Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: ZG on June 28, 2011, 10:08:23 PM
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So I know many of you have pulled your flies, I still have not but am currently only running a slip-on.
I'd like to hear some concrete facts on pro's and con's of doing this... ??? :o :-\
Does it make more hp? More torque? Less? Smoother? Harsher? (sp?) Only do with full system? Do not do with stock config? MPG? Remap required? etc, etc, etc...
I'd like to hear both sides of the fence on this...
I'm currently considering going to a full system with PCV and filter, I spoke with my shop today and they recommended not pulling the flies, they said doing it wouldn't produce anymore power, but would make it run more "rough/harsh"...
I'm confused. :-\
Thanks in advance! Oh, and yes I already looked through all the threads with the search feature, seems to only be pro's from people that do it (kinda broad statements like "yes, do it", etc), not much from folks saying don't because... :(
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ZG, full system,PCV and filter here. Pulled flies and made me go red highlites........I like it verry much and would do it again and again. It feels better, it runs cooler and just seems happier now. I am now installing a quickshiffter. If you did not like it you could go back, flies that is. Your ride looks good and it should feel good........blanton
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ZG, full system,PCV and filter here. Pulled flies and made me go red highlites........I like it verry much and would do it again and again. It feels better, it runs cooler and just seems happier now. I am now installing a quickshiffter. If you did not like it you could go back, flies that is. Your ride looks good and it should feel good........blanton
Thanks BT.
Did you run the full system/PCV/filter before and after pulling the flies? Or all at once? I would think that pulling the flies makes a difference on the map you go with for the PCV right? Or can the same map be used for flies in/out?? :-\
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All at once ZG. I was worried about jerky throttle ,it has some, droning at speed, it has that too. But it also has the "OH Yes" now that means more to me. That is my take on the mod.....blanton
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If your going to carry the heavy load you might as well carry it well.........I was trying to put the cool smilly face here but am too stupid......
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Well, you didnt mention instant gratification! After the seat and shield it was one of the first mods I made. Low end is where i usually live and I was just never happy with the low end torque. PCIII and flyectomy cured that issue, no change in smoothness or abruptness, nothing negative to report, and as a daily commuter I picked up a coupla MPG. It all went downhill when someone posted about the AreaP full. Placed my order early, mailed the money, and waited, got one of the first sets, and probably have the most miles on the system, about 40000 miles worth, I also ended up with a PCV and Auto tune. Flies out? When I wear this bike out I will do it again, even if its a forced upon me ABS/traction control model. Next up, when I have time is the ZX14 TBs, I want everything this bike has the capability to provide. I want it all, and flies out is the first step.
As the commercial goes---Just do it!
PS: Reversal is as easy as removal should you decide you dont like it.
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All at once ZG. I was worried about jerky throttle ,it has some, droning at speed, it has that too. But it also has the "OH Yes" now that means more to me. That is my take on the mod.....blanton
So isn't it a fair assessment to say that the improvement you felt "could" have just been from the full system and PCV, and not necessarily the result of the flies pulled?? ???
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PS: Reversal is as easy as removal should you decide you dont like it.
Thanks SoP,
Wouldn't the reversal require remapping the PCV or no?? ???
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I would say yes, but the standard maps are readily available from Fuel Moto, provided that is who you bought from, and contrary to current postings, Jamie is da man, he'll speak with you on the phone and he tells it straight. He is a busy man and may be difficult to reach, but each time he returned the call as soon as he could. If anyone finds a better package deal the Fuelmoto post up, I lokked high and low and never could beat his price or service. Go the full monty, including the Autotune, kinda like owning your own rolling dyno. This winter I averaged 41 measured MPG, as things are finally warming up I am getting a consistant 44-45, with the throttle restricter on the back I get 48-49, fully loaded, she doesnt like my happy grip so everything is in slo mo and as smooth as can be, with the low end torque I short shift quite often. And I tend to do a controlled rolling stop, seems she want BOTH tires on the ground at all times :'( Go ahead, sell that slip on, contact Janie, and drop some change. I dont see a need to have a mechanic do the job, I aint that far north of you (Port Orchard, WA, and if you need help I have what we need to gitterdun, shops mostly cleaned up, tools are put away and I need company to do the ZX14 install! Beer after completion, which would include a short but dyno check out ride.
As a disclaimor-I am in no way affiliated with AreaP, I just like what they have done, I'm a sold customer, I bet you will be too, after the deed is done. I'd even let you have a crack on mine before we tear into yours. Fair deal?
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I would say yes, but the standard maps are readily available from Fuel Moto, provided that is who you bought from, and contrary to current postings, Jamie is da man, he'll speak with you on the phone and he tells it straight. He is a busy man and may be difficult to reach, but each time he returned the call as soon as he could. If anyone finds a better package deal the Fuelmoto post up, I lokked high and low and never could beat his price or service. Go the full monty, including the Autotune, kinda like owning your own rolling dyno. This winter I averaged 41 measured MPG, as things are finally warming up I am getting a consistant 44-45, with the throttle restricter on the back I get 48-49, fully loaded, she doesnt like my happy grip so everything is in slo mo and as smooth as can be, with the low end torque I short shift quite often. And I tend to do a controlled rolling stop, seems she want BOTH tires on the ground at all times :'( Go ahead, sell that slip on, contact Janie, and drop some change. I dont see a need to have a mechanic do the job, I aint that far north of you (Port Orchard, WA, and if you need help I have what we need to gitterdun, shops mostly cleaned up, tools are put away and I need company to do the ZX14 install! Beer after completion, which would include a short but dyno check out ride.
As a disclaimor-I am in no way affiliated with AreaP, I just like what they have done, I'm a sold customer, I bet you will be too, after the deed is done. I'd even let you have a crack on mine before we tear into yours. Fair deal?
