Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: baddean on August 04, 2011, 10:49:06 PM
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To the collective minds that reside here. ( I could not find this in a search).
The background first, please.
Just got home from a 3400 mile trip out west to Colorado. Bike ran great. Straight home on the slab in 100 degree temps and cruising at 80-90. Washed the beast and parked her. Next day, well:(
2008 C14 26,000 miles. Flies out. PC3. Premium gas from multiple locations. Regular oil changes. Ridden hard enough that I should not be being told what I am hearing.
Started the bike up next day and it made a noise (hiccup?) and quit. Tried to restart and nothing but crank. The electronic dash then acted up (zeroed both trip meters, lost the whole TPS screen (as in gone), imobilizer flashing fast). Cranked but no starting. OK, figured battery. 3 years old. Voltage drop when cranking (12.5 to 11.0 then 11.4). Ordered and received a Shorai and installed. Now it cranks for a while then starts. And sounds like a can of rocks being shaken. Whoa!.
To shorten this, I took it to a dealer (where I bought it and they know me). They now have the head off of it and are telling me that the combustion chambers are so carbon fouled that the pistons are hitting the fouling ( hence the banging, rattling noises) and that some of it may have broken off and gotten lodged under one of the exhaust valves and damaged it.
Now I've been around internal combustion engines since I was 12 years old and understand that carbon fouling can be a problem in many instances but..... a modern 4 stroke fuel injected engine used the way we use them??
Within 26,000 miles??
WTF??
Any ideas, no matter how radical, will sound sensible right about now.
Thanks, in advance, to the collective minds here for any input you might have.
Dean
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There may be a build- up of carbon in the head of your bike but it is not likely that it caused the sudden noise and then noisy (mechanically noisy) running. It sounds more like something like a timing chain skipping a tooth or some similar type of problem. Of course if that is what the dealer found then that is what they have to report but it does not mean it (the carbon) was the initial problem.
As gasoline does not leave much in the way of deposits, it would almost have to be motor oil causing that amount of fouling; was the bike consuming crankcase oil? Had you noticed any change in idle characteristics before the 'big noise'?
Brian
To the collective minds that reside here. ( I could not find this in a search).
The background first, please.
Just got home from a 3400 mile trip out west to Colorado. Bike ran great. Straight home on the slab in 100 degree temps and cruising at 80-90. Washed the beast and parked her. Next day, well:(
2008 C14 26,000 miles. Flies out. PC3. Premium gas from multiple locations. Regular oil changes. Ridden hard enough that I should not be being told what I am hearing.
Started the bike up next day and it made a noise (hiccup?) and quit. Tried to restart and nothing but crank. The electronic dash then acted up (zeroed both trip meters, lost the whole TPS screen (as in gone), imobilizer flashing fast). Cranked but no starting. OK, figured battery. 3 years old. Voltage drop when cranking (12.5 to 11.0 then 11.4). Ordered and received a Shorai and installed. Now it cranks for a while then starts. And sounds like a can of rocks being shaken. Whoa!.
To shorten this, I took it to a dealer (where I bought it and they know me). They now have the head off of it and are telling me that the combustion chambers are so carbon fouled that the pistons are hitting the fouling ( hence the banging, rattling noises) and that some of it may have broken off and gotten lodged under one of the exhaust valves and damaged it.
Now I've been around internal combustion engines since I was 12 years old and understand that carbon fouling can be a problem in many instances but..... a modern 4 stroke fuel injected engine used the way we use them??
Within 26,000 miles??
WTF??
Any ideas, no matter how radical, will sound sensible right about now.
Thanks, in advance, to the collective minds here for any input you might have.
Dean
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Brian,
Thanks for the reply. No oil usage at all. The engine idled and ran beautifully before this. And when was the last time you heard of a modern motorcycle engine being used normally having a timing chain skip a tooth, during startup?
After doing some research on gasoline and additives it turns out that todays gasolines do, in fact, leave a lot of deposits in the fuel system and combustion chambers due to the gas companies putting less and less additives in the fuel to meet government minimum mandates for these additives.
I found that on some of the sports car forums this carbon build up is a big problem.
Dean
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Brian,
Thanks for the reply. No oil usage at all. The engine idled and ran beautifully before this. And when was the last time you heard of a modern motorcycle engine being used normally having a timing chain skip a tooth, during startup?
After doing some research on gasoline and additives it turns out that todays gasolines do, in fact, leave a lot of deposits in the fuel system and combustion chambers due to the gas companies putting less and less additives in the fuel to meet government minimum mandates for these additives.
I found that on some of the sports car forums this carbon build up is a big problem.
Dean
That is the first I have heard that. It will be a good learning experience to all of us. Have you actually seen it with the heads off yourself yet?
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Wow....I wonder if these bikes run a bit rich as the tail pipes are always covered in soot.
Dean, do frequent the same gas company or do you mix it up a bit. I know I've had problems in vehicles running Exxon gas with carbon buildup so I stopped using them some years back. Also, have you ever used any FI cleaner in it?
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You have a PC3 installed, so presumably you are using something other than a stock map. These bikes appear to run pig rich to begin with - if you run an even richer map, that could be a problem.
Also, "premium" fuel could contribute somewhat to the problem if it's significantly greater than the specified 90 octane.
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Early Kawasaki automatic cam chain tensioners had a nasty tendency to fail to extend and allow the chain to skip one tooth (if you were lucky), and Yamaha FJRs are showing a tendency to do the same thing after racking up some miles. I am not claiming it is in any way common but that problem you have is not common either.
Building up sufficient carbon deposits to cause mechanical interference in the combustion chamber, from gasoline alone, in less than 30K miles just does not seem reasonable to me. Heavy carbon deposits usually show symptoms long before they cause the valves to strike the pistons. Again, I am not saying that that could not be your problem but it strikes me as a rather remote possibility.
Finally you said everything was fine up until a bang and the engine stopped and then the trouble started. That does not sound like a slow, progressive situation like carbon build-up but it does sound like something mechanical, such as a cam chain skipping a tooth. It isn't even that I really suspect the cam chain either, I just cannot think of anything else that would cause your sudden mechanical interference in the combustion chamber.
In direct answer to your question, yes, I have heard of modern motorcycle engines having timing chains become miss- timed. To turn it around, have you ever heard of a modern, gasoline fueled, and correctly running engine having mechanical problems due to carbon build- up?
Brian
Brian,
Thanks for the reply. No oil usage at all. The engine idled and ran beautifully before this. And when was the last time you heard of a modern motorcycle engine being used normally having a timing chain skip a tooth, during startup?
After doing some research on gasoline and additives it turns out that todays gasolines do, in fact, leave a lot of deposits in the fuel system and combustion chambers due to the gas companies putting less and less additives in the fuel to meet government minimum mandates for these additives.
I found that on some of the sports car forums this carbon build up is a big problem.
Dean
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Early Kawasaki automatic cam chain tensioners had a nasty tendency to fail to extend and allow the chain to skip one tooth (if you were lucky), and Yamaha FJRs are showing a tendency to do the same thing after racking up some miles. I am not claiming it is in any way common but that problem you have is not common either.
Building up sufficient carbon deposits to cause mechanical interference in the combustion chamber, from gasoline alone, in less than 30K miles just does not seem reasonable to me. Heavy carbon deposits usually show symptoms long before they cause the valves to strike the pistons. Again, I am not saying that that could not be your problem but it strikes me as a rather remote possibility.
+1, tensioner would be my guess to start but even then i think its rare to just jump a tooth all at once, every one I've heard of always lead up to it with noise starting softly and building up to a jump and rattling loudly. but theres a first for everything.
did you see the head yourself yet? carbon build up that bad would mean something is not right else where. I'd like to see that.
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Don't want to turn this into a "gas thread", but I always run premium to meet the 90 minimum manufacturer's recommendation. I'd rather run 89 mid-grade for the cost savings, but... ...
Anyway, I was told by a GM service manager awhile back that you should ONLY run Shell, Chevron, or Quik Trip (one of the least expensive in our area) gas in your vehicles. At the time, they were the only ones that were rated by the federal government to be "tier 1" gas. Actually, when I switched to regular grade QT gas from mid-grade Mobil and Exxon in my cage, my gas mileage went up by 8%. And that was after 55,000 miles of running the more expensive stuff.
Ok, back to the engine failure discussion... ...
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That sure sounds like a valve/piston touch scenario, and these are interference timing engines. Having been around bikes a long time I have seen the progress of cam/drive/primary chains come from "sure to fail to just about set and forget". Having said that, cam chain tensioners are more likely to cause this to happen than the chain itself. But all this is conjecture, you need a second opinion from a disinterested source BEFORE any more work is done to that engine. Unfortunately some info has been lost by dis-assembly but a "forensic analysis" will tell the tale.
While carbon buildup will certainly cause damage, that would be very easy to determine as the combustion chamber would be similarly encrusted. Also should cause pre-ignition prior to failure. That whole idea of modern fuels causing engine failure do to carbon build-up seems pretty lame to me as the industry would never tolerate widespread warranty claims because of common gasoline stocks or additives failing to meet industry standards.
Nothing special about your engine design or your use of it or the fuels that are widely available to you, if there were, we would have seen it elsewhere.
Caveat: I am not the last word or fount of all knowledge but this is my best guess and no, you can't always trust the shop.
Fretka
PS I have not imagined or worked out all the possible scenarios of VVT failure but this feature COULD cause issues such as you are experiencing.
