ST Bikes

[MrFurious]

Pardon me whilst I ponder outloud...

Ever wonder why none of the manufacturers offer a middleweight sport-touring model?  Something in the 600-800cc range?  All of the current ST bikes are pretty big bikes with engines well over a liter in displacement, so why not a mini-me version for those who can't or don't want to wrestle 700-900 pounds of bike?  To date, Honda's the only one who's ever approached this area with their VFR700/750/800 models that have always been held in high regard.

Most manufacturers already have good performance oriented middleweight engine in the lineup, or at least did up until a few years ago.  Kawasaki have the Z750, Yamaha currently has the FZ8, BMW has the F800, Triumph has their new Tiger 800, and the aforementioned Honda VFR.  Most bikes in this size range are considered standards that can be made into suitable touring bikes by adding bags and a few other creature comforts, but for several on this list it wouldn't take much work by the manufacturers to develop a true ST model.

Why not an FJR 800 or a Concours C7?  Set them up with similar features and ergonomics as their big brothers and price them around $10k and I'd bet they'd sell like hotcakes to smaller riders or those who just can't afford or justify the $15k entry fee for the bigger bikes.  Had something like that been available I easily would have chosen it over the C14 as I really don't need this much bike and rarely ever carry a passenger.

[Jeremy Mitchell]

What about the Honda NT700?  It has sold great in Europe as the Deauville for nearly 10 years, so Honda brought it to the states about two years ago.

[Pfloydgad]

I get where you are coming from Furious, and you have a point.
My guess is it is just not a strong enough market anymore to tool up, and produce something you might only sell a couple of thousand of.
Our beloved Concours C10 almost went by the wayside in the middle 90's due to slumping sales accross the board. Was it 96 that they didn't make a single one? Or a very few?
Design is easy, it is the tooling, production and all other costs attributed to manufacturing that probably keep it from happening in todays economy.
Just my opinion, might not be accurate, but has to be close.
Ride safe all.
Greg

[MrFurious]

What about the Honda NT700?  It has sold great in Europe as the Deauville for nearly 10 years, so Honda brought it to the states about two years ago.

I test rode a NT700 and let me tell ya...Honda can call it an ST all they want, but there's no sport to that engine.  It's about as dull and vanilla as an engine can get.  I will say though that it's one heck of a comfortable bike.

[Jeremy Mitchell]

I test rode a NT700 and let me tell ya...Honda can call it an ST all they want, but there's no sport to that engine.  It's about as dull and vanilla as an engine can get.  I will say though that it's one heck of a comfortable bike.

Ok, you got one up on me.  I haven't ridden one, but they do sell alot of them in Europe where fuel economy is more important than performance.  50+ mpg would be nice.  Maybe you could put a turbo on one and tell us how it turns out.   

[ZG]

I sold my 06 VFR800 for my Connie because it was just too small/underpowered/undersuspensioned for 2-up riding with all 3 luggage cases full...
 
It was a great ST bike for just me though!
 







 

[MiniCog]

What about a V-Strom 650?  My dad is faster on his than a lot of guys on their sporty bikes.  And he had hard Givi Keyless bags + a Shad box.  He even had a comfy seat.  The riding position is pretty much like a sport-tourer, and he dropped the bike an inch or so by installing his lowering links and dropping the forks a little bit.  The only thing that doesn't say sport tourer about the V-S 650 is that there's no fairing below the knee and it's chain drive.


The older 250 Ninjas aren't that bad for long distance, either.   


But I can also see why people would say the V-Strom isn't a sport tourer.

[George R. Young]

. . .The older 250 Ninjas aren't that bad for long distance, either.    . .

You may not be entirely serious with your comment, but take a peek at this EX250 with saddlebags (and gaiters).

BTW, I agree with the general sentiment, 1000 CC is much more than I need. If only there was an SV650 with shaft drive . . .

[Nosmo]

What about a V-Strom 650?  My dad is faster on his than a lot of guys on their sporty bikes.  And he had hard Givi Keyless bags + a Shad box.  He even had a comfy seat.  The riding position is pretty much like a sport-tourer, and he dropped the bike an inch or so by installing his lowering links and dropping the forks a little bit.  The only thing that doesn't say sport tourer about the V-S 650 is that there's no fairing below the knee and it's chain drive.


The older 250 Ninjas aren't that bad for long distance, either.   


But I can also see why people would say the V-Strom isn't a sport tourer.

Yup, it's called a Wee-Strom, the bike you didn't know you wanted until you rode one.  Mid-range sport-touring, (but not really dual sport).

pic of mine below:

[booger]

Suzuki Bergman 650

[lt1]

It is a reasonable question, and a great idea.  The simple reason the smaller ST is not offered is because the mfgs do not believe it would be the best use of resources.  Are they right?

The motorcycle market in the U.S.A. is both cyclical and fickle.  In good times when sales are booming, the factories have money for r&d & develop cool bikes.  By the time they hit the market, sales have dried up, and the factories get stuck with the bikes.  When times are tough, no r&d, and no cool bikes that the customers want.  Vicious circle.

The 80's were a good example.  Yamaha Vision 550 - 1 or 2 years.  Honda CBX 1050 (as an ST) - 2 years.  Honda Silver Wing - 2 years as a 500, 1 as a 650. Lots of standards (before "naked" was in vogue) came and went quickly, even with aftermarket fairings & panniers available.