I'm excited just reading this SoP!! ;D ;D ;D
The full system I'd go with is actually the Muzzys dual carbon though, not the AP, no offence...
I do appreciate the offer, I'll definitely keep that in mind, more to come! :chugbeer: :chugbeer: :chugbeer: :chugbeer:
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Mine are staying in for sure!!!!!!! I dont need anymore electronic gadgets "PCV" and or things that could possibly go wrong, and like this bike needs more low end torque and or HP! ::)
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My ZX14 significantly decreased MPG when I popped the flies. PCIII after that mod didn't help MPG but did help the lean condition.
Mine are staying in on the C14, its a long distance commuter (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/avatars/biggrin.gif)
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Forgot to add Autotune. I feel like it makes everything gell. I too am interested in the larger TBs.....blanton
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Forgot to add Autotune. I feel like it makes everything gell. I too am interested in the larger TBs.....blanton
Further between stops is more important to me than throttlebody mods, thin gasket mods and porting heads and such.
A real simple mod is putting a whole ZX14 engine in, not just the bigger Tbs. Ton more HP and of course mine got a whopping 29 MPG when I babied it.
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Son of Pappy, your post inspired me. I am a new to C14's after years on Blackbirds...
I recently picked up a Two Brothers slip on, PCIII, and the flies are next! :D Oh, and I live in Bonney Lake, just up the road from you!
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ZG,
Have you looked into having your ECU reflashed with a custom map rather than going the PCV route? This would eliminate the need to pull the flies as how much and at what rpm they open can all be adjusted in the reflash (along with eliminating the 155mph speed limiter if you want). They can even tweak the timing advance in the reflash, though with the variable cam timing that opens up a big can of worms that would require a lot of dyno time to get right.
Here's the current thread on the Guhl Reflash
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=1585.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=1585.0)
And here's the current thread on the Dynotronics Reflash
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=1083.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=1083.0)
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After I installed my PCV, K&N filter and removed the flies. I feel in love this bike all over again. I like someone else mentioned actually increased my gas mileage on the bike after doing the above mentioned mods. I gained 2-3 MPGS after doing all the above mods. I would go back. The bike feels amazing after doing this.
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I've never ridden one with the flies out, so I won't even guess as to how real the improvements are. But one thing that is not in dispute is that any improvement is only in the mid-range. It has no effect on the actual horsepower peak which is at higher rpm. I'm 58 years old and started riding 40 years ago. I actually enjoy shifting gears. Point being that you can get the same performance with or without pulling them if you are just willing on using all six gears when you want more acceleration.
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What year do you have, if its a 10/11 then removing the flies impacts the traction control from what I understand. Going the flash path addresses this issue.
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I pulled my flies at 200 miles and installed the PC V and BMC filter. The first thing I noticed was that the power was available at lower rpms which I greatly appreciated. My PC V promptly failed and I have been riding without it for the last 1,200 miles. I took a 1,000 mile ride last weekend and averaged 44 MPG's hauling ass. I can't say whether the PC V will help MPG's but it makes sense that it will seeing Jamie takes fuel out of the map across the board. But I will take 44 MPG's averaging 80 MPH all day ;D
Bottom line is remove those flies.
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I have an 08'. I have a K&N filter, cut 6" off the stock pipe and have removed the 'flies. I did one thing at a time starting with the filter, then the pipe, then the 'flies. Removing the flies BY FAR produced the most positive results. It no longer has the dead spot right off idle, it no longer jerks at low load/rpm, the transitions are much, much smoother, it feels stronger where it is needed and so far my economy is slightly better.
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What year do you have, if its a 10/11 then removing the flies impacts the traction control from what I understand. Going the flash path addresses this issue.
I have an 09 Stewart.
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I removed my flies at approximately 1000 miles. With the right screwdriver, it takes ~15 minutes to remove or install them. I definitely noticed an improvement in low end torque/acceleration. My fuel mileage also improved 1 - 2 MPG according to the display. Unfortunately, the side effect of this mod is that the throttle IS a bit more responsive (on/off). I hear you can correct this with a throttle tamer, but I've become accustom to the changes over time.
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I pulled my flies the morning after I drove her home. I rode a demo bike before I bought mine and did not like the performance in the 2-5000 rpm range. Pulling the flies did add a lot of low end performance. Since then you can now reflash your ECM and have the flies open early using a map instead of mechanically removing the flies. I would do this if I started all over again. Get rid of the cannon of an exhaust an reflash the ECM. You will be happy with the outcome.
Rash
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I can't give you dyno numbers in black and white, but I can put it like this. It is almost like the difference between a V6 and a V8 Camaro (new). The low end grunt is there and it also pulls harder in the upper revs also. I noticed a little more abrubtness off throttle but nothing to make me regret my initial decision to pull the flies and add a PCV.
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Rode my used 09 for about 500 miles before pulling them. Had no pipes, etc on before of after the change, completely stock except for the flies. Noticed an immediate improvement in low end torque and power in general - much better response. The throttle was a little touchy, but not hard to manage at all. Fuel mileage stayed consistent.
Then I added the PCV, filter, and slip on - damn, what a better way to go!
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the bike runs pretty good in stock form even with flies in ..I feel no need to modify . If i wanted something to light my hair on fire Id go buy it.
The c-14 is to big and heavy to be a ripper anyway.
I'll save my $$ and enjoy it for what it is.
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ZG,
Have you looked into having your ECU reflashed with a custom map rather than going the PCV route? This would eliminate the need to pull the flies as how much and at what rpm they open can all be adjusted in the reflash (along with eliminating the 155mph speed limiter if you want). They can even tweak the timing advance in the reflash, though with the variable cam timing that opens up a big can of worms that would require a lot of dyno time to get right.
