Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: CigarSki® on October 21, 2014, 05:46:50 PM
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Currently 35k miles on the bike. I suppose that all mechanical assemblies will eventually require some manner of repair.
Was out for a ride on Sunday and noticed some oil on the rear wheel. It was just a few drops, but definitely gear oil. At the end of the ride, the wheel was completely streaked with oil.
I drained and filled about 2K miles ago. I do it every oil change and am positive that it was not over filled. Did a ride to West Virginia a few weeks back, 1350 miles with no sign of a leak.
Appt. made with the local dealer to have it checked out. The winter riding season is about to begin, need to get back on the road. Luckily my extended warranty still has a couple of years left. :)
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Yup, BTDT. Had a leaky rear diff on my 2008 C14.
Turned out to be the smaller inner seal. No warranty, so I changed it myself and it was fine afterwards.
It's a bit of a bear to get into and service, but if you have warranty, then it's a non-issue.
Oh...mine failed while on a trip, and I rode the bike another 2500 miles or so with the rear diff leaking and spraying all over the back wheel...lol.
If you're not livin' on the edge, you're just takin' up space, right??...lol.
Rem :o
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Were you losing enough you had to refill often?
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Were you losing enough you had to refill often?
No...I had to top it up a couple times, but not that much. I checked it every night, and tried to keep the wheel clean, etc.
However, it doesn't take very much to make an awful mess. My rear rim was covered, as was half the tire, the rear fender, and the back half of the left side case. With the bike on the side stand, it would drip and leave a spot about the side of a quarter or so over night.
Rem
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Yeah, that happens now and then on this model. No big deal and it is most probably the inner seal like Rem had fail. You might want to ask the dealer to order an inner bearing though- the seal is behind the bearing and removing the bearing generally damages them; better to have both parts on hand when doing this job IMO.
Brian
Currently 35k miles on the bike. I suppose that all mechanical assemblies will eventually require some manner of repair.
Was out for a ride on Sunday and noticed some oil on the rear wheel. It was just a few drops, but definitely gear oil. At the end of the ride, the wheel was completely streaked with oil.
I drained and filled about 2K miles ago. I do it every oil change and am positive that it was not over filled. Did a ride to West Virginia a few weeks back, 1350 miles with no sign of a leak.
Appt. made with the local dealer to have it checked out. The winter riding season is about to begin, need to get back on the road. Luckily my extended warranty still has a couple of years left. :)
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Yeah, that happens now and then on this model. No big deal and it is most probably the inner seal like Rem had fail. You might want to ask the dealer to order an inner bearing though- the seal is behind the bearing and removing the bearing generally damages them; better to have both parts on hand when doing this job IMO.
Brian
Yes, and the Service Manual says the needle bearings MUST be replaced when you service the rear drive. Make sure they do it right.
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Yup...I ruined the bearing in mine while removing it...
I'm not sure how you'd get it out without damaging it...unless you took the final drive completely off the bike and had some fancy fitted attachments for a hydraulic press. It's been a few years since I did it, but I do recall that bearing being a bugger to remove.
I also changed the large outer lip seal (the one closest to the spline drive), it's not difficult at all.
Rem
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Yup...I ruined the bearing in mine while removing it...
I'm not sure how you'd get it out without damaging it...unless you took the final drive completely off the bike and had some fancy fitted attachments for a hydraulic press. It's been a few years since I did it, but I do recall that bearing being a bugger to remove.
I also changed the large outer lip seal (the one closest to the spline drive), it's not difficult at all.
Rem
Did you use the "hot oil bath" method as mentioned in the service manual or something else?
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Did you use the "hot oil bath" method as mentioned in the service manual or something else?
I had the service manual for that bike, but to be honest I don't recall looking at the procedure at the time.
I removed the bearing using a couple different brass drifts. You have to access it from the outside (left hand side of the bike), and tap it out towards the wheel side. I did it with the final drive still on the bike, but with the bike on a lift. It takes a while, tapping the bearing repeatedly around it's perimeter.