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From left field, I wonder if the cats may be partially plugged, causing a richer then normal condition? What comes in must go out and since a stock US bike has no 02 sensor, the injectors will continue to pump the same volume, regardless of airflow. Ever see a car pumping smoke only to find out the air filter was plugged? Ever see a diesel with a dirty filter? Reduced flow results in rich conditions. Regardless, I'd sure use this as an excuse to upgrade to a full system ;D
My .02 in this game of guesses.
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The tensioners in C-14's are 'semi- hydraulic' and depend on engine oil pressure to force them outward and tension the chain. When starting they are quite loose and there is often a distinct cam chain rattle in the engine for perhaps 3 or 4 seconds until the tensioner moves. This is the time that I would suspect the cam chain would jump, if that is actually what happened. Again, pure speculation on my part.
Brian
+1, tensioner would be my guess to start but even then i think its rare to just jump a tooth all at once, every one I've heard of always lead up to it with noise starting softly and building up to a jump and rattling loudly. but theres a first for everything.
did you see the head yourself yet? carbon build up that bad would mean something is not right else where. I'd like to see that.
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Not to step on your toes, and just in the interest of accuracy: tier 1 gasoline is defined by a consortium of auto manufacturers, not any government. And Mobil Exxon fuel, at least in some areas, is a tier 1 fuel (it was not always though).
Again, just to comment, I don't think you can find bad enough fuel anywhere in the US that would allow the engine to keep running and yet build up that much carbon in less than 30K miles. The only problems that I know of that anyone has had with any C-14 that could be directly connected to fuel were clogged fuel screens in the fuel pump, and those were always caused by contaminated fuel, not just fuel that was not the best available. Put another way, all fuel available is pretty good stuff IMO.
Brian
Don't want to turn this into a "gas thread", but I always run premium to meet the 90 minimum manufacturer's recommendation. I'd rather run 89 mid-grade for the cost savings, but... ...
Anyway, I was told by a GM service manager awhile back that you should ONLY run Shell, Chevron, or Quik Trip (one of the least expensive in our area) gas in your vehicles. At the time, they were the only ones that were rated by the federal government to be "tier 1" gas. Actually, when I switched to regular grade QT gas from mid-grade Mobil and Exxon in my cage, my gas mileage went up by 8%. And that was after 55,000 miles of running the more expensive stuff.
Ok, back to the engine failure discussion... ...
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Outstanding Chet! Great idea... "Honey, I have to upgrade the exhaust, we don't want another one of those episodes, do we? It really is a safety issue in the end...."
ROFLOL
Brian
<snip>
Reduced flow results in rich conditions. Regardless, I'd sure use this as an excuse to upgrade to a full system ;D
My .02 in this game of guesses.
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Hey All,
Thanks for the replies thus far.
Went to the dealership today to see for myself and sure enough the combustion chambers are carboned up pretty badly. The number two cylinders exhaust valves are stuck open due to loose carbon bits caught under them. During a leak down test they leaked like a sieve. All intake valves are seated tightly. Two other exhaust valves are leaking very slightly which could be fairly normal or they could have some debris under them as well.
We'll know more once the valves are out of it.
I took the head to Bore Tech because Bill is a friend of mine and I trust him with the job of sorting it out.
To answer some of the other questions:
Brian,
It really wasn't a "bang' more of a loud click. So no indication of something catastrophic.
No I haven't heard of modern sportbikes having a carbon build up problem either. Neither has anyone else I know. But, now I know that it is, in fact, the current problem. Just don't know what caused it except it being fuel related.
Back in the sixties (maybe earlier) the Gov mandated that gasoline companies put additives (with a minimum standard) in their gas that would inhibit combustion chamber deposits. It didn't work very well then.
Today the gas companies still have a minimum standard but is even less (50%) than it was in the beginning, so it is even less effective now. They are now more concerned about emisions than keeping your engine clean, except that Shell seems to be attempting to address the issue in their fuels.
Cam chain, tensioner, and timing were all ok.
Mister T,
The PC3 is programmed for the flies out and stock pipe. No soot in the tail pipe and I averaged 38 MPGs for the total Colorado trip while getting an average of 43MPG on the slab alone. So no excessive fuel consumption here.
Virginia Jim,
I buy fuel at a lot of different stations because of my travels on the bike but, I do buy most of my gas at one particular station (Marathon) when I am staying around locally. I guess you could say that most of my gas is purchased there. And I do run FI cleaner through it about every 4-5000 miles just like I do on my other FI bikes. The FI cleaner, however, won't address the combustion chamber issue.
STP has come out with a product called STP Total Fuel System Cleaner that is supposed to address the intake valve and combustion chamber deposits. I figure that if STP has developed a product for this, there must be someting going on with the gasoline we are buying. Doing a search for this issue I found quite a bit of info on the problem.
The BMW M5 forum and a couple of other sports car forums that I found seem to be discussing this like it is an up and growing problem, especially among vehicles with engines that have very close tolerances and tight squish clearances (our bikes??)
Gonzo,
I will have some pics that Bill at Bore Tech will take for me (I didn't have my camera, doh!)
The dealer had already cleaned up the piston crowns, but said that some of the buildup had to chipped off as it was hard caked on the piston. Some of it came loose in little flakes.
Fretka,
Interesting that you brought up VVT failure because at some point we are going to check that out. Also there is no indication that the valves and pistons contacted one another.
Son of Pappy,
Doh!!! I haven't yet checked the air cleaner. I'll run that "full system" idea past the financial advisor. Hah!
The head should be done sometime next week and the bike back together after ??
That's about all I have for now.
Will keep you updated as to how this is going.
Dean
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This is probably out of left field ,but this thread has me wondering -maybe it would be a good idea to set up a water injection
system for my 14 .You older mechanic -type guys might remember . Just a small water tank with a hose going to a tiny orifice
placed somewhere in an engine vacuum line . An adjustment can be placed on the hose to control water volume.
This may sound like backyard hocus pocus , but it works well for carbon removal from the combustion chamber. Small amount of water is harmless ,but shines the top of the piston like new. Of course , you have to fill the tank occasionally.
Even seen the more adventurous techs pour a small stream of water directly into the carb throat- - quick clean!
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I do not believe a malfunctioning VVT could cause mechanical (piston to valve) interference. The change in timing occurs at high speed but the relative relationship between piston and crankshaft remains the same; if the valves clear the pistons at redline and max. cam advance, then they will also clear at idle or even when the engine is turned by hand while still at fill camshaft advance (assuming something is broken in the VVT control mechanism).
Greatly advanced timing will cause the engine to start and run poorly (symptoms the same as a very high overlap cam) but only due to gas flow inside the engine, not because of any mechanical problem caused by the cam timing.
Brian
<snip>
Fretka
PS I have not imagined or worked out all the possible scenarios of VVT failure but this feature COULD cause issues such as you are experiencing.
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Given that info., maybe there is nothing wrong other than excessive carbon deposits.
Your logic and facts about gasoline are all correct I believe but still, if this were a general problem we should have heard about it long before now. You do not even have a lot of mileage really (some have topped 100K miles with C-14s, and mine is coming up on 72K miles) for such accumulation. It just does not seem reasonable to me that gasoline is the root cause of your carbon problem (thinking out loud here, not trying to argue). ???
The only engines I have seen carbon excessively are small utility engines when they are used for many hours; engines are similar to 'lawn mower' engines but used to power generators or air compressors for commercial companies. The source of the carbon in those engines is motor oil, not fuel. They have lousy oil control in the cylinders, lousy crankcase vacuum control and usually horizontal cylinders with splash lubrication.
If the inside of the exhaust ports are covered with flaky carbon and / or wet with oil, it is a sign of valve stem to head clearance issues, usually a worn valve guide bushing. As you are sending the head out for rebuilding that condition should be found during inspection.
The only other thing I can think of is a batch of contaminated gasoline from a distributor. Not one tanker full but an entire storage container. That way you might have gotten quite a few loads of contaminated fuel from the same station over time. ??
This is an interesting situation. Best of luck with it and please let us know what you find out.
Brian
Hey All,
Thanks for the replies thus far.
Went to the dealership today to see for myself and sure enough the combustion chambers are carboned up pretty badly. The number two cylinders exhaust valves are stuck open due to loose carbon bits caught under them. During a leak down test they leaked like a sieve. All intake valves are seated tightly. Two other exhaust valves are leaking very slightly which could be fairly normal or they could have some debris under them as well.
We'll know more once the valves are out of it.
I took the head to Bore Tech because Bill is a friend of mine and I trust him with the job of sorting it out.
To answer some of the other questions:
Brian,
It really wasn't a "bang' more of a loud click. So no indication of something catastrophic.
No I haven't heard of modern sportbikes having a carbon build up problem either. Neither has anyone else I know. But, now I know that it is, in fact, the current problem. Just don't know what caused it except it being fuel related.
Back in the sixties (maybe earlier) the Gov mandated that gasoline companies put additives (with a minimum standard) in their gas that would inhibit combustion chamber deposits. It didn't work very well then.
Today the gas companies still have a minimum standard but is even less (50%) than it was in the beginning, so it is even less effective now. They are now more concerned about emisions than keeping your engine clean, except that Shell seems to be attempting to address the issue in their fuels.
Cam chain, tensioner, and timing were all ok.
<snip>
That's about all I have for now.
Will keep you updated as to how this is going.
Dean
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The only other thing I can think of is a batch of contaminated gasoline from a distributor. Not one tanker full but an entire storage container. That way you might have gotten quite a few loads of contaminated fuel from the same station over time. ??
