?

I plan to stay with the original size, I just don't see how changing could make that big of a difference. Of course I tend to worry too much.

Offline koval68

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Re: Holy Crap SteveWFL was right!
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2011, 01:20:36 PM »
I am not even going to comment on the 'need arising for new rubbers'.
Brian
Brian The Great speechless? No way! :rotflmao: :chugbeer:
IMO, You seem to do OK on the 50's!  :thumbs:
Thank you Cap'n!
Btw, with you at the controls, that FJR is a thoroughbred not a donkey. I can't wait to ride with you,again! :thumbs: :hail:
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Offline koval68

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Re: Holy Crap SteveWFL was right!
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2011, 01:28:03 PM »
I plan to stay with the original size, I just don't see how changing could make that big of a difference. Of course I tend to worry too much.
Thats what I thought till I had the opportunity to compare the two sizes on the same bike!
Tom"Killer"Kowalski   COG#9263  Newmarket,Ontario
"Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need,  but not every man's greed."
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Offline JetJock

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Re: Holy Crap SteveWFL was right!
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2011, 01:44:37 PM »
Thats what I thought till I had the opportunity to compare the two sizes on the same bike!

That's what she said . . .

Offline Barry

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Re: Holy Crap SteveWFL was right!
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2011, 02:13:15 PM »
I plan to stay with the original size, I just don't see how changing could make that big of a difference. Of course I tend to worry too much.

Steeper head angle, makes the bike steer quicker.  I'm for sure doing the 190/55 when I burn up the PR2s I'm running now.

*EDIT*
Also, the 190/55 will be forced to be taller on the same width rim than a 180/55, thus the profile will produce a more pronounced turn-in as well.
*EDIT*

Barry
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 03:16:36 PM by Barry »
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Holy Crap SteveWFL was right!
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2011, 02:18:25 PM »
Well, 'rubbers' might have a different meaning in Canadia but down here using the word 'arising' and 'rubbers' in the same sentance is funny. I just can't comment too much in a public forum.

By the way, fixed that Cap'n Bob message for you.  ;D

Brian


Brian The Great speechless? No way! :rotflmao: :chugbeer:Thank you Cap'n!
Btw, with you at the controls, that FJR is a thoroughbred not a donkey. I can't wait to ride with you,again because your riding makes me look great! :thumbs: :hail:
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline jjsC6

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Re: Holy Crap SteveWFL was right!
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2011, 02:45:34 PM »
The contact patch area will stay the same given the same bike weight (gross) and tire pressure. Only reducing the tire pressure or increasing the weight on the tire will increase the contact patch size.

I am not even going to comment on the 'need arising for new rubbers'.

Brian

Brian, you are not really perpetuating that myth are you?  I've never believed that and never will.  Why would they put wider tires on cars if the contact patch never changes?
Jim
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Holy Crap SteveWFL was right!
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2011, 06:10:24 PM »
Good for you, Jim! I am a big fan of anyone who can stand behind their beliefs no matter what the facts might suggest.  ???

"To me the truth is precious.... I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong.... (My views have) already won for me the scorn and contempt and ridicule of some of my fellowmen. I am looked upon as being odd, strange, peculiar.... But truth is truth and though all the world would reject it and turn against me, I will cling to truth still."

Charles S. deFord  From the introduction to his 1931 book in which he proves the earth is flat.

Back to tires: Area = Force / Pressure. The only way to increase area is to increase force or reduce pressure. To answer your question directly, the reason wider tires are used in some forms of racing is so that the pressure inside the tire can be reduced and gain area. Wrinkle- wall slicks on funny cars and rails run about 2 PSI. If you put that same amount of pressure in a smaller tire the contact patch area would be the same size but the tire could not take the stress of drag racing.

Force = Mass X Area and the Earth goes around the Sun. Just a head- start for future debates....  ;) ;D

Brian



Brian, you are not really perpetuating that myth are you?  I've never believed that and never will.  Why would they put wider tires on cars if the contact patch never changes?
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline 556ALPHA

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Offline jjsC6

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Re: Holy Crap SteveWFL was right!
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2011, 07:50:57 PM »
Good for you, Jim! I am a big fan of anyone who can stand behind their beliefs no matter what the facts might suggest.  ???

"To me the truth is precious.... I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong.... (My views have) already won for me the scorn and contempt and ridicule of some of my fellowmen. I am looked upon as being odd, strange, peculiar.... But truth is truth and though all the world would reject it and turn against me, I will cling to truth still."

