Author Topic: Don't use DOT3, if DOT4 is required :)  (Read 6939 times)

Offline Supatramp

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Don't use DOT3, if DOT4 is required :)
« on: July 10, 2012, 01:27:27 PM »
I popped a rear brake line(don't ask) about a year ago. I replaced it and had a gallon of DOT3, compliments of my former employer. I thought the only difference in 3, 4, and 5 were the temperature ratings(wrong).
The other day as I was pulling into my driveway, the rear peddle bottomed out and had no effect. Although it might have been slid in under warranty, I was able to locate one off Ebay(the whole system, reservoir, hoses, cylinder) for $22 shipped from Florida.
It wouldn't  be worth loading the bike on the truck and doing the 70 mile round trip for that, so I did it myself. $9.50 for a can of DOT4 and for under $35.00, I'm back in business.
I'd probably still be waiting, if I'd taken it to the dealer.
Anyway lesson learned :)


Offline Conrad

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Re: Don't use DOT3, if DOT4 is required :)
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2012, 01:34:18 PM »
What did the DOT3 do to the DOT4 system, eat up the seals or what?
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Don't use DOT3, if DOT4 is required :)
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2012, 02:14:29 PM »
+1  According to what I read, it's not kosher to mix the fluid types....although it seems the real difference is boiling point.  Newer vehicles should be able to get away with it for a short time but the system should be flushed with the correct fluid type (DOT 4).  I haven't seen anything about seals going south but I guess anything could happen.  Additionally, I have read that it's not wise to mix and match fluid makes within the DOT 4 line.  I use Kwak brake fluid, myself.  But on my past bikes and cages I use just about anything (DOT 3) without any ill effects.
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Offline Supatramp

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Re: Don't use DOT3, if DOT4 is required :)
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2012, 02:24:52 PM »
What did the DOT3 do to the DOT4 system, eat up the seals or what?
That's my guess, the master cylinder seal took a dump. It's all flushed out now, so time will tell if anything in the caliper will have a premature life. I bought two cans, so I'll go ahead and flush the fronts out, even though they weren't involved, about due anyhow.

+1  According to what I read, it's not kosher to mix the fluid types....although it seems the real difference is boiling point.  Newer vehicles should be able to get away with it for a short time but the system should be flushed with the correct fluid type (DOT 4).  I haven't seen anything about seals going south but I guess anything could happen.  Additionally, I have read that it's not wise to mix and match fluid makes within the DOT 4 line.  I use Kwak brake fluid, myself.  But on my past bikes and cages I use just about anything (DOT 3) without any ill effects.
The guy at the NAPA store said, "5 can go into 4, but not the reverse", along with more info that I can remember now. As you said, maybe temporarily/emergency usage .
There was never any warning previous to the other day, when the peddle bottomed out. I posted this, so it possibly will save someone else, from getting a diploma for the school of hard knocks.
Safe riding to ya's


Offline T Cro ®

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Re: Don't use DOT3, if DOT4 is required :)
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2012, 03:16:01 PM »
Wow what a host of information here...Too bad it's all wrong! DOT 5 is a Silicone base oil and it most certainly does not mix with DOT 3 or 4 in any order. DOT 3 and 4 are fully compatible with each other in either direction, DOT 4 simply has a higher boiling point than 3 that is all.
Tony P. Crochet
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Offline T Cro ®

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Re: Don't use DOT3, if DOT4 is required :)
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2012, 03:28:01 PM »
How old was the 3 that you used? Likely it was old and had absorbed water even if it had never been used.

I would shy away from using 3 in a system made for 4 due to a loss in boiling point.
Tony P. Crochet
(SOLD) 01 Concours Winner of COG Most Modified in 2010

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Don't use DOT3, if DOT4 is required :)
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2012, 03:29:48 PM »
T is exactly right on the mixing of 5 and anything else.  Definite no no no.

If you can mix 3 and 4, I wonder what happened?  Catastrophic failures of the brake system on the C14 are nearly non-existent.
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Don't use DOT3, if DOT4 is required :)
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2012, 03:32:26 PM »
Wow what a host of information here...Too bad it's all wrong!