Brian
He said he usually buys gas from one station when he's home. I'm racking my brain trying to figure out how significant carbon fouling can occur in a short time due to gas and I can't really come up with anything. I can definitely see it happening over a long period of time. Perhaps that Marathon station just sells bad gas and after many tankfulls it finally added up to too much gunk?
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Hey Brian,
I'm with you all of the way on this regarding the gasoline alone being the root cause.
The only other thought I came up with regarding fuel and or ignition efficiency was that during the trip home from Colorado I was caught in slow moving (crawling, paddle footing) construction traffic in 100 degree temps for about an hour east of St Louis (that seriously sucked). Also, we were out there for the Pikes Peak International Hill Climb and at the end of the race it took almost 4 hours to get us off of the mountain, again idling. For 4 hours, except those times when we could turn off the engine and coast downhill. Don't know, just trying to rationalize this carbon. Makes no sense.
The exhaust ports do have some light black chalky discoloration but nothing that would be considered abnormal for an exhaust port.
The spark plugs look pretty normal as well.
My bad, I haven't checked the air filter yet. I will do that when I take the head back to the dealer.
While there was a layer of carbon buildup across the entire combustion chamber the worst of it was on the piston crown on the intake side where the piston has a lip, if you will. The rest of the piston crown is flat except there. Carbon had built up at the base of that lip significantly, to the point of being able to be chipped off in a whole piece. Carbon was built up on the head portion of the chamber in the corresponding location. The number 2 cylinder is the culprit at the moment and the carbon "chunk" was broken loose in that chamber. The other 3 chambers still had the carbon "chunk" in place before they cleaned them out.
Again, I will only have pics of the head because the dealer has already cleaned up the pistons.
Crash,
I do buy most of my local gas at the same station, but I put that same gas in 4 other motorcycles (3 of which are vintage and ridden regularly), 2 cars, and a lawnmower.
I'm not convinced that this a gas issue only. You are correct though that I could have gotten a bad slug while on the trip home from Colorado.
Now the air filter is bugging me. ???
Here is a link the the STP product that I think I will look into when this is settled.
http://www.stp.com/products/fuel-additives/complete-fuel-system-cleaner/ (http://www.stp.com/products/fuel-additives/complete-fuel-system-cleaner/)
I'll update as I know more,
Dean
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I don't think it's a bad idea to use FI cleaner before every oil change as it tends to loosen crap up and put it into the oil and oil filter.
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D
Anyway, I was told by a GM service manager awhile back that you should ONLY run Shell, Chevron, or Quik Trip (one of the least expensive in our area) gas in your vehicles.
That is wrong and stupid and says little for anyone who believes.Fact is that gas is a commodity that is shared among stations and companies. I have personally witness gas tankers make a delivery to the local Chevron station, then drive down the road to the $.20 a gallon cheaper generic station. In my area most of the gas comes via pipe line and is made by Tosco, BP or Chevron. Go to a Chevron station and you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron gas. Go to a Shell station and you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron. Go to Abdullahs Discount Gas, you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron. Catch a trend here?
As for the carbon, I bet there is a a clogged cat in the exhaust. Rich running will clog a cat. A clogged cat will cause richness. Almost sounds like chicken or egg. With the flies out and different fuel map, I am curious to hear if the dealer will honor the warranty.
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This is probably out of left field ,but this thread has me wondering -maybe it would be a good idea to set up a water injection
system for my 14 .You older mechanic -type guys might remember . Just a small water tank with a hose going to a tiny orifice
placed somewhere in an engine vacuum line . An adjustment can be placed on the hose to control water volume.
This may sound like backyard hocus pocus , but it works well for carbon removal from the combustion chamber. Small amount of water is harmless ,but shines the top of the piston like new. Of course , you have to fill the tank occasionally.
Even seen the more adventurous techs pour a small stream of water directly into the carb throat- - quick clean!
We used to do that in the "old days" when you could get to the intake and just hold the rpms up while misting or pouring water right in to the carbs or early throttle bodies. This worked really well on soft powdery carbon fouling. This stuff I'm seeing in my C14 has to be chipped or scraped off. I'm not sure it could be removed with the water injection method.
Modifying your bike for the water injection would surely be a challenge. I would try this first.
http://www.stp.com/products/fuel-additives/complete-fuel-system-cleaner/ (http://www.stp.com/products/fuel-additives/complete-fuel-system-cleaner/)
I appologize for giggling when I read your post. I was invisioning you in your garage with a complete machine shop setup and more tools than I would ever know how to use and a Masters Degree in mechanical engineering, designing a fully functioning water injection system for your C14 that you might use once every 3 years.
It's the thought that counts and it was something that Bill, from BoreTech, and I discussed. We both decided that it would definately be more trouble that it would be worth.
Dean
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That is wrong and stupid and says little for anyone who believes.Fact is that gas is a commodity that is shared among stations and companies. I have personally witness gas tankers make a delivery to the local Chevron station, then drive down the road to the $.20 a gallon cheaper generic station. In my area most of the gas comes via pipe line and is made by Tosco, BP or Chevron. Go to a Chevron station and you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron gas. Go to a Shell station and you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron. Go to Abdullahs Discount Gas, you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron. Catch a trend here?
As for the carbon, I bet there is a a clogged cat in the exhaust. Rich running will clog a cat. A clogged cat will cause richness. Almost sounds like chicken or egg. With the flies out and different fuel map, I am curious to hear if the dealer will honor the warranty.
I don't know if there is a clogged cat in the exhaust but there could be a small dog or a chipmunk stuck in there ;D
That would be something to look at while the exhaust is off of the bike though. Good call.
I'm with you on the gas. Have seen the same thing myself.
As far as clogged exhaust I would think that it would seriously effect my gas mileage and performance and both are very good.
I'm stumped ???
Oh, and I'm out of the warranty on this one. I'm eating this one. :'(
Dean
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....Son of Pappy,
Doh!!! I haven't yet checked the air cleaner. .......Dean
26k miles, PC3, flys out, I have to ask a few other questions...
did you ever do the valve adjust?
curious as to what dealer will say about that, combined with not checking the air filter in 26k miles also...yeah, i think that could cause quite a carbon problem.
Are you getting this done thru warranty or out of pocket now? oops, my bad, just caught that part.
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That is wrong and stupid and says little for anyone who believes.Fact is that gas is a commodity that is shared among stations and companies. I have personally witness gas tankers make a delivery to the local Chevron station, then drive down the road to the $.20 a gallon cheaper generic station. In my area most of the gas comes via pipe line and is made by Tosco, BP or Chevron. Go to a Chevron station and you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron gas. Go to a Shell station and you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron. Go to Abdullahs Discount Gas, you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron. Catch a trend here?
As for the carbon, I bet there is a a clogged cat in the exhaust. Rich running will clog a cat. A clogged cat will cause richness. Almost sounds like chicken or egg. With the flies out and different fuel map, I am curious to hear if the dealer will honor the warranty.
I've seen this brought up on forums before. A guy who drives a tanker once responded that the tanker itself can be sectioned off to carry different gas blends or additives. I don't mean to sound naive, but legally Chevron cannot say their gas has certain additives (Techron) unless it really does. I'm guessing that they really are not delivering the exact same blend to all of the stations they delivery to.
Here is a source I just found on a google search that explains it....
http://yel.pca.org/tech_fuel.php (http://yel.pca.org/tech_fuel.php)
To the OP, one thing that strikes me that you do that others don't is use fuel additives/cleaners. When trying to analyze a problem I always look for something that is out of the ordinary. Most people don't run additives and most people don't have carbon build up. Regardless of how these additives are supposed to help, not hurt - I would do some research on the additives that you use and see if anyone else is having a problem after using them. Probably not, but can't hurt to do a few google searches (how did we live without google???).
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Given enough time, vapor or water injection will remove all deposits in the combustion chamber and leave it looking like new. But it will take a lot more engine running time than you could stand around and drip water into the intake for.
Another way to deal with this problem would be vapor induction with the vapor consisting of a 50/50 mixture of acetone and water. It was used back in the 70's to increase the octane rating of gasoline when it no longer contained lead. A by- product was a wonderfully clean combustion chamber (it would actually clean dirty spark plugs).
But none of those methods should be necessary. You seem to have a unique problem and I certainly would not suggest anyone start to fix this problem because it is not likely they have the problem in the first place. Sometimes the internet can have things get out of hand and I can just see this becoming another piece of C-14 folklore ('Dem guys with dem big Kawasakis have to mix their gas with acetone and put butterflies in their tires!').
Brian
We used to do that in the "old days" when you could get to the intake and just hold the rpms up while misting or pouring water right in to the carbs or early throttle bodies. This worked really well on soft powdery carbon fouling. This stuff I'm seeing in my C14 has to be chipped or scraped off. I'm not sure it could be removed with the water injection method.
<snip>
Dean
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Rather silly question maybe but do you ever rev the bike up, above 8 k for instance (Italian tune-up). Do you have any timing mods done to the engine?
Do you have any aftermarket air fuel mapping devices installed?
Fretka
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Maybe the PC3 was set too rich? What kind of fuel mileage do you get? My stock '08 gets 45+mpg at a steady 75mph, mid 20s running hard in the twisties.
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That is wrong and stupid and says little for anyone who believes.Fact is that gas is a commodity that is shared among stations and companies. I have personally witness gas tankers make a delivery to the local Chevron station, then drive down the road to the $.20 a gallon cheaper generic station. In my area most of the gas comes via pipe line and is made by Tosco, BP or Chevron. Go to a Chevron station and you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron gas. Go to a Shell station and you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron. Go to Abdullahs Discount Gas, you'll get Tosco, BP or Chevron. Catch a trend here?