Charles S. deFord  From the introduction to his 1931 book in which he proves the earth is flat.

Back to tires: Area = Force / Pressure. The only way to increase area is to increase force or reduce pressure. To answer your question directly, the reason wider tires are used in some forms of racing is so that the pressure inside the tire can be reduced and gain area. Wrinkle- wall slicks on funny cars and rails run about 2 PSI. If you put that same amount of pressure in a smaller tire the contact patch area would be the same size but the tire could not take the stress of drag racing.

Force = Mass X Area and the Earth goes around the Sun. Just a head- start for future debates....  ;) ;D

Brian

Brian, I know  you are a really smart guy, but I still don't believe it.  Why don't I just run bicycle sized tires on my Z06?  On street cars, the tire pressures are no different from one tire to the next on cars like the Corvette - different models of the Corvette have three different sized tires.  Can you honestly tell me that you believe that if I run a bicycle tire on my Corvette at 30lbs that it will have the same amount of rubber on the ground as my 325/30-19's with 30lbs in them?  How do you account for tires with tread patterns versus slicks?

I'm not smart enough to explain it, but I really believe that the theory behind your contention is taken out of context when it comes to tires.  I'll go to my grave not believing it that tread width and diameter of the tire don't make any difference if the weight on the tire and the pressures are the same.
Jim
2010 Concours - Sold Feb 2013
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2011 Ninja 1000, 2013 BMW 1600 GT, 2012 Ducati Panigale

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Holy Crap SteveWFL was right!
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2011, 08:22:41 PM »
Seriously, tires change size to do different jobs and handle different levels of stress. The contact patch area really (really, really) is a function of the weight on that tire and the pressure inside it.

One exception would be grooves because the tire carcass is tough enough to resist deforming across tread cuts. So from the inside of the tire, it would have about the same contact patch size regardless of the tread so yes, a slick would put some additional rubber in contact with the ground (additional contact area) where a treaded tire had the tread cut out.

But really, when you increase a tire's size for a given vehicle, you have to reduce the pressure that inflates that tire to maintain correct tire geometry; it is the lowering of the pressure that increases the contact patch area, not the size of the tire itself.

And I didn't say that all tires could do any other tire's job or function, just that the contact patch area is a function of pressure and weight (force). There are some photos out and about on the 'Net to show this very thing (same tire, different inflation and correspondingly varying contact areas).

As far as the bicycle tires on an auto (any reasonable auto), no that would not work simply because the tire does not have enough area to satisfy the requirements of the vehicle load. In other words, there isn't enough A available in the tire to support the F no matter what the P.  ;D  But because bicycle tires will not work on an auto does not mean the physics has failed, only that another problem has become dominant. The same thing happens when a tire goes flat- just because pressure goes to zero does not mean that the area goes to infinity, it simply means that having a flat tire is the major problem and the car is now resting on the wheel edges through the flat tire carcass.

So changing a motorcycle tire to another applicable size won't change the contact patch area if the pressures used are the same. I am not trying to convince you here, just discussing the matter.

Brian



Brian, I know  you are a really smart guy, but I still don't believe it.  Why don't I just run bicycle sized tires on my Z06?  On street cars, the tire pressures are no different from one tire to the next on cars like the Corvette - different models of the Corvette have three different sized tires.  Can you honestly tell me that you believe that if I run a bicycle tire on my Corvette at 30lbs that it will have the same amount of rubber on the ground as my 325/30-19's with 30lbs in them?  How do you account for tires with tread patterns versus slicks?

I'm not smart enough to explain it, but I really believe that the theory behind your contention is taken out of context when it comes to tires.  I'll go to my grave not believing it that tread width and diameter of the tire don't make any difference if the weight on the tire and the pressures are the same.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline jjsC6

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Re: Holy Crap SteveWFL was right!
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2011, 05:55:38 AM »
Brian, thanks for taking the time to write such a nice reply - in many ways.  That is one of the things I think we all appreciate about you on the forum. 
Jim
2010 Concours - Sold Feb 2013
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Holy Crap SteveWFL was right!
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2011, 08:19:38 AM »
Thanks for the kind words Jim but hey, we're just conversing here. No need to get nasty or anything like that, and I always 'talk' to people on the forum (or anywhere else) as I would if standing in front of that person (or people). It saves a lot of time later when we all meet at an event and I don't have to wonder who's enraged before I even meet them.  ;)  There is an old sayin' in Texas: Everyone should be afforded the respect due an armed man.