Here's the current thread on the Guhl Reflash
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=1585.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=1585.0)
And here's the current thread on the Dynotronics Reflash
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=1083.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=1083.0)
Yes MF, I've been reading those threads as well but it seems still a little untested fully and I do worry about warranty issues...
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I pulled my flies at 200 miles and installed the PC V and BMC filter. The first thing I noticed was that the power was available at lower rpms which I greatly appreciated. My PC V promptly failed and I have been riding without it for the last 1,200 miles. I took a 1,000 mile ride last weekend and averaged 44 MPG's hauling ass. I can't say whether the PC V will help MPG's but it makes sense that it will seeing Jamie takes fuel out of the map across the board. But I will take 44 MPG's averaging 80 MPH all day ;D
Bottom line is remove those flies.
Are you running a full system Mighty or a slip-on?
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Yes MF, I've been reading those threads as well but it seems still a little untested fully and I do worry about warranty issues...
Shouldn't be any more of a warranty issue than running a PC3 or PCV, though yes...you can pull the PC unit before taking it in for warranty work. I actually mentioned reflashing the ECU to my dealer the other day and my concern about it possibly voiding the warranty, and he said "they" (the dealership) wouldn't void the warranty for that unless it was clearly the cause of the failure (i.e. severe detonation damage due to advancing the timing to much or going way to lean on the fuel map).
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Are you running a full system Mighty or a slip-on?
Oops, I have a Two Brothers Carbon Fiber slip on. Looks great, sounds even better. Especially under full throttle 8)
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08 with 6k when I I first did the filter and 2 bro exhaust...nice little change. Next installed the PCV...Smoothed all the little spots out and a nice little bump in performance. A week latter I took out the flies...THATS WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR!!! I now had the low end torque of the Goldwing 1800 and the high end HP of a sport bike. Would do it again in a heart beat
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I've never ridden one with the flies out, so I won't even guess as to how real the improvements are. But one thing that is not in dispute is that any improvement is only in the mid-range. It has no effect on the actual horsepower peak which is at higher rpm. I'm 58 years old and started riding 40 years ago. I actually enjoy shifting gears. Point being that you can get the same performance with or without pulling them if you are just willing on using all six gears when you want more acceleration.
Wrong!!!!! I went from 134 peak hp to 150 peak hp AND gained 12% in torque down low. Once you uncork the engine, it feels like 1352cc's should.
Also I gained 3-5 MPG because of the improved torque. No longer have to downshift as often or use more right wrist to go.
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08 with 6k when I I first did the filter and 2 bro exhaust...nice little change. Next installed the PCV...Smoothed all the little spots out and a nice little bump in performance. A week latter I took out the flies...THATS WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR!!! I now had the low end torque of the Goldwing 1800 and the high end HP of a sport bike. Would do it again in a heart beat
C14,
When you then pulled the flies a week later did you then have to remap your PCV?
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Wrong!!!!! I went from 134 peak hp to 150 peak hp AND gained 12% in torque down low. Once you uncork the engine, it feels like 1352cc's should.
Also I gained 3-5 MPG because of the improved torque. No longer have to downshift as often or use more right wrist to go.
Are you saying that you picked that up with just the removal of the flies - no other mods? If so, that's the first I've heard of that.
Just looked at your sig. Looks to me like you picked up the horsepower you are bragging about with a number of mods.
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Wrong!!!!! I went from 134 peak hp to 150 peak hp AND gained 12% in torque down low. Once you uncork the engine, it feels like 1352cc's should.
Also I gained 3-5 MPG because of the improved torque. No longer have to downshift as often or use more right wrist to go.
Fly removal only won't increase HP. The Fuel controller, exhaust and air filter will. The fella you pointed that comment towards was simply commenting on flies out not making more HP.
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In my experience- removing the 'flies makes more torque (and consequently more HP) at low- to mid- range RPM ranges. It won't do much of anything for top end power. There is a significant gain in power and 'drivability' at lower RPM though and removing the 'flies is worth doing for that reason IMO. There will also be a significant amount of intake noise after the 'flies are removed, this is not really a problem but was quite noticeable at least on my bike.
The throttle does not get any more sensitive but there is more throttle response available. In other words, a small amount of throttle makes the same difference with 'flies or without 'flies but a larger turn of the throttle is not moderated by the secondary 'flies once they are removed so more <potential> power is available. It may take a more sensitive hand on the throttle to manage it once the 'flies are removed but recklessly grabbing a big handful of throttle is always a bad idea on a bike this big anyway. If one had been a big rough with the throttle in the first place and the secondary 'flies had been modulating the power for that person, then removing them might make the bike appear more sensitive to throttle inputs.
I personally don't look at removing the 'flies as a performance mod. as much as simply removing the factory supplied 'governor'. The bike acts exactly like a 1400 cc motorcycle should once the 'flies are removed; it is not a beast or unmanageable or anything similar but again, it is a big bike with a big, relatively powerful engine.
There are some folks reporting that they are successfully running the bike without 'flies and without any type of fuel management system, such as a Power Commander. I believe the bike will tend to run lean at low RPM and large throttle openings because the F.I. system is metering fuel based on an air management system that has been removed and the system has no way to compensate. My suggestion would be to use a Power Commander or similar to remap the fuel delivery if the 'flies are removed.
Brian
So I know many of you have pulled your flies, I still have not but am currently only running a slip-on.
I'd like to hear some concrete facts on pro's and con's of doing this... ??? :o :-\
Does it make more hp? More torque? Less? Smoother? Harsher? (sp?) Only do with full system? Do not do with stock config? MPG? Remap required? etc, etc, etc...
I'd like to hear both sides of the fence on this...