As for the carbon, I bet there is a a clogged cat in the exhaust. Rich running will clog a cat. A clogged cat will cause richness. Almost sounds like chicken or egg. With the flies out and different fuel map, I am curious to hear if the dealer will honor the warranty.
Gee, thanks for the attack. Makes me really want to pay attention to anything you say after that.
As I said, this was several years ago (2005?) and I definitely was told this by the dealership. Maybe at the time, those were the only ones in our area that so rated. I really don't know, just passing along what I was told.
It seems that TODAY, most gasoline brands meet the requirements for top tier gas. See http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html (http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html) and http://www.76.com/OurGas.aspx (http://www.76.com/OurGas.aspx)
You might also take a moment to read the link that jjsC6 posted below. I'll even repeat it for you so you don't have to search for it. http://yel.pca.org/tech_fuel.php. (http://yel.pca.org/tech_fuel.php.) This one is pretty informative and blows your "one truck = one gas" theory. Same with the "Tosco, BP, or Chevron" theory.
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Guys, let's keep this civil. It's an interesting discussion that I do want to keep going.
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What were the results of the initial valve adjustment. If there was carbon buildup on the intake valves this would have shown up as loose clearances right?. Before carbon build up got bad enough to cause engine damage I would expect noticeable pinging or pre-ignition, any signs of that on the CO trip. Did you wash the bike when it was still hot from the 100 degree ride?
Did you have the battery load tested to see if it was really bad. Did the bike always start easily until the failure? Forgive all the questions but just looking for clues for this puzzle. I don't think it can be fuel issue, more likely a bad FI sensor causing a rich condition but I would have thought the diagnostics would give a red light and fault code if a sensor input was out of spec enough to cause massive carbon fouling.
To the collective minds that reside here. ( I could not find this in a search).
The background first, please.
Just got home from a 3400 mile trip out west to Colorado. Bike ran great. Straight home on the slab in 100 degree temps and cruising at 80-90. Washed the beast and parked her. Next day, well:(
2008 C14 26,000 miles. Flies out. PC3. Premium gas from multiple locations. Regular oil changes. Ridden hard enough that I should not be being told what I am hearing.
Started the bike up next day and it made a noise (hiccup?) and quit. Tried to restart and nothing but crank. The electronic dash then acted up (zeroed both trip meters, lost the whole TPS screen (as in gone), imobilizer flashing fast). Cranked but no starting. OK, figured battery. 3 years old. Voltage drop when cranking (12.5 to 11.0 then 11.4). Ordered and received a Shorai and installed. Now it cranks for a while then starts. And sounds like a can of rocks being shaken. Whoa!.
To shorten this, I took it to a dealer (where I bought it and they know me). They now have the head off of it and are telling me that the combustion chambers are so carbon fouled that the pistons are hitting the fouling ( hence the banging, rattling noises) and that some of it may have broken off and gotten lodged under one of the exhaust valves and damaged it.
Now I've been around internal combustion engines since I was 12 years old and understand that carbon fouling can be a problem in many instances but..... a modern 4 stroke fuel injected engine used the way we use them??
Within 26,000 miles??
WTF??
Any ideas, no matter how radical, will sound sensible right about now.
Thanks, in advance, to the collective minds here for any input you might have.
Dean
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Are you using Amsoil "scamsoil" by chance?
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As an aside, I once read that the main long distance gasoline pipeline was always kept full and each retailer (Chevron etc..) would purchase a certain volume or time if you will and divert this base fuel stock to it's own facility, then add/modify it with their own proprietary molecules (ie techron,mmt. ethanol).
So everybody here is right!
They used to use a radioactive tracer mixed in with the flow to signal when a change in stock was coming....fascinating!
Fretka
BTW.. if you would like I would be happy to read your current PC map and give you my thoughts.
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Are you using Amsoil "scamsoil" by chance?
Ugh... not to hijack this thread into an oil thread, but what's wrong with Amsoil?
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:popcorn: Right. Let's not hijack this thread...much.
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What were the results of the initial valve adjustment. .....
So far you are the only other person here asking what I asked on pge 2 of this 3 page marathon of speculation and inane diagnostics......
so I ask again:
26k miles, PC3, flys out, I have to ask a few other questions...
did you ever do the valve adjust?
curious as to what dealer will say about that, combined with not checking the air filter in 26k miles also...yeah, i think that could cause quite a carbon problem.
oh, reading back to the start, I will say it's IMPOSSIBLE for the timing chain to "jump" unless the tensioner was totally removed, and an attempt was made to start the engine, there simply is not enough slack to jump.
38mpg is awefull milage, and is very real when the air filter is clogged. My 08 with a fresh air filter and fresh valve adjust was getting 50+ mpg 2 up, heavily loaded running slab at high speeds (70-90 mph) combined with aggressive twisty running (Dragon, Charahola, parkway etc)on a 2500 mile trip, this was a definit and accurate reslut, as prior to the filter and adjust, my milage had dropped continually till it was holding at 39-40 mpg....One simple service interval may have been the answer to a very expensive repair at this point. I'd also rule out a clogged Cat, at that milage.
it seams as if a lack of spcified maintainence was the cause of this catastophic failure.
A simple blocked crancase vent, which we have seen a few of here on this bike, could easily cause problems forcing oil and crankcase vapors up past the piston during operation, and add into the feature of this carbon formation in the combustion chamber, but an ill adjusted set of intake valves will be my projection as to the cause, the increased carbon area around the intake side, is a result of combustion taking place during a time when the valves are still open, and thus incomplete combustion and carbon buildup occures. Classic example. VVT functioning will exacerbate this at altitude also, when running hard, and excessive downhill coasting at altitude will further the syndrome.
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I've been on this forum for three years now and I've never seen anyone report on a 08-09 reporting that kind of mileage except under very rare conditions. 38 is pretty normal from what I've seen people post for those year bikes.
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Ugh... not to hijack this thread into an oil thread, but what's wrong with Amsoil?
It is expensive gourmet garbage oil, the car and marine oils they make might be fine but their motorcycle oils suck ass.
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I've been on this forum for three years now and I've never seen anyone report on a 08-09 reporting that kind of mileage except under very rare conditions. 38 is pretty normal from what I've seen people post for those year bikes.
I been here over double that time, and remember quite a few who got quite a bit better than that, but it requires forgetting there is a sixth gear on the machine, and riding it at or above 4k all the time, irregardless of the speed being travelled.
I don't baby my 08', but I can say with all honesty it gets good milage when the airfilter is new, and the valves are correct....and as far as aftermarket maps and programmers/PCx adders, i have found no benefit in them providing mpg increases...
This is one of the worst mpg days i got after my tune, flogging the thing 2 up, loaded on that trip: after filling up in Suches Ga., and running Wolfpen Gap both ways...not a wussy road in the least for anyone knowing it.....
(http://inlinethumb22.webshots.com/45653/2214620380015463693S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2214620380015463693NJreez)
my slab milages were well into the 50+ and only recently, after putting on about 10k on the airfilter, have they come down to a 43mpg avg. I am sure a new filter will net me a gain.
I think a lot of owners lug this bike, and loose a lot of mpg in the process. ;)
jmho
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I think we all get it by now, the timing chain was not the cause as the o.p. said that nothing touched. Okay?
I do have a problem with folks being rude because they can hide behind a windshield or a computer screen. No one here, whether they have useful knowledge or just want to join in and help another, needs to have their contribution judged "inane" by another member. A little tolerance, perhaps some respect can go a long way towards keeping this board a friendly place to be.
We all are learning something here, if you know the answer then serve it right up but please, lose the hubris first.
Fretka
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I been here over double that time, and remember quite a few who got quite a bit better than that, but it requires forgetting there is a sixth gear on the machine, and riding it at or above 4k all the time, irregardless of the speed being travelled.
I don't baby my 08', but I can say with all honesty it gets good milage when the airfilter is new, and the valves are correct....and as far as aftermarket maps and programmers/PCx adders, i have found no benefit in them providing mpg increases...
This is one of the worst mpg days i got after my tune, flogging the thing 2 up, loaded on that trip: after filling up in Suches Ga., and running Wolfpen Gap both ways...not a wussy road in the least for anyone knowing it.....
(http://inlinethumb22.webshots.com/45653/2214620380015463693S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2214620380015463693NJreez)
my slab milages were well into the 50+ and only recently, after putting on about 10k on the airfilter, have they come down to a 43mpg avg. I am sure a new filter will net me a gain.
I think a lot of owners lug this bike, and loose a lot of mpg in the process. ;)
jmho
Regardless of what you are getting, I stand by my statement that a lot of members report that they only get in the 30's.
As to being here twice as long, I believe that, but not riding a Concours 14. I've been on since the 14 was not even available yet. Not trying to argue, but being on twice as long doesn't get you anything in this debate because the bike wasn't out yet - just saying! ;)
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I regulary get in the mid-40's. This week I did a 150 mile stretch at 75-80 mph on the Interstate where I got over 51 mpg in ECO mode. I've found that "normal" riding in ECO mode nets me an extra 4 mpg (give or take a hair).
I think I'm going to try keeping it in ECO mode most of the time since it is deactivated at over 30% throttle and/or 6,000 rpm anyway. Just wish it would remember the setting when you restart the bike.