Brian



Brian, thanks for taking the time to write such a nice reply - in many ways.  That is one of the things I think we all appreciate about you on the forum.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline DaveO

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Re: Holy Crap SteveWFL was right!
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2011, 08:55:00 AM »
Brian, I know  you are a really smart guy, but I still don't believe it.  Why don't I just run bicycle sized tires on my Z06?  On street cars, the tire pressures are no different from one tire to the next on cars like the Corvette - different models of the Corvette have three different sized tires.  Can you honestly tell me that you believe that if I run a bicycle tire on my Corvette at 30lbs that it will have the same amount of rubber on the ground as my 325/30-19's with 30lbs in them?  How do you account for tires with tread patterns versus slicks?

I'm not smart enough to explain it, but I really believe that the theory behind your contention is taken out of context when it comes to tires.  I'll go to my grave not believing it that tread width and diameter of the tire don't make any difference if the weight on the tire and the pressures are the same.

brian  should have said tires of the same carcass contstruction have same contact patch  figuring the same psi and loading.
A bicycle tire and  drag racing slick for a car would have much different carcass construction.
I think he's right btw .
Maybe  some one trained in that field (physics)  could chime in.

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Holy Crap SteveWFL was right!
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2011, 11:21:59 AM »
The tire construction won't really come into play moving between similar tires of similar sizes. Again, this discussion was about swapping a motorcycle tire from a 190/50 to a 185/55 or a 190/55; the difference in contact patch area between all of those sizes on the same motorcycle will be because of any pressure differences, not because of the different tire sizes. The contact patch shape may vary with the size of the tire but not the overall area.

Maybe someone trained in physics already did chime in?  ;) I don't think there is much room in A = F/P for interpretation.

Brian



brian  should have said tires of the same carcass contstruction have same contact patch  figuring the same psi and loading.
A bicycle tire and  drag racing slick for a car would have much different carcass construction.
I think he's right btw .
Maybe  some one trained in that field (physics)  could chime in.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline DaveO

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Re: Holy Crap SteveWFL was right!
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2011, 11:53:27 AM »
this discussion was about swapping a motorcycle tire from a 190/50 to a 185/55 or a 190/55; the difference in contact patch area between all of those sizes on the same motorcycle will be because of any pressure differences, not because of the different tire sizes.

we are in agreement ...i think

Offline jjsC6

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Re: Holy Crap SteveWFL was right!
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2011, 04:10:50 PM »
I think the reason for 55 series tires is to put more rubber on the road when leaned over - take a look at the profile of two two tires and you'll see what I' mean.
Jim
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Offline DaveO

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Re: Holy Crap SteveWFL was right!
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2011, 06:13:17 PM »
I think the reason for 55 series tires is to put more rubber on the road when leaned over - take a look at the profile of two two tires and you'll see what I' mean.

you can get that with 180/55 also.
The bonus is  less unsprung weight.
Some  will spend thousands trying to lighten their wheels but put a heavier than nessasary tire on.

Bob

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Re: Holy Crap SteveWFL was right!
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2011, 06:24:25 PM »

you can get that with 180/55 also.
The bonus is  less unsprung weight.
Some  will spend thousands trying to lighten their wheels but put a heavier than nessasary tire on.


Not trying to be a smart azz. But being a former FJR rider, I'm sure Jim is probably aware of that. Because of my posting this, obviously 180/55 is the rear FJR size.   ;)

Offline jjsC6

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Re: Holy Crap SteveWFL was right!
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2011, 10:25:39 AM »

Not trying to be a smart azz. But being a former FJR rider, I'm sure Jim is probably aware of that. Because of my posting this, obviously 180/55 is the rear FJR size.   ;)

Thanks for covering me  :)

The debate as to which is better - a 180 or 190 in a 55 series is pretty insignificant to me.  The math is easy to run to figure out what going from one to the other does to the height of the tire.  No question it will change how "stretched" the tire is on the same size wheel, which will have some impact on the profile of the tire.  Six to one/half dozen to the other.  I'll be trying a 190 because I'd rather not change the profile of the tire once by going to a 55, then changing the profile again by downsizing to a 180  - which by my account would be back toward the profile of the original 190/50.
Jim
2010 Concours - Sold Feb 2013
Current bikes....
2011 Ninja 1000, 2013 BMW 1600 GT, 2012 Ducati Panigale