I'm currently considering going to a full system with PCV and filter, I spoke with my shop today and they recommended not pulling the flies, they said doing it wouldn't produce anymore power, but would make it run more "rough/harsh"...
I'm confused. :-\
Thanks in advance! Oh, and yes I already looked through all the threads with the search feature, seems to only be pro's from people that do it (kinda broad statements like "yes, do it", etc), not much from folks saying don't because... :(
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In my experience- removing the 'flies makes more torque (and consequently more HP) at low- to mid- range RPM ranges. It won't do much of anything for top end power. There is a significant gain in power and 'drivability' at lower RPM though and removing the 'flies is worth doing for that reason IMO. There will also be a significant amount of intake noise after the 'flies are removed, this is not really a problem but was quite noticeable at least on my bike.
The throttle does not get any more sensitive but there is more throttle response available. In other words, a small amount of throttle makes the same difference with 'flies or without 'flies but a larger turn of the throttle is not moderated by the secondary 'flies once they are removed so more <potential> power is available. It may take a more sensitive hand on the throttle to manage it once the 'flies are removed but recklessly grabbing a big handful of throttle is always a bad idea on a bike this big anyway. If one had been a big rough with the throttle in the first place and the secondary 'flies had been modulating the power for that person, then removing them might make the bike appear more sensitive to throttle inputs.
I personally don't look at removing the 'flies as a performance mod. as much as simply removing the factory supplied 'governor'. The bike acts exactly like a 1400 cc motorcycle should once the 'flies are removed; it is not a beast or unmanageable or anything similar but again, it is a big bike with a big, relatively powerful engine.
There are some folks reporting that they are successfully running the bike without 'flies and without any type of fuel management system, such as a Power Commander. I believe the bike will tend to run lean at low RPM and large throttle openings because the F.I. system is metering fuel based on an air management system that has been removed and the system has no way to compensate. My suggestion would be to use a Power Commander or similar to remap the fuel delivery if the 'flies are removed.
Brian
That sounds like a very good explanation and makes sense to me, thanks Brian!
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My bike was purchased with flys out, Full AREA P, Filter, PC-V, and Autotune, and came with a 150 rwhp dyno sheet. It was a little notchy or "on/off" at part throttle, and a G2 Throttle Tamer fixed it right up. 10 minute install there.
I rode my buddy's bone stock C14 (we both have 08s) and I can tell you, ride BOTH, and once you do, I can't imagine wanting to stay with the stock configuration. My buddy fully admits mine pulls in 6th as hard as his pulls in 4th. I put 50 miles on his bike, and it felt like I was riding a 600, and the throttle response was nonexistent - no crispness at all. The bike simply did not pull, and nothing happens down low. I routinely shift my bike at 3K or 4K when not riding "spiritedly" and it pulls fine at that rpm... my buddy's bike, not so much. I had no idea, as I had only ever ridden my modded C14.
Bottom line, get a test ride on a properly modded C14 before deciding NOT to mod your bike. My buddy is dying to mod his now. It's killing him to ride his stock.........
YMMV,
Barry
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In my experience- removing the 'flies makes more torque (and consequently more HP) at low- to mid- range RPM ranges. It won't do much of anything for top end power. There is a significant gain in power and 'drivability' at lower RPM though and removing the 'flies is worth doing for that reason IMO. There will also be a significant amount of intake noise after the 'flies are removed, this is not really a problem but was quite noticeable at least on my bike.
The throttle does not get any more sensitive but there is more throttle response available. In other words, a small amount of throttle makes the same difference with 'flies or without 'flies but a larger turn of the throttle is not moderated by the secondary 'flies once they are removed so more <potential> power is available. It may take a more sensitive hand on the throttle to manage it once the 'flies are removed but recklessly grabbing a big handful of throttle is always a bad idea on a bike this big anyway. If one had been a big rough with the throttle in the first place and the secondary 'flies had been modulating the power for that person, then removing them might make the bike appear more sensitive to throttle inputs.
I personally don't look at removing the 'flies as a performance mod. as much as simply removing the factory supplied 'governor'. The bike acts exactly like a 1400 cc motorcycle should once the 'flies are removed; it is not a beast or unmanageable or anything similar but again, it is a big bike with a big, relatively powerful engine.
There are some folks reporting that they are successfully running the bike without 'flies and without any type of fuel management system, such as a Power Commander. I believe the bike will tend to run lean at low RPM and large throttle openings because the F.I. system is metering fuel based on an air management system that has been removed and the system has no way to compensate. My suggestion would be to use a Power Commander or similar to remap the fuel delivery if the 'flies are removed.
Brian
Brian, your points are very good. But one comment. Electronic fuel injections systems can compensate to some degree for changes in air flow. The question is whether or not the change without the flies is significant enough or not. Because the air flow with the flies out is similar to the air flow with the flies fully open, there is a chance that the system can compensate, don't you think? I assume there is a throttle position sensor which could effect my thinking - I'm not sure how much that would limit the ability to meter in enough fuel. Food for thought.
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Only some F.I. systems can compensate for changes in airflow caused by external sources (like removing the 'flies) and our bikes do not use one of those systems.
Motorcycles use a system called Alpha N, mixed with another system called Speed- Density to control the fuel injection. These systems are based on engine RPM and throttle opening, and can be altered somewhat by local pressure in the induction system, the ambient temp., etc. But the two key inputs are RPM and throttle angle (throttle opening) which is totally defeated when the 'flies are removed; the F.I. system is calculating how much fuel is needed when the secondary 'flies are at, say, 10% open and in fact, they are 100% open because they have been removed.
The only other way to adjust for something like this would be with a closed- loop system, which would measure the results of how an engine is running and adjust the air / fuel map for future use. Unfortunately our bikes do not have O2 sensors and so cannot compensate even after a bad mixture is burned.