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This forum goes through 'undulations' now and then until it settles down. When it does settle, it is a very good, informative, polite and relatively gentle forum. A lot of people contribute useful things and that makes the sum greater than the parts. Also, the obnoxious folks don’t seem to find a good time here and move on.
Clearly the OP has an odd problem with his C-14 and we may never understand what was the root cause(s) of that problem. I do like your idea of running the engine fast enough to 'blow the carbon out of it' occasionally. Also, using a relatively heavy concentration of fuel injector cleaner in the bike and then pushing it harder than normal will go a long way to remove carbon deposits even on the intake valves.
But back to behavior for a moment. This forum is rebuilding a user base after some significant changes. I think those of us who have been here right along can help choose what the future of this board is going to be. It seems to be that the majority of old timers who have found their way back will make excellent contributors, as well some of these new folks who are into more complex things that almost any of us (turbos, fuel systems that compensate for turbo boost, etc. ). I for one am very grateful to hear about these things as I find them fascinating.
So please, those who have something to contribute, go ahead and contribute. Those who are going to be nothing but critical of those who contribute, do we really need that input? I know this is a corny idea but let's shoot for the common good and try to make things abound here better than they were yesterday. With decent contributors and restrained obnoxiousness, this place will be a great place to share ideas, bike builds, and all learn a lot together.
Brian
I think we all get it by now, the timing chain was not the cause as the o.p. said that nothing touched. Okay?
I do have a problem with folks being rude because they can hide behind a windshield or a computer screen. No one here, whether they have useful knowledge or just want to join in and help another, needs to have their contribution judged "inane" by another member. A little tolerance, perhaps some respect can go a long way towards keeping this board a friendly place to be.
We all are learning something here, if you know the answer then serve it right up but please, lose the hubris first.
Fretka
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^^^^what Brian said +1
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Maybe the PC3 was set too rich? What kind of fuel mileage do you get? My stock '08 gets 45+mpg at a steady 75mph, mid 20s running hard in the twisties.
+1 I would go with the most likely culprit and that is the one mod that is most likely to have caused a rich condition.
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......
So please, those who have something to contribute, go ahead and contribute. Those who are going to be nothing but critical of those who contribute, do we really need that input? I know this is a corny idea but let's shoot for the common good and try to make things abound here better than they were yesterday. With decent contributors and restrained obnoxiousness, this place will be a great place to share ideas, bike builds, and all learn a lot together.
Brian
Agreed Brian,
I suppose that as the forum has been "re-booted" the data that some of us painstakenly have lost will never be seen by those just coming aboard, and that fact seems to be the straw when some longtime members become impatiant with some responses that don't seem pertinant, or just plain speculative. I say this only because of what we have cumulatively already gone over, and over, and over. Sorry if I sometimes do not have the patiance to be gentle, but I have been called out way to many times by people that have just "popped in".
You and I, along with some others here, are among the first people in the USA to stick a bunch of money on the line the day this bike first hit the showroom floor, and have since that date, attempted to relate, answer complex questions, and overall enhance the owners experience with the findings we have made. I don't think we have done a bad job in that respect, but unfortunatly that HISTORY is long gone. I suppose in time, we can re-establish it here, for the benefit of all.
Now, I am still awaiting the answer to the 2 questions I posed, to add some semblence to my understanding of the O/P's resulting failure.
1) was the airfilter ever replaced in the 24k miles of ownership.
2) what were the results of the scheduled valve inspection if it was ever completed, or was it ever done at all?
If those questions are construed as condescending, then I cannot see any reason to ever expect someone to understand the attempts I, and others, have made trying to contribute detailed instruction on keeping this bike healthy.
.....I do have a problem with folks being rude because they can hide behind a windshield or a computer screen. No one here, whether they have useful knowledge or just want to join in and help another, needs to have their contribution judged "inane" by another member.....Fretka
Fretka,
Please don't take that opinion of me. I have been here for 8 years, I have stood in parking lots at rallies and repaired COG member's bikes many times on the road, just because it's the thing I do.
I have compiled data on both this bike, and the original C10, and shared it thru litterally thousands of p/m's, e-mails, and technical discussions here, and face to face with members of the group, and of COG. I do not "hide" behind a monitor or windscreen...Getting phone calls at 11 p.m. to answer questions on how to get someone on the road so they can make a ride or rally has been a way of life. There are very few people here, that I can see doing that, Very few.
My number is and has always been in the COG book for people to use whenever they need help, not so many people on the C14 threads know that, but the c10 people surely do. I made a vow when I relenquished my position as Tech Editor for COG, that I would always be here to assist.... I don't see that from any "Tech Guru's" today. pretty sad. Seems they have left the building.
farkle on.
tires and oil. ;)
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Hey Guys,
While I'm waiting for some more definitive information (waiting for the head to be gone over) I thought I would address some thoughts and questions brought up during the course of this up and down thread.
First off this thread wasn't started as a C14 bash. I really like my bike and plan to ride it till I have to have it towed to a scrap yard. On the contrary, I started it because I have an issue that I thought someone here might have some ideas on.
Thanks for all of the thoughts thus far. Some of them I hadn't considered when I started this.
The bike has always started and run great. No problems there at all, until now.
My fuel mileage for my most recent trip to Colorado from Ohio and back averaged overall 38mpg and, on the stints that were all slab, averaged 46mpg. (not being rude here but I have to call BS on the 50mpg+ on a 2008 C14. I set my trip meter to zero at a full tank then run that tank low, fill up, use a calculator and divide my gallons purchased into the miles run. Voila, accurate mpgs. I do not use the dash mpg readout. ) I'm not familiar with the ECO mode that must be on the newer models so maybe it's possible with them.
No excessive soot in the muffler cap or exhaust ports (other than what would be considered normal)
Initial valve adjust was ok with no adjustments made at that time (12,800mi). We decided that at the next check we would fine tune if nesessary. (was due)
Man-Of-Blues, you did mention something that caught my attention. If the intake valves did need adjustment (which I won't know now due to the engine already being apart), based on what you said about the elevation and downhill coasting, a lot of that was done while riding up and down Pikes Peak and may have begun or contributed to my current problem. I will check into the intake valve scenario but now won't know for sure, but it makes perfect sense except that if the valve adjustments were changing due to wear wouldn't the valves get tighter not looser?
OK, I admit, I overlooked the air filter. But the way my bike runs and starts and the fuel mileage I'm getting I doubt, seriously, that the air filter alone is causing this condition.
I also doubt, based up how the bike runs and the fuel mileage, that the cat converter is the culprit.
I use a FI cleaner every 4-5000 miles at the rate of 6ozs per full tank.
I use premium fuel at every tank fill.
Oil and filter change every 5000mi using Rotella synthetic 5W-40. (don't even bring it up! I use it in everything except my vintage bikes, including my race bikes. And will continue to do so)
Since no one here knows my riding style let's just say that Eddie Lawson and Kevin Schwantz used to fear my presence at the track. (OK, I've dreamed that somewhere along the way, probably while consuming alcohol).
Suffice to say, yes I know where red line is and like it there. My riding style has nothing to do with combustion chamber carbon buildup.
No, it didn't use any oil on the recent trip nor does it at any other time.
As far as the use of additives is concerned, I only use the above mentioned additive at the stated amount.
The other additive that I had posted a link to (STP) was one that I thought addressed my current problem but not one I have tried.
This combustion chamber carbon fouling isn't something new or limited to motorcycles or small engines. While searching the internet for thoughts or ideas on my current problem I found many recent references to this on sports car forums, scooter forums, vintage car forums, etc. Many of them were discussing the current quality of gasoline we have available and how could they deal with this issue in their particular vehicles.
If you are inclined to post in this thread, please read the whole thread before doing so. Many questions being asked are already addressed. Thanks
I should get the head back this week and will update.
Dean
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Man Of Blues, Brian, Fred, and others on this forum are why I posted here. I knew I could get some rational thoughts on why I have the stituation I currently find myself in. I also knew I would get some irrational thoughts, but hey, life would be boring without some level of insanity, right?
I seldom posted on the old forum because I feared that by posting, my C14, through association or cyberspace interference, would develope every malady ever known to afflict a C14. Mine has been a great bike and will probably continue to be.
So, with that said, thanks to all so far.
MOB, my previous post and your previous post were being typed at the same time. I answered your questions in my previous post. Thanks for your input.
Will keep this updated.
Dean
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Dean,
Thanks for responding, I hope to explain the reasoning of my 2 questions.
First, I appologize in advance if it seemed rude on my part to be curt and short with my response before, it was not out of disrespect, only because I saw a lot of things I would normally rule out as a cause for the current situation.
In my opinion, the airfilter can ad does have a serious result when clogged. The onboard system will always attempt to supply fuel, even when the airflow is not up to par, if the sensors are not reading correctly, an over rich condition brought on by clooged filter will produce an extremely rich condition, and with a PC3, which may or may not be operating in the same manner as the oem (without installing O2 sensors) could in fact make this bike run extremely rich.
The valve adjust /inspect could still be "post mortemed" if they have not already removed them all and the shims, likely it is too late now for that. The valves do not "get tighter", but the opposite occurs... as valves stretch and seat in the clearance between cam and bucket reduces, and in a case of extreme (uninspected) conditions, it is possible for the clearances to completely close, and become a negative number, when this occurs, the cam is actually rubbing the bucket all the time, and holding the intake valve open slightly off the seat. When this occurs, fuel trail is under combustion with this valve still open slightly, and the airflow at the intake will be cooling the charge as it is combusted, creating the carbon you see at the intakes because it is not an ideal seal. Coupled with a plugged crankcase vent, some crankcase pressurization will cause blowby on the piston to bore seal, and will increase the chances of case oil mist adding into the equation. This will not be very eveident as "burning or using oil", it is only a very small amount of loss, but DOES add into the equation of creating carbon.