I left for a two week 8500 mile trip a week later, and rode the bike for two more seasons and never had a problem again.
Leave it to me to go and do something and find out later that there's actually a "procedure" for doing it...lol.
Rem
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I figured the seal is pressed in and is supposed to be really tight. But I suspect their main concern is damaging the housing.
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I figured the seal is pressed in and is supposed to be really tight. But I suspect their main concern is damaging the housing.
Yup, they're just standard lip seals, with a very light press fit. Lip seal fits are usually too tight to install by hand, but soft as butter with a rubber mallet to "persuade" them into place.
Yes, I'm sure damaging the housing would be a concern, but the problem is that the bearing is installed in what is almost considered to be a blind hole. It's difficult to access from the outside. If it was easy to reach, you could make a bearing press very easily with a length of threaded rod and a couple sockets/sleeves.
Rem
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Yeah, you should have seen the mechanics and service manager's faces when they read that one. Sort of like a bad joke: like most shops (if any?) have an oil bath, heated to what, 350F or something, large enough to take a C-14 final drive, just lying around. Oh yeah, a pretty common thing to have at a motorcycle shop. ::) Sometimes I think the manual makes more sense when we simply cannot read it at all.... :-)
So now, back to reality: the way to pull the larger seal is by using Sheet Rock screws. A gentle tap on the screw, with the tip right in the center of the sheet metal "U" that mounts (Easy Boys!) the lip seal and a few turns and the screws will grab onto the seal body. Then a small block of wood on the drive and something to pry on the head of the screw and the seal pops right out.
But it is not usually the outer seal that leaks, it is the inner one.
And the bearing, yeah, the normal way is to drive it out from the other side (the outside) with a drift. It ain't pretty, and it ain't fast, and the user MUST be careful but it works. Hard on the bearing though, which is why a new one is recommended.
Brian
Did you use the "hot oil bath" method as mentioned in the service manual or something else?
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Sort of like a bad joke: like most shops (if any?) have an oil bath, heated to what, 350F or something, large enough to take a C-14 final drive, just lying around. Oh yeah, a pretty common thing to have at a motorcycle shop. ::) Sometimes I think the manual makes more sense when we simply cannot read it at all.... :-)
You could always go to a fast food restaurant...but you'd have to actually go inside, and not use the drive-thru.
If you timed it right, you could get lunch while you're there, right?
C14 Final Drive flavored fries?....Or clams for you eh BDF?...lol.
Rem 8)
(http://images.publicradio.org/content/2008/04/16/20080416_frenchfries_33.jpg)
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Yes but all the customers afterward would be saying "These fries taste like.... I don' t know, maybe rear- end?" :o
Brian
You could always go to a fast food restaurant...but you'd have to actually go inside, and not use the drive-thru.
If you timed it right, you could get lunch while you're there, right?
C14 Final Drive flavored fries?....Or clams for you eh BDF?...lol.
Rem 8)
(http://images.publicradio.org/content/2008/04/16/20080416_frenchfries_33.jpg)
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Maybe use this? http://www.revzilla.com/product/motion-pro-bearing-remover-set (http://www.revzilla.com/product/motion-pro-bearing-remover-set)
As mentioned here: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=17311.msg211961#msg211961 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=17311.msg211961#msg211961)
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If it's under any kind of warranty, then let the dealer handle it.
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That's what I'll be doing. The dealer can have it for a bit.
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That's what I'll be doing. The dealer can have it for a bit.
That would certainly be my vote too, if it were happening to me (plus, I plan on keeping a warranty as long as they will continue to renew). But it is nice to know what is involved and making sure they get the needed parts BEFORE you leave the bike stuck there.
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Maybe use this? http://www.revzilla.com/product/motion-pro-bearing-remover-set (http://www.revzilla.com/product/motion-pro-bearing-remover-set)
As mentioned here: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=17311.msg211961#msg211961 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=17311.msg211961#msg211961)
That type of puller will not work on needle bearings, but they are good for bearings with an inner race that you cannot get "behind" to drive out, like wheel bearings.