There is nothing wrong with Alpha N as a system; in fact, it is the one usually used in racing. It is just that it cannot compensate for any significant changes made to the mechanics of the system and removing a set of throttle plates is a huge change.
Brian
Brian, your points are very good. But one comment. Electronic fuel injections systems can compensate to some degree for changes in air flow. The question is whether or not the change without the flies is significant enough or not. Because the air flow with the flies out is similar to the air flow with the flies fully open, there is a chance that the system can compensate, don't you think? I assume there is a throttle position sensor which could effect my thinking - I'm not sure how much that would limit the ability to meter in enough fuel. Food for thought.
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Brian - great explanation (again!). Thanks
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My bike was purchased with flys out, Full AREA P, Filter, PC-V, and Autotune, and came with a 150 rwhp dyno sheet. It was a little notchy or "on/off" at part throttle, and a G2 Throttle Tamer fixed it right up. 10 minute install there.
I rode my buddy's bone stock C14 (we both have 08s) and I can tell you, ride BOTH, and once you do, I can't imagine wanting to stay with the stock configuration. My buddy fully admits mine pulls in 6th as hard as his pulls in 4th. I put 50 miles on his bike, and it felt like I was riding a 600, and the throttle response was nonexistent - no crispness at all. The bike simply did not pull, and nothing happens down low. I routinely shift my bike at 3K or 4K when not riding "spiritedly" and it pulls fine at that rpm... my buddy's bike, not so much. I had no idea, as I had only ever ridden my modded C14.
Bottom line, get a test ride on a properly modded C14 before deciding NOT to mod your bike. My buddy is dying to mod his now. It's killing him to ride his stock.........
YMMV,
Barry
Barry,
My question isn't regarding a C14 with mods vs stock, it's only in regards to pulling the flies if the bike has the mods done to it.
I know that a C14 with full system, filter, and PCV will put out more power etc than a stock one. :nuts:
My question is the difference between a C14 with a full system, filter, and PCV vs. full system, filter, PCV, and flies pulled...
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Barry,
My question isn't regarding a C14 with mods vs stock, it's only in regards to pulling the flies if the bike has the mods done to it.
I know that a C14 with full system, filter, and PCV will put out more power etc than a stock one. :nuts:
My question is the difference between a C14 with a full system, filter, and PCV vs. full system, filter, PCV, and flies pulled...
I've seen dyno charts of flies pulled, versus flies in. The difference is about an additional 10-12 ft/lbs of torque from 2-4k rpm and tapering back into the stock torque curve around 6k. I think it was on the old site before the crash where I saw the dyno charts. I'm going from memory but I'm very sure of the 10-12 ft/lb part.
I had about 500 miles on my '09 before I pulled the flies. The rest of the bike was stock for the couple weeks it took me to order a PCV. The difference in low end torque and throttle response is significant even before the PCV, though the PCV did help even more.
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I have a question on PCV. When you buy one, does it already come loaded with the map you need for flies out? Or does it have to be tuned? Basically, how do you get the correct map loaded? Sorry - new to such fuel management.
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I have a question on PCV. When you buy one, does it already come loaded with the map you need for flies out? Or does it have to be tuned? Basically, how do you get the correct map loaded? Sorry - new to such fuel management.
Contact these guys, let em know what ya have and they will ship with correct MAP already loaded.
http://www.fuelmotousa.com/ (http://www.fuelmotousa.com/)
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I have a question on PCV. When you buy one, does it already come loaded with the map you need for flies out? Or does it have to be tuned? Basically, how do you get the correct map loaded? Sorry - new to such fuel management.
If you order your PCV from Fuel Moto ( http://www.fuelmotousa.com/ (http://www.fuelmotousa.com/) ) it will come loaded with the appropriate map for your bike. There are also a few generic maps on the dynojet website for different modifications or people can share their custom tunes with each other.
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Awesome. Thanks guys. After reading this thread, I am contemplating pulling the flies. Not to get more power - the C14 already has enough thank goodness. But just the fact that at low - mid rpm it will be at a better power band (correct me if I am wrong please). Normally I find myself sitting at 2500 - 3000 cruising down the highway. Occasionally touching 4000 when passing. I really have not seen how it feels past 6000 rpm....sheesh....kinda embarrassing to say that. Unfortunately, like someone said, my governor is in the back seat 99% of the time. It would be nice to put the bike on a better power band at those rpms.
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Barry,
My question isn't regarding a C14 with mods vs stock, it's only in regards to pulling the flies if the bike has the mods done to it.
I know that a C14 with full system, filter, and PCV will put out more power etc than a stock one. :nuts:
My question is the difference between a C14 with a full system, filter, and PCV vs. full system, filter, PCV, and flies pulled...
Reading is fundamental... I was responding in part to some of the "why mod it it is sooooo fast already" comments. Sorry for the confusion.
Mo Betta' Bottom End.... a flys in/flys out dyno chart would be nice.
Barry
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I purchased my 08 C14 used with a 2 Bros Slip on. I liked the sound, but could tell that it didn't have the bottom end power that the stock muffler provided. I pulled the flies and added the PCV and it became a new bike. Better bottom end and ran a lot smoother (due to the PCV). I believe the PCV would be worth it's money even on a stock set up.
I recently upgraded to the Area P full exhaust & new map, and it feels like a new bike again, pulling noticeably stronger from around 5,000 on up to the limiter. This set up is very smooth, and the power-band is just incredible. I also increased my MPG by 5 MPG (43 increased to 48).
I had the opportunity to drop it on a Dyno last weekend and it ran just what the Area P site claims (147.7) HP which is roughly 19 HP over stock (stock C14 runs 128 hp) and the torque increase is totally sick.