I have worked on many bike engines where valve clearances were not attended to, and in every case where I found negative clearance on intake valves (valve held open/off the seat) the result was extreme carbon buildup as you describe.
On a Carbureted engine, the engine will perform poorly when this begins, and as the reversion pulse is back feeding the carbs, it will be noticed quite rapidly, not as much so on an injected bike, especially with the secondary flies out. I suspect close examination of the throttlebody, and the intake tract will expose a higher than normally expected amount of unburnt fuel deposits on the throats,which should never be there, further showing this may be occurring.
I hope this sheds some light on the possibilities I can see for the cause.
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Rich, where do you check for a clogged crankcase vent?
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Dean,
Thanks for responding, I hope to explain the reasoning of my 2 questions.
First, I appologize in advance if it seemed rude on my part to be curt and short with my response before, it was not out of disrespect, only because I saw a lot of things I would normally rule out as a cause for the current situation.
In my opinion, the airfilter can ad does have a serious result when clogged. The onboard system will always attempt to supply fuel, even when the airflow is not up to par, if the sensors are not reading correctly, an over rich condition brought on by clooged filter will produce an extremely rich condition, and with a PC3, which may or may not be operating in the same manner as the oem (without installing O2 sensors) could in fact make this bike run extremely rich.
The valve adjust /inspect could still be "post mortemed" if they have not already removed them all and the shims, likely it is too late now for that. The valves do not "get tighter", but the opposite occurs... as the clearance between cam and bucket reduces, and in a case of extreme (uninspected) conditions, it is possible for the clearances to completely close, and become a negative number, when this occurs, the cam is actually rubbing the bucket all the time, and holding the intake valve open slightly off the seat. When this occurs, fuel trail is under combustion with this valve still open slightly, and the airflow at the intake will be cooling the charge as it is combusted, creating the carbon you see at the intakes because it is not an ideal seal. Coupled with a plugged crankcase vent, some crankcase pressurization will cause blowby on the piston to bore seal, and will increase the chances of case oil mist adding into the equation. This will not be very eveident as "burning or using oil", it is only a very small amount of loss, but DOES add into the equation of creating carbon.
I hope this sheds some light on the possibilities I can see for the cause.
See....that's why I posted here. Your discription of the intake valve scenario is making the most sense here.
You're right, though, in that now I won't know that because it is already apart.
When Bill, from BoreTech, and I were inspecting the head, the buildup at the intake side was very evident and worse there than elsewhere.
The known combination of lack of air filter replacement (not like me.....really) a power commander or computer adjusting air/fuel ratios accordingly and out of adjustment intake valves (very possible because they were due for another check) could very well be the culprit here.
Sure wish that in the end I will be to say, AHA!!, that was it, but probably won't ever know for sure. I'm going with your explaination, because it makes sense and is very possible.
Dean
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Rich, where do you check for a clogged crankcase vent?
I think Freddie had photos, I don't have any....
It's buried man, deep in behind and below the throttlebodies, there is a breather cover on the sloping top surface of the case. there is a 90* nipple with a hose running up, to the left side, and up again iirc and into the airbox (again, iirc)...but I cannot say I have ever had my hands on it because it is sooooo buried. ??? :'(
See page 17-2 in the 08/09 manual
this is from his post over at the Org site:
http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,27974.msg115861.html#msg115861 (http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,27974.msg115861.html#msg115861)
images won't attach...sorry
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Tanks. Sounds like a 4-beer procedure to me...
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On the left hand side of the bike, just behind the throttle bodies and going straight up and into the frame. Shown with the yellow arrow in the photo below:
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/BDF08012008/Crankcasebreatherhose-1.jpg)
Brian
Rich, where do you check for a clogged crankcase vent?
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I was not addressing you with my post Rich, it was more of a general thought. Good manners cost nothing.
As I said, I have generally found that the more obnoxious people tend to move on, probably because there is little to interest them here. Institutions have personalities and overall I think this forum is one of the nicest around. Even when things get a little sharp things calm down pretty quickly back the normal.
The loss of data from the old forum really is too bad; I actually lost info. that I had posted because I did not have it anywhere else. There was a good deal of data about the charging system on my C-14 that I would really like to have back.
Back to the topic at hand: I have found two C-14s with clogged crankcase breather tubes, both times it looked like a combination of oil and water had foamed up to create a 'plug' in the vertical part of the hose. Pretty amazing really because I would have thought that the foam would have broken back down to liquid and just drained back into the crankcase but it did not. Something to be aware of, especially in the winter for those who use the bike in cooler weather.
Brian
Agreed Brian,
I suppose that as the forum has been "re-booted" the data that some of us painstakenly have lost will never be seen by those just coming aboard, and that fact seems to be the straw when some longtime members become impatiant with some responses that don't seem pertinant, or just plain speculative. I say this only because of what we have cumulatively already gone over, and over, and over. Sorry if I sometimes do not have the patiance to be gentle, but I have been called out way to many times by people that have just "popped in".
You and I, along with some others here, are among the first people in the USA to stick a bunch of money on the line the day this bike first hit the showroom floor, and have since that date, attempted to relate, answer complex questions, and overall enhance the owners experience with the findings we have made. I don't think we have done a bad job in that respect, but unfortunatly that HISTORY is long gone. I suppose in time, we can re-establish it here, for the benefit of all.
<snip>
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Great thread while I wait for my flight to take off, always learning stuff about my bike. Sorry can't contribute anything to the specific problem, other than 'good luck'.
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On the left hand side of the bike, just behind the throttle bodies and going straight up and into the frame. Shown with the yellow arrow in the photo below:
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/BDF08012008/Crankcasebreatherhose-1.jpg)
Brian
10-4 on that shot
the other end with the 90* fitting is the tough one to see/reach to plug back in.
I would assume it would be prone to clogs all along the semi-horizontal run between the spot you showed, and that fitting.
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Heck, you guys are going to cut it down to a two beer procedure...I'm quite disappointed.
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Heck, you guys are going to cut it down to a two beer procedure...I'm quite disappointed.
it takes me 3 just to get the courage to attempt getting the bike on the lift...... :rotflmao: :chugbeer: :yikes: :thumbs: :rotflmao:
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I have only seen two clogged but they were both clogged in the vertical section. Go figure. I too would have though the clog would be in the horizontal run.
To clean them out I have only removed the top of the tube from the frame and used a long, thin screwdriver to reach down the tube. I was too scarred to even try to remove the entire piece of tubing (it is way, way inside the bike). :D
Brian
10-4 on that shot
the other end with the 90* fitting is the tough one to see/reach to plug back in.
I would assume it would be prone to clogs all along the semi-horizontal run between the spot you showed, and that fitting.
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it takes me 3 just to get the courage to attempt getting the bike on the lift...... :rotflmao: :chugbeer: :yikes: :thumbs: :rotflmao:
Then another 3 to take the plastics off, by that time I have forgotten what I was doing and just end up sitting in the garage finishing off the rest of the beer and staring at the bike.
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Nothing wrong with that, Jeremy.
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Then another 3 to take the plastics off, by that time I have forgotten what I was doing and just end up sitting in the garage finishing off the rest of the beer and staring at the bike.
LOL ! I've been there, done that! (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-eatdrink048.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
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it takes me 3 just to get the courage to attempt getting the bike on the lift...... :rotflmao: :chugbeer: :yikes: :thumbs: :rotflmao:
When I put the bike on the lift backwards to work on the front end I have to get out the Jim Beam and call in a couple of neighbors. Then we kill the Beam and I work on it later. :chugbeer:
Dean
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That breather tube goes down into the deepest recesses of the sump. One way to get at it is to pull the bottom pan and there ya go! I removed mine completely due to positive crankcase pressure from the turbo, got real tired of oiling down my left pant leg. :(
Yep, I agree that if you do good works as you have MOB, then you deserve thanks and respect for doing it. You have mine. Also I think I'll use Brian BDF as my new role model :yikes: He has a healthy way of looking at things (except for the Mandlebrot/Julia set fetish). ;)
Fretka
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We used to do that in the "old days" when you could get to the intake and just hold the rpms up while misting or pouring water right in to the carbs or early throttle bodies. This worked really well on soft powdery carbon fouling. This stuff I'm seeing in my C14 has to be chipped or scraped off. I'm not sure it could be removed with the water injection method.
Modifying your bike for the water injection would surely be a challenge. I would try this first.
http://www.stp.com/products/fuel-additives/complete-fuel-system-cleaner/ (http://www.stp.com/products/fuel-additives/complete-fuel-system-cleaner/)
I appologize for giggling when I read your post. I was invisioning you in your garage with a complete machine shop setup and more tools than I would ever know how to use and a Masters Degree in mechanical engineering, designing a fully functioning water injection system for your C14 that you might use once every 3 years.
It's the thought that counts and it was something that Bill, from BoreTech, and I discussed. We both decided that it would definately be more trouble that it would be worth.
Dean
Pretty funny -thats not me! Just been wrenching on cars for 30 years .When I read about the humongous carbon buildup In your motor ,that old trick popped into my head-hardly practical on a modern bike engine !
Have to say the idea of the intake valves being a little tight makes the most sense of any idea on this post so far imho - maybe in combo with a too rich map on the pc.