If you try to use a blind hole bearing puller on a needle bearing it will very quickly make the job aggravatingly worse. I've tried them on difficult to remove swingarm pivot bearings, and all the puller does is rip all the needles out and leave you with a thin outer race...which is much more difficult to remove than the complete bearing.
Rem :o
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Rode to the dealer his afternoon, the leak got worse on the way there. Tire and wheel got messy. On a good note, the Kawasaki Rep. will be there to look at another bike and they are going to throw mine into the fray. Might get a quicker warranty service authorization.
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Shouldn't be any thought about it. You've got the extended warranty. It should be covered completely with no questions.
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After the repair is done remove the large c clip and take the plate off of the inside of the rear rim where the rubber cushions are. The wheel will capture and store some of the lube and it will slowly leak out more gear lube onto the rim. The dealer didn't do that so when I went back with a leak after they resealed it Kawasaki had them give me a new differential to cure the leak because it is still under warranty. It still had a leak after the new differential was installed so I pulled the wheel myself and found about 2 ounces of oil in the rear wheel, I cleaned it out and problem solved. I hate going to the dealer! It also took them 3 trips to the dealer to program in new passive FOB's, they let me do it myself and show them how to do it on the third trip in so I got that done for free. They should have paid me to do it.
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UPDATE.
Got the bike back today, and, I have an oil free wheel and tire. Glad that I got the extended warranty.
Part replaced:
92033-1074, Snap Ring
92046-1169, Needle Bearing
92049-1025, Oil Seal
92049-1280, Oil Seal
92055-3771, O-Ring
Smaller inner seal and larger outer seal replaced. Dealer stated that it was the larger of the two that was leaking, but replaced both.
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Smaller inner seal and larger outer seal replaced. Dealer stated that it was the larger of the two that was leaking, but replaced both.
Yeah, it would be crazy to have it all apart and not replace an old rubber seal.
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On the BMW sites they'd be screaming, "ANOTHER FINAL DRIVE FAILURE."
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Well, a couple of random thoughts about that.
1) this is not a drive failure, it is a leak. When mine developed the same leak some years ago, I taped a paper towel 'band' around the joint and kept riding until the dealer had the parts and was able to get the bike in for repair. They literally changed the seals and bearing while I waited. This is quite different than the BMW drives failing mechanically and stopping the bike from being ridden.
2) KiPass weeds out the 'faint of heart' long before a final drive leak. Wayne (Cigarski) has been around long enough to be tough and not a hand- wringing 'Mary Jane Tinklepants'. He got it fixed and moved forward with the rest of his life.
3) Japanese motorcycle owners tend to be much more realistic than BMW owners. I say that as a member- in- good- standing of a BMW group because I have found it to be true. Japanese bike riders simply do not use or look for any Kool Aid and <more or less> accept the world as it is. Again, look at Wayne: he was not ridiculously emotional about this, got it fixed under warranty and will move forward.
4) So far Kawasaki final drives simply leak; they do not seize or catch on fire. That really helps owners / riders deal with the issue in a calmer manner.
All with tongue firmly in cheek of course. ;D
Brian
On the BMW sites they'd be screaming, "ANOTHER FINAL DRIVE FAILURE."
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LOL!
As a bonus, they did a pretty decent job of cleaning that nasty looking rear wheel. Winter salt has not been kind to it.
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Where is the leaking oil from? Is it the final drive itself (the reservoir that is slotted and requires a special tool, or a quarter held by a pair of pliers)?
(http://dolomoto.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Concours-14-pics/i-ft63QZp/0/L/IMG_3506-L.jpg)
(http://dolomoto.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Concours-14-pics/i-qwB3fMS/0/L/IMG_3505-L.jpg)
My FD was full (I changed it anyway).
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One more example of the exchange on our monies, you use a quarter and I have to use a twonie . ;D
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Maybe use this? http://www.revzilla.com/product/motion-pro-bearing-remover-set (http://www.revzilla.com/product/motion-pro-bearing-remover-set)
As mentioned here: http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=17311.msg211961#msg211961 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=17311.msg211961#msg211961)
^^^that product rocks!!!