If you spent more time here we wouldn't be in such a pickle, would we?
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Offline T Cro ®

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Re: Don't use DOT3, if DOT4 is required :)
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2012, 03:38:05 PM »
If you spent more time here we wouldn't be in such a pickle, would we?

I'll keep that in mind....  ;)
Tony P. Crochet
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Offline jaclaw

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Re: Don't use DOT3, if DOT4 is required :)
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2012, 03:42:02 PM »
The chemical makeup of DOT 3 may be incompatible with the rubber seals that are used and compromise the seal. 

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Don't use DOT3, if DOT4 is required :)
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2012, 03:42:16 PM »
Glad to hear you didn't get hurt and that you solved your problem pretty inexpensively and easily.

I think it was just a coincidence that you used DOT 3 brake fluid and also suffered a hydraulic failure in the same system. As Tony mentioned, DOT 3 and DOT 4 are fully compatible and miscible, the only effective difference is the boiling point. Using DOT 3 in a system calling for DOT 4 would not cause any seal or other soft part failure, it would only allow the brake fluid to boil inside the caliper at a slightly lower temperature. In fact a lot of the available brake fluids are actually marked DOT 3 / DOT 4 meaning they can be used in either system (but the are really DOT 4 fluids due to the boiling point rating).

Also as Tony points out, DOT 3 and DOT 4 brake fluid are compatible but neither one is compatible with DOT 5. The other brake fluid that IS compatible with DOT 3 &4 is DOT 5.1. I know this makes absolutely no sense but the fact is that DOT 5 brake fluid is the odd- ball and does not 'play nicely' with any other brake fluid type.

So- these fluids will mix and vary according to the temperature at which each one boils (the higher the DOT number, the higher the boiling point):

DOT 3
DOT 4
DOT 5.1

They are all polyethylene glycol based, and a higher number can be substituted if a lower number is called for (example: system calls for DOT 3, that system can use DOT 3 or DOT4 or DOT 5.1 fluid) but not the other way- do not substitute a lower number than the system calls for.

DOT 5 brake fluid is silicone based and not compatible nor miscible with any other brake fluid. It can be used in <most> brake systems but the system must be fully flushed of the other type brake fluid before it is used. If the two types are mixed the resulting fluid will turn thick and clog the brake system very possibly making the brakes non- functional. The advantage of this type of brake fluid is that it will not absorb moisture (it is not hydroscopic), and it will not attach paint and plastics like the other fluid types. The downsides include it being slightly more compressible and so resulting in braking systems feeling 'softer', and the fact that it will absorb air making it interesting to bleed a system that uses this material.

Brian



I popped a rear brake line(don't ask) about a year ago. I replaced it and had a gallon of DOT3, compliments of my former employer. I thought the only difference in 3, 4, and 5 were the temperature ratings(wrong).
The other day as I was pulling into my driveway, the rear peddle bottomed out and had no effect. Although it might have been slid in under warranty, I was able to locate one off Ebay(the whole system, reservoir, hoses, cylinder) for $22 shipped from Florida.
It wouldn't  be worth loading the bike on the truck and doing the 70 mile round trip for that, so I did it myself. $9.50 for a can of DOT4 and for under $35.00, I'm back in business.
I'd probably still be waiting, if I'd taken it to the dealer.
Anyway lesson learned :)
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Offline Supatramp

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Re: Don't use DOT3, if DOT4 is required :)
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2012, 04:23:34 PM »
Wow what a host of information here...Too bad it's all wrong!
That's what my primary motive of posting this experience was. I figured with the knowledge of the members that belong to this forum, I'd get a better idea, or what might have occurred.
I believe the fluid I used was in a sealed can(but couldn't swear to that, but it probably had some age to it.)
Glad to hear you didn't get hurt and that you solved your problem pretty inexpensively and easily.
Brian
Hey Brian, how ya been? That was some story of your west to east ride and also glad you came out of it OK.
I was really surprised at how inexpensive, some Connie stuff was going for on Ebay. Certain items, especially the fairing pieces, do hold value.
After reading the comments to my post, I'm leaning to maybe the fluid I used was compromised.
I'm decent about maintaining my vehicles, but far from being a motor head. Another lesson learned and I'll be much more diligent about their brake system fluids being correct and "fresh".


Offline T Cro ®

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Re: Don't use DOT3, if DOT4 is required :)
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2012, 04:50:44 PM »
That's what my primary motive of posting this experience was. I figured with the knowledge of the members that belong to this forum, I'd get a better idea, or what might have occurred.

I believe the fluid I used was in a sealed can (but couldn't swear to that, but it probably had some age to it.)
After reading the comments to my post, I'm leaning to maybe the fluid I used was compromised.

I'm decent about maintaining my vehicles, but far from being a motor head. Another lesson learned and I'll be much more diligent about their brake system fluids being correct and "fresh".

Glad that your taking it all in as an "learning experience" while I don't claim to know everything about everything I may act like it....  ;)

Some of us here have been exposed to bikes long enough to have seen the transition of DOT 3 to 4 and above; myself I just got rid of my first street bike after 30 years I sold a 40 year old Honda....

I see that you also have an HD right? If I'm not mistaken HD uses DOT 5 silicone based brake fluid in their braking systems so be careful there don't mix in 3 or 4 fluid.

As to DOT 3 being fresh.... Well that depends on how long ago it was made as brake fluids such as 3 and 4 are made to absorb water so even sitting on the shelf in a capped container it can still do its thing and absorb water.
Tony P. Crochet
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Offline Fretka

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Re: Don't use DOT3, if DOT4 is required :)
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2012, 05:09:26 PM »
If you spent more time here we wouldn't be in such a pickle, would we?

Or...you could read this post   Change hydraulic oil in the clutch: Kawasaki GTR 1400.
Wretched excess visited upon an innocent C-14

Offline pistole

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Re: Don't use DOT3, if DOT4 is required :)
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2012, 05:45:45 PM »
- Dot 3 and 4 are fully compatible.

- Dot 5 isn't (silicone based fluid - used on some Harleys).

.

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Don't use DOT3, if DOT4 is required :)
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2012, 06:21:07 PM »
Glad that your taking it all in as an "learning experience" while I don't claim to know everything about everything I may act like it....  ;)


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Offline Supatramp

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Re: Don't use DOT3, if DOT4 is required :)
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2012, 06:14:53 AM »
I see that you also have an HD right? If I'm not mistaken HD uses DOT 5 silicone based brake fluid in their braking systems so be careful there don't mix in 3 or 4 fluid.
As to DOT 3 being fresh....  even sitting on the shelf in a capped container it can still do its thing and absorb water.
I'm going to pick up some DOT 5 and do my Harleys system, while I'm on a roll :)
I probably wouldn't have even considered that, so besides my education on DOT 3, 4, & 5, I guess good has come from my little debacle. My father's haunting words, "did ya learn anything", always return at these moments.
While I've ridden and owned bikes since 1964, I don't have near the knowledge a lot of bikers have with half that time. Forums like this one really are amazing, with the help members offer. I'm sure even though my bike is under warranty, it would still be sitting at the dealer, waiting for parts, instead of me riding it and enjoying the great weather we're having.
Thanks everyone for your help, knowledge, and stories, that I read here, ride safe.



Offline cablebandit

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Re: Don't use DOT3, if DOT4 is required :)
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2012, 07:02:16 AM »
- Dot 3 and 4 are fully compatible.

- Dot 5 isn't (silicone based fluid - used on some Harleys).

.

Good to see people read the threads before posting.   :deadhorse:

Offline pistole

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Re: Don't use DOT3, if DOT4 is required :)
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2012, 07:53:40 PM »
- that poor horsey !!

.

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Don't use DOT3, if DOT4 is required :)
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2012, 04:10:46 AM »
He gets used a lot around here...
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