Please keep us posted if you arrive at a conclusive answer .
Keith
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Pretty funny -thats not me! Just been wrenching on cars for 30 years .When I read about the humongous carbon buildup In your motor ,that old trick popped into my head-hardly practical on a modern bike engine !
Have to say the idea of the intake valves being a little tight makes the most sense of any idea on this post so far imho - maybe in combo with a too rich map on the pc.
Please keep us posted if you arrive at a conclusive answer .
Keith
PC mapping was first thing came to mind for me when i opened this thread. On my ZX14 at sea level mine was set so rich using a canned map it fouled the exhaust, plugs, etc. Quick trip to the dyno resolved it.
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Tanks. Sounds like a 4-beer procedure to me...
It's at least a 4 beer job Jim.
Some may recall the condensation problem that I was having with my bike back in '09 (a new 'stat seems to have cured that issue). Lots of moisture in the site glass and someone mentioned that the crankcase breather might be clogged, I think that it was Brian. I tore into it and here's the result. You can see the white oil foam (emulsion) in the pics below. I used my shop vac to create a vacuum in the beer bottle and then suck the foam out of the tube.
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Oh, the humanity! Please tell me the beer bottle was empty.
That's a pretty big crankcase hose. Didn't realize that. Thanks for the pictures.
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PC mapping was first thing came to mind for me when i opened this thread. On my ZX14 at sea level mine was set so rich using a canned map it fouled the exhaust, plugs, etc. Quick trip to the dyno resolved it.
I guess I haven't mentioned it so far but I bought the PCIII from Fuel Moto and they mapped it for the flies out and stock exhaust. Doesn't mean that it might be mapped wrong but I've always been happy with the fuel mileage and the way the bike has performed.
I think I'm going with MOBs ideas on the issue.
Dean
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I doubt its your problem too, I was just sharing my experience with a canned map for full system/flies out/filter on my ZX14.
It was running rich at sea level. We custom mapped it on a dyno and resolved the issue.
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Oh, the humanity! Please tell me the beer bottle was empty.
Do you really have to ask? 8)
I would never waste a Stella.
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My son has a Triumph 1050Tiger. Recently a forum member in Wisconsin raised the same issue and posted the pic below of the inlet valves on his bike which had 6000 miles.
(http://www.laddscrap.net/images/TigerValves.jpg)
My son happened to have the airbox off his engine at the time and posted this pic of his inlet valves at after running the hi octane we get in Australia for 30,000 miles.
(http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab313/Freddy1333/Tigervalves.jpg)
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That is some serious carbon build up, but at 6,000 miles...........that is completely insane!
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That is some serious carbon build up, but at 6,000 miles...........that is completely insane!
YES! The discussion has been about fuel additives not octane, I should point out. Ethanol is not yet in all fuels here and, by law, not permitted to be added to premium grade (high octane) - yet.
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Jeeez! Guess I'll go out to the 100* garage and have a look at mine.
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It sounds like fuel and oil consumption were normal so those aren't the culprits. Something was causing abnormally high levels of deposits. Baddean, what gas stations do you frequent?
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That breather tube goes down into the deepest recesses of the sump. One way to get at it is to pull the bottom pan and there ya go! I removed mine completely due to positive crankcase pressure from the turbo, got real tired of oiling down my left pant leg. :(
.....Fretka
I have not removed the hose, or the vent plate/cover it is inserted into, but I have looked closely thru the factory book about this when writing my responses. It does not appear to me to protrude any further than the top plate, and I tend to believe this as if it did go way down inside, it would create problems. It is just a vent. When you say yo got "oiled", did you mean from the other smaller line coming from the airbox that is defined as the box "drain/vent"?
It should have a reservoir at the bottom, near the throttle adjuster knob, and the fuel tank overflow hose, and both the fuel and airbox lines should be plugged below those plastic reservoirs. I understand that when you pressurize the airbox, you will be by all rights, also pressurizing the crankcase with that vent attached, removing the hose where it attaches to the plenum box at the rear, plugging the box fitting, and installing a small vent filter (K&N makes a tiny unit just for that purpose) in the hose, or even installing an automotive PCV valve inline with that small filter, will still allow positive venting of the crankcase without allowing stuff to be sucked back in there. I think plugging the case vent is not a good idea, as it does need venting, if not, you risk seal blowout on all the things that protrude into the engine, such as the cam position sensors, shift shaft, output shaft, valve cover, balancer shafts, etc.
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It sounds like fuel and oil consumption were normal so those aren't the culprits. Something was causing abnormally high levels of deposits. Baddean, what gas stations do you frequent?
please go back and read a bit more on this thread, to see a bit better of what was already covered, ok? ;)
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I have not removed the hose, or the vent plate/cover it is inserted into, but I have looked closely thru the factory book about this when writing my responses. It does not appear to me to protrude any further than the top plate, and I tend to believe this as if it did go way down inside, it would create problems. It is just a vent. When you say yo got "oiled", did you mean from the other smaller line coming from the airbox that is defined as the box "drain/vent"?
It should have a reservoir at the bottom, near the throttle adjuster knob, and the fuel tank overflow hose, and both the fuel and airbox lines should be plugged below those plastic reservoirs. I understand that when you pressurize the airbox, you will be by all rights, also pressurizing the crankcase with that vent attached, removing the hose where it attaches to the plenum box at the rear, plugging the box fitting, and installing a small vent filter (K&N makes a tiny unit just for that purpose) in the hose, or even installing an automotive PCV valve inline with that small filter, will still allow positive venting of the crankcase without allowing stuff to be sucked back in there. I think plugging the case vent is not a good idea, as it does need venting, if not, you risk seal blowout on all the things that protrude into the engine, such as the cam position sensors, shift shaft, output shaft, valve cover, balancer shafts, etc.
The hose I removed was rubber, about 8 mm I.D. and about 5" long. It is attached at the top to the" top plate vent spigot" inside of the crankcase which exits the case then runs vertically to the left side of the engine and then continues up to the airbox. The bottom end of this hose terminates just above the oil-pump pickup with just a raw end-cut held in place by a simple bent wire if I remember correctly.
I terminated the end of this hose externally, just as it makes a 90 d. turn up to the airbox and placed a K&N mini-filter in the end.
In other words the hose I removed is entirely internal of the crankcase. Page 332 of the manual shows a good picture and calls it "breather hose return".
My reason is because of positive crankcase pressure due to the turbo pushing oil up the hose and eventually into the airbox (or in my case the K&N filter). Pretty much like an engine with bad rings would do.
Sorry for the post as I don't think it germain to the main carbon issue of this thread.
Fretka
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While I don't think that running a 1 step hotter plug range will be the cure-all, it might be worth a thought.
Fretka
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please go back and read a bit more on this thread, to see a bit better of what was already covered, ok? ;)
Ah yes, now I see that baddean frequents Marathon when around home. Marathon is not a top tier fuel supplier. That could be part of the problem.
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..Sorry for the post as I don't think it germain to the main carbon issue of this thread.
Fretka
No, on the contrary, and it sheds a lot of important info for someone doing a turbo....and I thank you!!! ;)
The only hose I could see exiting the vent plate, is connected to the vent plate/cover w/ a 90* fitting, and the exit of that fitting seems to allign with a hole in the block below the cover. I have to assume there is some internal passage there, with a "collection recess" that is open to the main area of the case to allow the venting, but only allows any air/oil vapor to go up the hose marked "breather", and any oil to drain back down to that collection reservoir, and be pulled back thru the internal passage thru the short rubber hose you noted that can be removed from below( the one that fits on a "nipple" about 4 inches above the sump intake, and is held in a "C" shaped clip on that intake, upper end has a hose clamp to hold it in place on the nipple). I can see where if the case is pressurized by the turbo pressurizing the air plenum, this will in turn tend to force liquid up into that drain area below the breather hose, and when you back off the throttle allow a lot to be sucked back up there... I'm not disagreeing with you at all....
You were correct to remove the bottom hose, I don't think this will make a venting problem, and it may have been all that was needed no?
I can see the whole thing clearly now, and understand WHY so much oil was present, and I believe you did what was needed to cure it. I just never noticed the additional "oil return" hose dipping down there.
cool job, your case is vented correctly, I was just not understanding "what" was the modification you made.
Thanks,
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So would adding seafoam in the intake be the cure for the carbon build up? I have a friend who swears by seafoam and puts it in the oil gas and intake. Would it hurt the bike to run it in the intake, and where would be the best place to get to the intake.
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I can see where if the case is pressurized by the turbo pressurizing the air plenum, this will in turn tend to force liquid up into that drain area below the breather hose, and when you back off the throttle allow a lot to be sucked back up there.
There is no longer any connection from airbox to crankcase as that would pressurize the case with 8 #'s of air, all the sundry holes/vents have been sealed in the airbox.
The (hopefully) ;) small amount of positive pressure prolly is gas past the rings.
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So would adding seafoam in the intake be the cure for the carbon build up? I have a friend who swears by seafoam and puts it in the oil gas and intake. Would it hurt the bike to run it in the intake, and where would be the best place to get to the intake.
Delco makes/usta make a quart size product for de-carboning engines. You would attach a small dia. hose to the container and the other end to an intake/vacuum source and let the engine run for 10 mins. or so.
I think Seafoam is mostly isopropyl alcohol which binds water but you'll have to check that.
If you were going to de-carbon I think the Delco product would be my first/best bet for serious results.
Fretka
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BTW... I think the main reason that this internal oil hose exists at all might be to keep bulk oil from the airbox in case of a tip-over.