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Dolomoto.
The dealer said that the larger of the two seals was leaking, but replaced both.
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Hi all,
Sorry if I missed a post that covers this. Bike has 340 miles on it. Bought new with 3. I am breaking it in out on country roads and I notice this on my Back rim. It seems like the final drive is seeping. Is this normal for these bikes? Thanks for the help.
(https://scontent-2.2914.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10906146_10205503892014456_8214174649992952727_n.jpg?oh=2823a902140fa304a1b59d4115acbad3&oe=556D401D)
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Hi all,
Sorry if I missed a post that covers this. Bike has 340 miles on it. Bought new with 3. I am breaking it in out on country roads and I notice this on my Back rim. It seems like the final drive is seeping. Is this normal for these bikes? Thanks for the help.
No, it is not normal. And certainly extremely rare when new. Mine has never leaked. They will leak when they are overfilled, however.... and if the dealer improperly overfilled it, then that would explain it. You can either check and adjust the level yourself, or take it back to the dealer (which is what I would do) and have them fix it under warranty.
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It seems like the final drive is seeping. Is this normal for these bikes?
My new 2015 also had a greasy rear wheel. Not as bad as yours, but only rode it home for 35 miles. It could very well be leftover from assembly, or dealer spilled fluid and didn't clean up. You can't really overfill it on this bike... unless you do it on purpose, since fluid leaks out of the hole. I'm not going to worry about it for now. Just clean the wheel, check that fluid level is fine, change the FD oil when you change the engine oil, and keep an eye on fluid level at the SAME EXACT spot (on centerstand) if you keep seeing that. If fluid drops, then you'd have a leaky seal for sure. But my guess is our seals will be just fine. Need to research which fluid to use; I want a fully-synthetic one, since there's very little of it in there. And will change it at every oil change (cheap insurance). Hope this helps.
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The final drive is easily overfilled if you rotate the wheel as you're filling.
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You can't really overfill it on this bike... unless you do it on purpose, since fluid leaks out of the hole.
It can be overfilled, but it is not terribly easy since it is generally designed not to be :) If the bike is not level- that would be the major cause. Of course, if you were to do it on the side stand, it would be underfilled, so it would be mostly only an issue if it were on a center stand or other centering stand but yet the ground it is on was not level. You can also turn the wheel while filling, which is another no-no, because the thick "oil" will cling to the rotating parts, causing an overfill condition. Or if you spin the wheel BEFORE filling and have not given it adequate time for the oil to settle.
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It is VERY clearly spelled in the manual NOT to rotate the rear wheel while filling. That's why I said the only way to overfill (or underfill) the final drive is on purpose. Or if you just don't know what you're doing. Having said that, once a seal leaks, there's no going back; it needs to be replaced. My point is there's no need to jump to conclusions right away if the FD wasn't overfilled; just clean the wheel, check fluid level, and keep watching both. No harm at all. I wouldn't want a dealer taking my brand new bike apart without being sure it needs to. At any rate, my final drive is not overfilled, so I'm not worried about a seal issue at the moment. But the fluid looks like molasses, so will definitely replace it at the first oil change. Have a good one.
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My new 2015 also had a greasy rear wheel. Not as bad as yours, but only rode it home for 35 miles. It could very well be leftover from assembly, or dealer spilled fluid and didn't clean up. You can't really overfill it on this bike... unless you do it on purpose, since fluid leaks out of the hole. I'm not going to worry about it for now. Just clean the wheel, check that fluid level is fine, change the FD oil when you change the engine oil, and keep an eye on fluid level at the SAME EXACT spot (on centerstand) if you keep seeing that. If fluid drops, then you'd have a leaky seal for sure. But my guess is our seals will be just fine. Need to research which fluid to use; I want a fully-synthetic one, since there's very little of it in there. And will change it at every oil change (cheap insurance). Hope this helps.