With your set up, I would consider adding the PCV first. With the right map for your slip on, you should pick up additional HP, it will run even smoother, and you will probably get better MPG. You can then remove the flies if you want more low end torque and you can always put them back in.
So I know many of you have pulled your flies, I still have not but am currently only running a slip-on.
I'd like to hear some concrete facts on pro's and con's of doing this... ??? :o :-\
Does it make more hp? More torque? Less? Smoother? Harsher? (sp?) Only do with full system? Do not do with stock config? MPG? Remap required? etc, etc, etc...
I'd like to hear both sides of the fence on this...
I'm currently considering going to a full system with PCV and filter, I spoke with my shop today and they recommended not pulling the flies, they said doing it wouldn't produce anymore power, but would make it run more "rough/harsh"...
I'm confused. :-\
Thanks in advance! Oh, and yes I already looked through all the threads with the search feature, seems to only be pro's from people that do it (kinda broad statements like "yes, do it", etc), not much from folks saying don't because... :(
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'08, No-flies, Area-P can, PCV, stock filter.
I have had some time on a stock '09 and I can speak to the differences between 2-4,500 rpm. Stock is restricted and smoooooth, sedate even. The modded engines are allowed to make all power available and at lower rpms that does translate to bigger power pulses through the powertrain and contact patches. If you or perhaps more importantly, your co-pilot get freaked when riding in the rain or on brand new rubber, then keeping the flies is a good idea. If you value the visceral amplification of having to master your throttle inputs to keep your adrenalin flowing but your hide(s) intact, then lose the flies. We all bought Connies not Wings, so clearly we value manueverability and power over comfort and boredom. Personally, I live and ride in (mostly) 60 mph and under land. Having the flies out means the opportunity for full-rip first gear runs to redline that are stress-relieving and don't result in attention from the man. The flies take too much out of the bottom and midrange. That makes the perfect (front wheel skimming) launch too hard to nail without a lot of work.
It's a personal and totally reversible decision. Try it you'll like it....
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Well as it stands right now I'm leaning towards leaving them in, at least for a little while...
Here's my logic, tell me if I'm misunderstanding anything...
1.) The one comment that seems to be consistent on here so far is that removing them only adds grunt/torque at the lower rpm's. When I'm at lower rpm's I'm usually just tootn' around, commuting, or have mama on the back. For that type of riding maybe smoother with them in is better for me.
2.) When I'm getting on it in the twisties I am usually always playing in the higher rpm's, I don't come into or out of turns a 3k rpm's, from what folks are saying removing them will have zero effect on the higher rpm's torque.
3.) I currently have a slip-on, so I know what that feels like and what power it makes on the dyno. I just ordered a full system, PCV, and K&N, so I want to see what that difference is alone with those on my Connie before removing the flies, if I remove the flies at the same time as doing the other mods there is no way to tell if they had any affect or not.
4.) I can always down the road then decide to remove the flies and be able to truly compare the difference running with or without them.
5.) As many folks that I've talked to about removing them it's split on doing it vs not, 50/50 is not enough for me to jump in, for now...
So what do you think, sound logic?? :-\
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If you really want to 'split the difference', just take the 'flies out of throttle bodies 1 and 3. That will leave 2 and 4 stock and yield a nice, 'middle of the road' solution.
Brian
Well as it stands right now I'm leaning towards leaving them in, at least for a little while...
Here's my logic, tell me if I'm misunderstanding anything...
<snipped some logic>
5.) As many folks that I've talked to about removing them it's split on doing it vs not, 50/50 is not enough for me to jump in, for now...
So what do you think, sound logic?? :-\
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ZG: Your first priority was clearly the most important. Happy wife, happy life...
You seem to have a good grasp of how you want and need to use your bike. If I were in your saddle I'd leave them alone and post my feedback on the differences between the full AreaP and a slipon after a few tanks. I may want that too.
Enjoy.
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ZG: Your first priority was clearly the most important. Happy wife, happy life...
You seem to have a good grasp of how you want and need to use your bike. If I were in your saddle I'd leave them alone and post my feedback on the differences between the full AreaP and a slipon after a few tanks. I may want that too.
Enjoy.
Thanks NDCguy.
The full system I just ordered is a full Muzzys dual system, not the AP system...
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ZG
Yes,
I think a lot of people would be interested in the findings. Usually if going full exhaust route, everyone pulls the flies.
I know I am interested in what you find.
BTW, when I pulled the flies, I didn't notice the "snatchy" or abrupt power on/off that a lot seem to get. I ride 2 up 25% of the time.
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Ok guys, sorry but I guess I will not have the will power to be the Sherlok Holmes to this ongoing debate after all... (http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/SmileySuicide.gif)
All my parts are now arrived (full Muzzys dual carbon fiber, PCV, K&N) and I dropped my bike off today for install, at the last minute I changed my mind and decided to just have them pull the flies while they have it all apart... (http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/smiley_dunno.gif)
I know, I know, many of you wanted to see the before and after dyno results of the flies piece to this equation, I'm sorry... (http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/smiley_smackbottom.gif)
I just got off the phone with my shop, so far they have removed all the body work, pulled the flies, plugged the air injection and were in the process of the dual Muzzys install... ;D
Tomorrow they'll install and map the PCV and I get to pick her up, can't wait!! (http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/wait.gif)
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I believe you'll find the setup to be truly awesume.
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ZG,
You will have a smile from ear to ear when you stretch it out and let the big dog eat.
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BDF, your quote (emphasis mine)
"I personally don't look at removing the 'flies as a performance mod. as much as simply removing the factory supplied 'governor'. The bike acts exactly like a 1400 cc motorcycle should once the 'flies are removed; it is not a beast or unmanageable or anything similar but again, it is a big bike with a big, relatively powerful engine. "
Brian
Can you elaborate on what you mean by the "factory supplied governor"? I wasn't aware the Connie had something like that on it.