Sport touring has proven to be a small market in the states.  I personally cannot understand why anyone would prefer a cruiser or and adv bike to and ST, but those bikes are still selling, adv bikes being the "current thing".  Personally, I think most of the adv bikes are just ugly ST's, but what do I know?

Economies of scale - it doesn't cost that much more to build a bigger car, bike, or whatever. In America, that usually results in us choosing bigger because it seems to be a bargain.  Even if it isn't what we may really want. 

Currently, a few examples - the Dullville, as previously mentioned.  Had been available overseas for years. About as old tech as the C10.  The Versys ST/ABS - only overseas.  The Yamaha Fazer (ABS/fairing, topcase, taller w/s, tankbag factory options) Canada & overseas.  V-Strom ABS - close, but marketed as an adv bike, Ninja 1000 - close, no abs or factory bags, Triumph - Tiger 1050, 800 & Sprint ST - all pretty close. BMW - 800cc range.  Some of the other European bikes are interesting.  So the possiblities are out there, and some more cool stuff in the foreign markets.

Ultimately, its a roll-your-own market until the factories see that their is enough market/profit for them to get involved.  The Suzuki SV forums have a section for ST mods.  Pehaps other forums do, too.  Personally, I'd love to seen an SV900ST or SV1000ST - ABS, bags, full sport(y) fairing, adjustable bars, adjustable w/s, adjustable seat height & pegs,  fully adjustable suspension, 5+ gal tank, decent seat(s).  Or a Kawa Ninja 800/1000 with the same options, or the Fazer 8 with the same.  The NT700 replaced by the NT800 with a hot-rod V-twin and the C-ABS off the CBR's.

As it is, nothing out there new is really calling to me.  So I farkle w/ the stuff in the garage.

[MiniCog]

Yup, it's called a Wee-Strom, the bike you didn't know you wanted until you rode one.  Mid-range sport-touring, (but not really dual sport).

pic of mine below:

Exactly.  It's a good bike, I like it, it's just not for me.  I don't know why, but it's just not for me, but it's still a great bike!

[stevewfl]

Suzuki Bergman 650

I heard they don't go far enough between fill-ups to sport-tour, is that true?

[Boomer]

So, ya want a Sports Touring bike that goes like stink, but gets 60+Mpg.
It has to have a big gas tank (=weight) but handle like a dream.
It needs to be able to switch between sporty and touring riding positions at the flick of a switch.
Why not ask for Air-Con and a built in gas stove, kettle, tent and water bed? 

I have dreams too, but some of mine are achievable. 

Nobody is going to build a bike just for you, unless you pay them to, and pay LOTS!
About $10,000,000 should get ya past the design phase and maybe even get ya a prototype.

Yer best bet is to get a bike that is close and do the rest of the mods yerself.
Either that or get a bike that is good enough and just live with it's faults.
It's what we all do, apart from those lucky basts who are exactly the average size/weight. 

[MrFurious]

I'll agree the V-Stroms are great bikes and had I been able to find a good used DL650 relatively close I would have snagged it up before I got the C14.  I still want one as a second bike, or possibly an 800cc BMW or Triumph if I could find a good deal on a used one but both are still to new for that. 

Yes, you can make most any bike into what you want it to be by throwing a ton of money at it, but having done that with my last bike I didn't want to go through all that again.  Trying to find exactly what you want, figuring out how to mount parts that were never designed for the bike, etc.  Trust me, I spent a small fortune having custom saddlebag mounts and a tour-pack mount made for my old Road Star.

I'll also admit that I really like some of the ADV-Touring bikes.  I know most think they're ugly, but I tend to like the euro styling most of them have.  However, for a proper touring bike most fall short in terms of wind/weather protection with their tiny windscreens and minimalistic fairings (if it has a fairing at all).  The engines also seem to be pretty tame by design so they're more manageable off-road.  Probably a good idea if you intend to ride it off-road, but a good gravel road is about as off-road as I get these days. 

[Cholla]

This sounds exactly like when everyone wanted a new UJM. When the factories provided them no one bought them.

[MiniCog]

So, ya want a Sports Touring bike that goes like stink, but gets 60+Mpg.
It has to have a big gas tank (=weight) but handle like a dream.
It needs to be able to switch between sporty and touring riding positions at the flick of a switch.
Why not ask for Air-Con and a built in gas stove, kettle, tent and water bed?

250 Ninja man!  The gas tank for the older ones are good for nearly 300 miles, it handles REALLY REALLY REALLY well, gets 55 MPG at the least (and that's when you're hammering it), usually about 65 MPG, and you can sit up like a sport tourer/standard, and hunker down into the sportier riding position.

It's a win-win!   

[MrFurious]

I'd likely go with another EX500 before I'd go to a 250 Ninja.  My first bike was an `87 EX500 and I rode the sot out of it for two years.  Distance between fill-up's isn't a huge issue as my butt (or lack thereof) usually needs a break after 150 miles in the saddle anyway.  The newer 650 Ninja might be a viable choice as well, but I haven't sat on or ridden one to know how the ergonomics are.

[MiniCog]

I like the Versys and the 650 Ninja as well.  If I were to go for a 650 Ninja, I'd go for and SV650S first (Not the full fairing one though).

[timsatx]

I think ZG has pretty much nailed it. I think the reason you don't see that is that most of those bikes just are not fully capable to go two-up. Riding as a single there are probably many bikes that would work nicely, but throw another 110+ lb person on the back and you lose a lot.