Changing the final drive fluid every 5,000 miles is way overkill IMHO once the initial change is done at 600 miles. I do mine every 10,000 with synthetic Valvoline. When filling on center stand, make sure not to fill to the top of bolt threads- leave a little below and it will never leak.
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Changing the final drive fluid every 5,000 miles is way overkill IMHO once the initial change is done at 600 miles. I do mine every 10,000 with synthetic Valvoline. When filling on center stand, make sure not to fill to the top of bolt threads- leave a little below and it will never leak.
It may or may not need changing at every engine oil change but it's SO easy to change and it doesn't take much gear oil to fill it up, why not do it? You have to do something, besides drinking a beer, while you wait for the engine oil to drain right?
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It may or may not need changing at every engine oil change but it's SO easy to change and it doesn't take much gear oil to fill it up, why not do it? You have to do something, besides drinking a beer, while you wait for the engine oil to drain right?
+1
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definitely not as important as a charged FOB battery (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/avatars/lol8.gif)
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Imagine what could be accomplished by hooking a KIPASS FOB directly to the power grid. ;D
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Wasn't that Nicolai Tesla's plan?
Imagine what could be accomplished by hooking a KIPASS FOB directly to the power grid. ;D
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Wasn't that Nicolai Tesla's plan?
Its playing out well ;D
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No, it is not normal. And certainly extremely rare when new. Mine has never leaked. They will leak when they are overfilled, however.... and if the dealer improperly overfilled it, then that would explain it. You can either check and adjust the level yourself, or take it back to the dealer (which is what I would do) and have them fix it under warranty.
+1. Take it back to the dealer.
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Hi all,
Sorry if I missed a post that covers this. Bike has 340 miles on it. Bought new with 3. I am breaking it in out on country roads and I notice this on my Back rim. It seems like the final drive is seeping. Is this normal for these bikes? Thanks for the help.
(https://scontent-2.2914.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10906146_10205503892014456_8214174649992952727_n.jpg?oh=2823a902140fa304a1b59d4115acbad3&oe=556D401D)
Just as an FYI, you should not suspect a leaking final drive seal unless you're seeing gear oil drip on the ground when the bike is parked on the side stand. If the rear wheel drive splines are lubed with regular grease and/or too much regular grease, it will fling all over the rear wheel hub and rim and look like a final drive oil leak. Gear oil will make more of a uniform coating.
I've witnessed both scenarios, and there are a lot of C14's running around with improperly lubed splines, which are flinging grease all over the back wheel. If the final drive is leaking actual gear oil, it will be all over everything and will be leaking on the ground. If it's just excess (incorrect) spline lube, it will show up in little "runs" on the wheel hub, and will fling on to the rim a little bit as well.
If the final drive gear oil is overfilled a little bit, it won't hurt the seals, but it will make a mess next time you remove the fill cap and the excess oil runs out.
Rem
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That pic looks common with what I've seen on an overzealous lube of the splines, especially because of the silvery color, moly grease looks like that...
On all the units that I've seen with actual seal issues, you will see it dripping at the bottom of the housing, and it won't be gray/silver, but golden /yellow lube.
Easy to check though, let it sit overnight on the sidestand, pop the cap off... have rags handy, and if it overflows it had too much lube... simply suck some out using a turkey baster.... clean the rim and keep an eye on it. Next tire change clean the splines, and don't over grease them..
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Regardless of cause, it isn't normal on a bike with 340 miles on it. Take it back to the dealer and tell them to 'fix' it.
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If the final drive gear oil is overfilled a little bit, it won't hurt the seals
Very good remark Rem. I was pleasantly surprised to see the final drive vented. BMWs don't have it vented, so the slightest overfilling blows a seal. And as I said, I fully agree with you. Who wants to waste time taking a new motorcycle to a dealer without knowing they have a problem? If fluid level doesn't go down, you DO NOT have a leak. But to each his own, I guess. Have a good one folks.
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Thank you all, I will check with the dealer to see what they say. I did not know about the vent...cool