Thanks.
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BDF, your quote (emphasis mine)
Can you elaborate on what you mean by the "factory supplied governor"? I wasn't aware the Connie had something like that on it.
Thanks.
More like a restrictor, kinda like the Boston Strangler. Chokes off how much air flows through the throttle bodies at lower rpms.
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The more air you can pump the more power you can make.
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The secondary throttle plates, or secondary butterflies, or 'flies'. They govern the max. throttle opening on a C-14 and are controlled by the ECU. You may choose to open the throttle to whatever setting you want but the 'other' set of throttle plates (the 'flies') will actually control engine torque and therefore power. The 'flies seem to open fully at very large throttle (your throttle) openings at some engine speed around 7K RPM. At low to mid- range engine speeds, the ECU actually controls the throttle. Removing them restores the bike and allows it to act like a 1400 cc motorcycle.
For more info. on this, do a search for "flies", secondaries and similar. There is a lot of information out there about what they are, what they do and how to remove them should you choose to do so.
Brian
BDF, your quote (emphasis mine)
Can you elaborate on what you mean by the "factory supplied governor"? I wasn't aware the Connie had something like that on it.
Thanks.
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The secondary throttle plates, or secondary butterflies, or 'flies'. They govern the max. throttle opening on a C-14 and are controlled by the ECU. You may choose to open the throttle to whatever setting you want but the 'other' set of throttle plates (the 'flies') will actually control engine torque and therefore power. The 'flies seem to open fully at very large throttle (your throttle) openings at some engine speed around 7K RPM. At low to mid- range engine speeds, the ECU actually controls the throttle. Removing them restores the bike and allows it to act like a 1400 cc motorcycle.
For more info. on this, do a search for "flies", secondaries and similar. There is a lot of information out there about what they are, what they do and how to remove them should you choose to do so.
Brian
Ok thanks for that. My bike had a "fliedectomy" a year ago and I have swapped the C-14 TB for a Z-14 TB a few months back. Also I have full dual Muzzys exhaust and the PCV with Autotune.
Given the amount of theological debate on flies and the role of the PCV on the ECU reflash threads, I'm hoping to log my AFR, have ECU reflashed, and reinstall flies - eventually. However at the moment my wallet is committed to other things lol, and the current mods give me good fuel economy while feeling like the bike's engine has been unleashed a bit.
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I am just learning about this bike a bit. Only 600 miles on mine so far.
What kind of $$$ are we talking for a slip-on, PCV and pulling the flies, I would be doing the install myself so no labor cost involved? I looked at fuelMoto site but only found listings and no pricing there.
Matt
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I am just learning about this bike a bit. Only 600 miles on mine so far.
What kind of $$$ are we talking for a slip-on, PCV and pulling the flies, I would be doing the install myself so no labor cost involved? I looked at fuelMoto site but only found listings and no pricing there.
Matt
Slip on- $300-$500
PCV- $279 from fuel moto with a map for your setup
Pulling the flies- FREE!
IMO you could get alot more bang for your buck if you spend a little more ($800) and get the whole AreaP exhaust. That is gonna be my next move. More power and an awesome sound, but my chopped stocker is working just fine for me until I can convince my wife that the AreaP is a necessity. ;D
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I would have to say pulling the flies was the best modification for performance I've done. No cost and much better bottom end and mid range. Wish I'd done it sooner.
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For that kind of cash, mine will stay stock for a while yet. I would really like the bike to sound like it has a little HP but 300-500 bucks for a little noise is too much for this poor old man. I would love to get some more of that low end grunt but don't want to risk hurting anything just pulling the flies without any supporting mods.
Matt
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For the cost of the slip-on you can have you bike ECU flashed which is equal to and better than pulling the flies and adding a PC. Search the forum for details.
I just finished a 250 mile ride this morning with the Guhl Motors Flash....and I'm loving it.
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For the cost of the slip-on you can have you bike ECU flashed which is equal to and better than pulling the flies and adding a PC. Search the forum for details.
I just finished a 250 mile ride this morning with the Guhl Motors Flash....and I'm loving it.
+1 on this recommendation ... this is the route i plan on going once i get around to it.
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have you bike ECU flashed which is equal to and better than pulling the flies and adding a PC.
debateable.
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Slip on- $300-$500
PCV- $279 from fuel moto with a map for your setup
Pulling the flies- FREE!
IMO you could get alot more bang for your buck if you spend a little more ($800) and get the whole AreaP exhaust. That is gonna be my next move. More power and an awesome sound, but my chopped stocker is working just fine for me until I can convince my wife that the AreaP is a necessity. ;D
Whoa Money-bags! $800 is a little more! The difference between the full exhaust and the slip-on from Area P is not worth $800 "IN MY OPINION". Someone should start a thread to post HP and torque numbers for the full and slip-on. When I spoke with Jamie, at fuelmoto, about my setup, he said your looking at maybe 4 to 5 more HP with the full system at best. That is not a quote, but what I seem to remember him saying. I am very satisfied with my slip-on...for the money. If I had wanted to BURN another 800, I would have bought the full too. Once again, the Area P slip on is awesome on my bike.
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Whoa Money-bags! $800 is a little more! The difference between the full exhaust and the slip-on from Area P is not worth $800 "IN MY OPINION". Someone should start a thread to post HP and torque numbers for the full and slip-on. When I spoke with Jamie, at fuelmoto, about my setup, he said your looking at maybe 4 to 5 more HP with the full system at best. That is not a quote, but what I seem to remember him saying. I am very satisfied with my slip-on...for the money. If I had wanted to BURN another 800, I would have bought the full too. Once again, the Area P slip on is awesome on my bike.