Freka
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this is the "pro" grade stuff, used with specialized systems...but I'm sure you can figure it out...
http://www.zakproducts.com/index.php?submenu=Fuel&src=gendocs&ref=Services-FuelSystem&category=Services (http://www.zakproducts.com/index.php?submenu=Fuel&src=gendocs&ref=Services-FuelSystem&category=Services)
click on the products tab at the right, down in the middle of the page...
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Hey All,
Just got off of the phone with Bill at Bore Tech and he has the valves out of the head and is cleaning it up.
Here is what he discovered. Looks like MOB was on the right track. All of the intake valve seats need to be "skim" dressed and reseated to clean up mild pitting due to the valves "probably" being set too tight. We won't ever know that for sure because the clearances weren't checked prior to disassembling the engine, but Bill is pretty sure this could be the cause. This would be the reason that the carbon buildup was worse near the intake area of the combustion chamber. Intake valve seats are generally softer than the exhaust seats and if the intake valves are held open too long (as in set too tight) they can be subjected to hot combustion gases that they are not designed for and would cause unburnt fuel mixture to be present in the combustion chamber.
The exhaust valve seats will also need to be cleaned up and valves reseated due to carbon fouling that appears to have been "pounded" in to the seats causing the exhaust valves to not seat properly. As you will recall the number 2 cylinder exhaust valves badly failed a leak down test.
Bottom line here is that I'm a (poorer) :'( Dumb A$$ for waiting too long for the second valve check and air filter check.
And that MOB is more than likely right on the money in his accessment of the problem.
Will keep updated on any further developements.
Thanks for all of the ideas, thoughts, and comments.
Guys and gals, keep those valves adjusted!!! 8)
Dean
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Thanks for the update and the lesson. Valve check will happen on schedule!
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Thanks.... I think. ;)
As far as fractals goes, that is all fine and well until they try to apply it to the universe I live in. Just because you don't know exactly where something is (or its velocity) does not mean it is not somewhere exactly. Besides, I side with Big Al when he said "Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the "old one." I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice."
Then again, I don't think the OP's engine carbon problem was caused by tight intake valve clearances. I am not really sure what I think may have caused that problem but the suggestion that it was a mechanical fault, at 27K miles, does not sound logical to me. Unfortunately the underlying cause will probably never be known.
Brian
That breather tube goes down into the deepest recesses of the sump. One way to get at it is to pull the bottom pan and there ya go! I removed mine completely due to positive crankcase pressure from the turbo, got real tired of oiling down my left pant leg. :(
Yep, I agree that if you do good works as you have MOB, then you deserve thanks and respect for doing it. You have mine. Also I think I'll use Brian BDF as my new role model :yikes: He has a healthy way of looking at things (except for the Mandlebrot/Julia set fetish). ;)
Fretka
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Thanks.... I think. ;)
.....
Then again, I don't think the OP's engine carbon problem was caused by tight intake valve clearances. I am not really sure what I think may have caused that problem but the suggestion that it was a mechanical fault, at 27K miles, does not sound logical to me. Unfortunately the underlying cause will probably never be known.
Brian
Brian, there's a big difference in a "tight clearance", and a "constant contact"......
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
and actually, even with the head removed, with the cams and vlaves all in place it could have been measured.....
Glad to hear you are on the way to getting the bike right again Dean, I'm sure there is a lot to be said for checking valves now, ;)
Likely just a couple spins of each valve with some compund will clean them up good as new, and should suffice.
I would suggest though, they may want to check ring gaps on the pistons, and even lightly re-hone to break the glaze on the cylinders (LIGHTLY), as some carbon may have slipped down there, worth the minimal effort while it's torn down so far......
Fractals?....Brian, where do you come up with this stuff?......you crack me up man :rotflmao:
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So would adding seafoam in the intake be the cure for the carbon build up? I have a friend who swears by seafoam and puts it in the oil gas and intake. Would it hurt the bike to run it in the intake, and where would be the best place to get to the intake.
a couple comments, mind you, they are only comments and not construed as gospel...
In the c10 world, the famous SISF Steve and I both have feelings that in some cases we found degradation of the rubber tips on the float needles of the carbs, specifically found more often on bikes where libberal doses of seafoam, and other "stuff" (B-12 berrymans, etc..) had been dumped in, and let set for long periods of time, in lieu of burning up the complete tankfull it was dosed to. with that said, there are some pretty expensive rubber parts inside this C14, that if this were to be an issue, may render more $$ repair than not.
Running the treated fuel completly out is the main safe bet, not dumping it in and letting it set. I would not like to see fuel pump seals after that happens....
as for "injection" into the running bike i.e. how it's done when cleaning a fuel rail on a car, I don't think we can accomplish this easily, and it is probable needless to do with the injectors anyways, as I have yet to hear feedback on a faulty injector to date...yet.
BUT...
I suppose it would be possible to do a "de-carbonizing" douch, by all rights, if a minimal flow, evenly distributed and metered, could be introduced into the vacume inlets we use for synching, it would effectivly do the trick, with the bike running about 2k rpm, over a period of 5 minutes or so, using the cleaners i noted in a prior posting here... of course you would need a monster fan setup to keep the bike cool during the process, but I have "douched" old carbon fouled car engines both thru intake manifold fittings, and directly thru the carb body.... no difference when trying to de-carbon the combustion chamber.
I do caution though, your post mentions adding things to the oil.....that would be bad...very very bad.....do not put it in the oil..... :'(
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Well, constant contact of the valve lobe but no contact of the valve with the valve seat. As I said, just my opinion and impossible to know now that the shims have almost certainly been mixed up and the valves re-seated. But there are too many other symptoms that would appear long before excessive carbon once valves, especially intake valves, start to hang open.
If the valve lash was small enough to cause significant changes in running characteristics, I would think the owner would notice 1) that cylinder skipping with partial or total power loss. 2) the backfiring of that cylinder's induction system when the combustion flame backs up into the throttle body. 3) the lack of power as well as the terrible vibration from running on 3 or 3 1/2 cylinders. ;)
I would find it far easier to believe that there was a load of contamination of fuel that the OP was using- say a 5% mix of diesel fuel in the gasoline storage tank. That would expose his bike to a long run of heavy carbon by products.
At any rate, I think we can all agree that this was a freak occurrence and not at all common or even occasional. Other than the occasional reports here and there on the Internet, this seems to be a one- off occurrence. An interesting problem but not really worth too much research on the cause due to the rarity as well as the likelihood that we will never find that cause.
OFFTOPIC. Way, way OFFTOPIC: Fractals- that was a response to Fretka because of his post referencing Mandelbrot, a pioneer in fractal geometry and mathematics. It seems we (Fretka and I) disagree regarding quantum mechanics; fractals are fine, as is 'quanta' but I disagree with the concept of applying the underlying uncertainty to the real world. I believe Fretka has been horribly misled by some seemingly cleaver people such as Neils Bohr. I am more of a follower of Albert 'Big Al' Einstein who would not fall into that trap even though it was his work that led to the very discovery and later ruination of that field. Either that or Bohr was right and I just cannot accept the "fact" that there is only a 70% probability that I am actually sitting here and typing this.... ;D
Brian
Brian, there's a big difference in a "tight clearance", and a "constant contact"......
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
and actually, even with the head removed, with the cams and vlaves all in place it could have been measured.....
Glad to hear you are on the way to getting the bike right again Dean, I'm sure there is a lot to be said for checking valves now, ;)
Likely just a couple spins of each valve with some compund will clean them up good as new, and should suffice.
I would suggest though, they may want to check ring gaps on the pistons, and even lightly re-hone to break the glaze on the cylinders (LIGHTLY), as some carbon may have slipped down there, worth the minimal effort while it's torn down so far......
Fractals?....Brian, where do you come up with this stuff?......you crack me up man :rotflmao:
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OFFTOPIC. Way, way OFFTOPIC: Fractals- that was a response to Fretka because of his post referencing Mandelbrot, a pioneer in fractal geometry and mathematics. It seems we (Fretka and I) disagree regarding quantum mechanics; fractals are fine, as is 'quanta' but I disagree with the concept of applying the underlying uncertainty to the real world. I believe Fretka has been horribly misled by some seemingly cleaver people such as Neils Bohr. I am more of a follower of Albert 'Big Al' Einstein who would not fall into that trap even though it was his work that led to the very discovery and later ruination of that field. Either that or Bohr was right and I just cannot accept the "fact" that there is only a 70% probability that I am actually sitting here and typing this.... ;D
If a man is typing in the woods....and no-one hears him.............
Fretka (Collapsing wave-fronts at will)
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Sure Fretka, sure. What color is the sky in your universe?
;D
Brian
If a man is typing in the woods....and no-one hears him.............
Fretka (Collapsing wave-fronts at will)
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Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds (c'mon now, everyone sing along)...........
This is what happens to a once meaningful thread that I just won't let die......
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We could still be stuck in the herd mentality of the faulty KiPass or flying luggage threads of days gone by (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/avatars/iconstirthepot.gif)
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If the fob batteries had been changed none of this woulda happened. Let this be a lesson to those who dare question the powahs of KiPASS!!
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Yep, this thread had to go there sooner or later. ;)
All the way back to the topic at hand, did the original poster get his bike together again yet? If so, and if you don't mind my asking, how much was the cost? I would think getting all the way to removal and disassembly of the head would generate a pretty big bill. ??
Brian
If the fob batteries had been changed none of this woulda happened. Let this be a lesson to those who dare question the powahs of KiPASS!!