Well, it is more the 4-5 HP, check out his graph, and yes, I know, he's selling a product and he would post the best numbers, but, my own non dynoed seat of the pants is considerably more then the 4-5HP. IMO the full was worth every penny in several differant ways, less heat from the catless headers, better MPG, more power, looks better, and sounds great, purs like a kitten till ya twist the noise maker. Also if requested comes ready to plumb the Auto tune.
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I gained 14 hp going from a slip-on with the stock header to a full system... :)
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I gained 14 hp going from a slip-on with the stock header to a full system... :)
Wow! What shop does your service for you ZG?
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Wow! What shop does your service for you ZG?
Hillsboro Motosport does my service work, EDR Performance does my dyno tuning.
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Hillsboro Motosport does my service work, EDR Performance does my dyno tuning.
Are you in Oregon? I always thought you lived somewhere in WA...
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Rob, you live in Silverdale, right? I'm in Port Orchard, we'll have to get together and you can try out my '08 with full system, sans flies, PCV and Auto Tune. Just have yer account in order, methinks you'll be convinced to do the full monty. I still have a slight lean condition/mild stumble at about 2850, disappears at 3k, kinda annoying and I'm sneaking up on the AFR to fix it, but it's bow season ;)
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If your not to tired after work some night maybe we can shoot up to North Kitsap or Mason or whatever, my wife may let me get away sometime. :) I would love to get together with some other C14/C10 guys for a ride one of these weekends.
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Are you in Oregon? I always thought you lived somewhere in WA...
Yes, I'm in Oregon.
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Whoa Money-bags! $800 is a little more! The difference between the full exhaust and the slip-on from Area P is not worth $800 "IN MY OPINION". Someone should start a thread to post HP and torque numbers for the full and slip-on. When I spoke with Jamie, at fuelmoto, about my setup, he said your looking at maybe 4 to 5 more HP with the full system at best. That is not a quote, but what I seem to remember him saying. I am very satisfied with my slip-on...for the money. If I had wanted to BURN another 800, I would have bought the full too. Once again, the Area P slip on is awesome on my bike.
Me...... Money bags? I don't think so, I am probably one of the cheaper guys around here as far as money spent on my bike and farkles. I was saying that the exhaust was $800, not $800 additional over the price of a slip-on. So it is actually only double the price of a slip on and the gain is much more than just noise. That is about all a slip-on is good for on a C-14 from my research. So if you go by hp per dollar, a slip on is much more expensive than the AreaP.
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Whoa Money-bags! $800 is a little more! The difference between the full exhaust and the slip-on from Area P is not worth $800 "IN MY OPINION".
Have you ever looked at the collector bikes on the C14? Give them a look. Then, go
look at the size of collectors on just about any 1000cc bike- you'll notice that stock C14 collector pipes are tiny. Pipe size should go up with engine size and the collector pipes on the c14 are similar to the size on my old GS550. Now, I am sure many are happy with their slip on can. It looks pretty and the sound might impress some. But as for performance, get real! The stock collector pipes are restrictive and will limit power. I see no reason to pay money to buy muffler slop on bling when the collector pipes are smaller than on my GSX 1100F!
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If your not to tired after work some night maybe we can shoot up to North Kitsap or Mason or whatever, my wife may let me get away sometime. :) I would love to get together with some other C14/C10 guys for a ride one of these weekends.
Youve got a PM!
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Have you ever looked at the collector bikes on the C14? Give them a look. Then, go look at the size of collectors on just about any 1000cc bike- you'll notice that stock C14 collector pipes are tiny. Pipe size should go up with engine size and the collector pipes on the c14 are similar to the size on my old GS550. Now, I am sure many are happy with their slip on can. It looks pretty and the sound might impress some. But as for performance, get real! The stock collector pipes are restrictive and will limit power. I see no reason to pay money to buy muffler slop on bling when the collector pipes are smaller than on my GSX 1100F!
+1 on the "get real!" part.
When I decided to get a slip on (I got a Remus Hexacone, BTW) I knew perfectly what I was getting: fantastic sound (to my taste), beautiful looks (to my taste), 10 pounds lighter than the stock, and... ahem... 0.3 HP (yeap, that's less than half HP) gain, according to Remus webpage, which is supposed to be manufacturer-optimistic. I get more performance gain from wearing thinner socks.
Still, I'll do it again. 8)
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Me...... Money bags? I don't think so, I am probably one of the cheaper guys around here as far as money spent on my bike and farkles. I was saying that the exhaust was $800, not $800 additional over the price of a slip-on. So it is actually only double the price of a slip on and the gain is much more than just noise. That is about all a slip-on is good for on a C-14 from my research. So if you go by hp per dollar, a slip on is much more expensive than the AreaP.
Maybe your right, I definitely misread something...
Youve got a PM!
I'll definitely get back to you, kitchen remodel project in full swing right now....
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Have you ever looked at the collector bikes on the C14? Give them a look. Then, go
look at the size of collectors on just about any 1000cc bike- you'll notice that stock C14 collector pipes are tiny. Pipe size should go up with engine size and the collector pipes on the c14 are similar to the size on my old GS550. Now, I am sure many are happy with their slip on can. It looks pretty and the sound might impress some. But as for performance, get real! The stock collector pipes are restrictive and will limit power. I see no reason to pay money to buy muffler slop on bling when the collector pipes are smaller than on my GSX 1100F!
Yep. I've posted it before in other threads, but here's a pic I took of the stock C14 header (on the right) vs the Area P header (left). Huge difference in diameter, and in performance.
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn258/gearhead82_bucket/IMG_1495.jpg)
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Damn ... that IS a big difference!
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Damn ... that IS a big difference!
Yep, you gotta uncork this beast for real power! :thumbs: