Author Topic: Backfiring into intake  (Read 6208 times)

Offline mdr

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Backfiring into intake
« on: April 07, 2012, 12:28:10 PM »
Don't know what came first here, the backfire or the torn intake duct, aka carb holder (Kaw #16065-1112). 

- Checked (read ok, but worn) and changed the spark plugs, tightened up the plug wires. 
- Checked the valves, and while they were a little out, nothing egregious.  Haven't done a leak down or compression test.
- Fuel level in the bowl is maybe a little low, I think it's because I was running the fuel down (main tank off - just had an aux tank on for checking vacuum sync).  I'll check it again once it cools.
- New OE air filter, oiled. 

While I had the mercury sticks on it, I only saw #1 backfiring, which is the cylinder with the torn boot.  While I had the timing cover off I checked that everything was tight and in the right places. 

Anything else I should check before starting it up with a new boot?  Don't really wanna go $20 on a duct just to mess it up within 5 minutes :(

Thanks, Mark
Mark in Austin
'01 Concours, Vrooomm
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Offline qman

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Re: Backfiring into intake
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2012, 12:49:14 PM »
I'm sure your problem is a result of the torn boot! since you are pulling the carbs to replace the boot you may as well clean em, check the float levels, etc.
  These things are pretty simple and bullet proof.
You didn't say what year it was. Mine's an 86 and I had the backfire problem (miss as well) because the valves were original and had tuliped to the point of almost pulling out of the seats! Fixed it and it's been great.

Offline mdr

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Re: Backfiring into intake
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2012, 02:01:39 PM »
It's in my .sig.  It's an '01 :)

I'm hoping I can just loosen up the air box enough to not have to pull the carbs.  It was running fine other than this recent problem.  Checking fuel levels is quick & easy enough and I plan on doing it once I reconnect the aux fuel tank to check the vacuum sync.

Since the clearances are stable, I don't think it's a valve tulip-ing problem.  Before I button it all up again tho', I may as well make a compression check.  Got the gauges with the correct fitting <I hope> and haven't tried 'em yet, so playing with that toy is overdue!
Mark in Austin
'01 Concours, Vrooomm
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Offline kzz1king

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Re: Backfiring into intake
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2012, 02:33:37 PM »
I had an 86 that ran out of adjustment due to tuliping. Really sucked them in! How many miles on yours before it happened?
Wayne


I'm sure your problem is a result of the torn boot! since you are pulling the carbs to replace the boot you may as well clean em, check the float levels, etc.
  These things are pretty simple and bullet proof.
You didn't say what year it was. Mine's an 86 and I had the backfire problem (miss as well) because the valves were original and had tuliped to the point of almost pulling out of the seats! Fixed it and it's been great.
2010 CONCOURS
1974 Z-1

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Backfiring into intake
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2012, 09:28:26 AM »
valve tuluping ONLY occured on 1986, and a few 1987 bikes, it was corrected that year.
I tend to think you may have an issue with a combination of the split boot, and a bad sparkplug wire, along with a possible low speed circuit clog and/or high float level in that carb. Everytime a tank is removed, the fuel does get stirred up, and can cause contaminants to go to the "aorta"....

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline mdr

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Re: Backfiring into intake
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2012, 10:02:30 AM »
Holder is replaced.  Still doin' it, just on #1...

Fuel level is a little about the split, but only about 1mm.  Still ~spec.

Double checked the boots and holder seal.  Looked ok.  Didn't pull it out, but poking around at the slide diaphragm, I didn't see anything like a split.  Seems sealed well in the slot and otherwise ok.

Seems to idle ok.   Passed vacuum sync.  Got 'em all adjusted within 1cm at idle (~1300RPM).  At ~3kRPM all cylinders stayed within 2cm, with pretty much the same relationships between cylinders, so it seems there's no longer a vacuum leak.

I only saw it backfire just off idle speed.  I didn't see it happen at ~3kRPM, but it's all at no load, so I'm not sure how the main and idle/pilot jets interact at that operating point. 

I'm thinking MoB's got it with a (partially?) blocked idle passage.  A shot of carb cleaner up it's nose (aka pilot screw) might bust it loose enough - after it cools off.  Then a dose of fresh gas, Seafoam and a good romp should do wonders - or break more stuff.  >:(

Maybe some gunk on the intake valve or cylinder setting off the charge as it's coming in.  When I replaced that plug it wasn't carbon'd up, so I'm not sure that makes sense.  It's not knocking either... 

Anything else?
Mark in Austin
'01 Concours, Vrooomm
My "Tech Page"
http://www.randols.net/Connie/index.html

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Backfiring into intake
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2012, 12:38:53 PM »
Possibly a bad spark plug, or the wire is not completely on that plug?

Is it actually backfiring, or popping, (firing intermittenly)?

If so, check the float height, particularly on number 1.
But like MOB sez,,, blocked idle jett or passage.

Ride safe, Ted

Offline kzz1king

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Re: Backfiring into intake
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2012, 04:38:34 PM »
[ Everytime a tank is removed, the fuel does get stirred up, and can cause contaminants to go to the "aorta"....
[/quote]


That one got me this spring. I had the carbs out for the 2 min mod,did exhaust cam sprocket and other things. I WAS going to drain and rinse the tank but the weather got nice to fast and well pay now or pay later! Runs like a bandit now though.
Wayne
2010 CONCOURS
1974 Z-1

Offline mdr

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Re: Backfiring into intake
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2012, 09:48:53 AM »
OK, updates.  Pulled the carbs to check the idle passage.  #1 was at least mostly blocked, #2 was getting there, 3 & 4 were ok.  Seems normal :(  All ok now.  I did notice the washer and o-ring were reversed <needle - spring - o-ring - washer? No!>, but I'm thinking it happened when I tried sticking the carb cleaner hose in there before I looked in.  They're now in properly <needle - spring - washer - o-ring>  So I think the carbs are according to Hoyle now.

Air box...  The boots were being a pain so I got new ones.  They didn't seem lots better than what I have, so I'm going to take them back.  BUT I decided to pull the air box to try pulling the boots into place then installing the carbs...  Well, I noticed some problems with the air box.  That front lower seam is starting to let go.  Between #1 & 2 there's about a 1/2 mm gap.  <sigh>   Time for the search button...

Also noticed the 'rail' in the front of the air box that connects the crankcase vent to the 'clean half' of the air box is 'open' at the same area, allowing the 'un-clean' air to get sucked in.  Is that normal?  Need a picture?
Mark in Austin
'01 Concours, Vrooomm
My "Tech Page"
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Offline kzz1king

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Re: Backfiring into intake
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2012, 11:30:04 AM »
It is one of those "they all do that " thing. Both of my airboxs were cracked. I sealed it up with JB I think. When I did my 01 it was cracked so I swaped the box out with the one from my 86 when I removed the cards. You should fix it as it can effect tuning and allow unfiltered air in.
Wayne
2010 CONCOURS
1974 Z-1

Offline mdr

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Re: Backfiring into intake
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2012, 12:15:47 PM »
To clarify, the 'rail' I'm talking about is on the inside of the box, right by where the seam that opens up is.
Mark in Austin
'01 Concours, Vrooomm
My "Tech Page"
http://www.randols.net/Connie/index.html

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Backfiring into intake
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2012, 02:54:37 PM »
OK, updates.  Pulled the carbs to check the idle passage.  #1 was at least mostly blocked, #2 was getting there, 3 & 4 were ok.  Seems normal :(  All ok now.  I did notice the washer and o-ring were reversed <needle - spring - o-ring - washer? No!>, but I'm thinking it happened when I tried sticking the carb cleaner hose in there before I looked in.  They're now in properly <needle - spring - washer - o-ring>  So I think the carbs are according to Hoyle now.



good catch Bro, thank you for going back in there, and completing the job.... :thumbs: :thumbs:
lotsa folks wouldn't have done that, and even though Bubba Steve and I TRY to make folks do these things, we often fall short, and just sigh...
Good job man, you now know why we stress this stuff.... ;)

might want to pick up an airbox on Ebay...
it's kind of funny, we are now seeing a lot of split ones, they must have had a "time sensitive lifespan", because even though I have seen a couple, they are becoming more prevalent.....


...sick note to self...."MOB...buy every airbox you see on e-bay....wise hoarding will be fruitful..."

Just kidding, I wouldn't do that, But Bubba and I have seen people that did this many years ago.....heheheheehh
(we called them out on it, and they don't come around here anymore....)   ;)

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline mdr

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Re: Backfiring into intake
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2012, 05:02:45 PM »
I don't think the o-ring and washer were reversed when it was back firing.  I think I did it mucking about with them since it's a recent development.  It's not like they'll swap places while you're riding :)

I'm looking around for adhesives that'll do PP.  There are some, but it looks like they may be 'special'.  That means expensive or you get 5 gallons of it when you need 5 ounces.  It does look like it was welded together originally.  If it was metal I'd say the penetration was insufficient.

Maybe I'll swing by a body shop and see if they'll weld or glue it for a couple bucks during 'filler time'.  I hear ads for 'repair the bumper, don't replace it' places.  Since I don't really care much what it looks like, and it's not an insurance job...

Weighing my options.  I have gotten to hating pulling carbs and don't wanna do it to fix something I 'half fixed'.  I'm gonna go take some pics, particularly of the inside.  I'm wondering if the separation I'm seeing inside is normal.
Mark in Austin
'01 Concours, Vrooomm
My "Tech Page"
http://www.randols.net/Connie/index.html

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Backfiring into intake
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2012, 06:15:53 PM »
....
I'm looking around for adhesives that'll do PP.  There are some, but it looks like they may be 'special'.  That means expensive or you get 5 gallons of it when you need 5 ounces.  It does look like it was welded together originally.  If it was metal I'd say the penetration was insufficient.

....

I'll tell ya there is nothing that sticks to polyPro, and that is simply the way that plastic works....it was designed to be slippery.... skis have that material (P-Tex) as the base material, and even though you could "bond" filler material to the base material to fill gouges and scrapes, welding the stuff is a nightmare.

I'll simply say, as rediculous as this sounds, adhesive backed foil tape, or ordinary duct tape, applied to the surface after it is completely degreased using BrakeKleen, is the best solution. Yeah it sounds rediculous and crude, but it works. Unless you go along both flat surfaces and drill a bunch of small hole for the adhesive to bond like mushrooms, thru for retention, and then imbed screening into the adhesive (JB WELD works well, but will need help) nothing will last forever sticking to the outer surface only.

If you reallllly want to experiment with this, I'll give you a hint...
remove the box, clean it inside and out meticulously with BrakeKleen. ALLOW THIS TO COMPLETLY AIR OUT,....then take a "Hefty trash can liner" Bag and twist it up into a "rope". then, tie the liner into very tight knots, spaced closely together, to create a dense material to be used as "weld stock".
(ACTUALLY DRY CLEANING BAGS WORK BEST FOR THIS....THEY BURN AND DRIP BETTER...)
place a piece of metalic foil tape inside surface of the split. leaving a bit of a gap for material introduced from the outside surface to fill into.

Working safely OUTDOORS. with a bernz-o-matic torch running nearby as an ignition source, light the "rope" you made from the trashcan liner on fire, and drip the flaming droplets into the split area to fill the crack, blowing out the flames as they hit and fill the crack...kinda like dripping drops of candle wax....but they are burning...it's dangerous, but it will work, just keep your concentration on the task. Drip the flaming gooobers into the groove, and immediatly blow out the flames, repeating the process to fill the groove.This is very dangerous, and dripping molten burning plastic on your arm, or the floor, may result in bad, bad things.....think this over, and figure if you want to try this. If you consider what I'm saying, and can figure the process out, best of luck, because you will have conquered the problem and fixed the box....even though what I have written here is going to be controversial, and may result in major scar tissue..... ;D ;)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 11:47:32 AM by MAN OF BLUES »

46 YEARS OF KAW.....  47 years of DEVO..

Offline kzz1king

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Re: Backfiring into intake
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2012, 09:21:46 PM »
MOB, you have me wanting to run out to the garage and check the JB on mine! If using tape I have had good results using a light shot of 3M sprayglue on both the tape and the surface being bonded. My portable ice fishing shack has patches of duct tape glued on this way that has lasted years. It was also the way we sealed poly sheets together when I did asbestos abatement. It is what I will try if my JB gives up on me.
Wayne
2010 CONCOURS
1974 Z-1

Offline mdr

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Re: Backfiring into intake
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2012, 04:22:01 PM »
No flaming goobers, but I may have found something that works?!

Loctite Plastics Bonding System, bought at Home Depot for US$3.77 + Perry's cut.
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/sg_plstc/overview/Loctite-Plastics-Bonding-System.htm

Don't know how low it'll stay, but it seems to have bonded well. 

I'll let it set for awhile and maybe put a little RTV around it for additional sealing.  While cleaning it out, there did seem to be some sealer on the inside of the seam.  AFAIK the air box has never been messed with - unless it was the mechanically challenged PO or likewise addled dealer.  They did lots of strange things, so maybe...
Mark in Austin
'01 Concours, Vrooomm
My "Tech Page"
http://www.randols.net/Connie/index.html

Offline kzz1king

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Re: Backfiring into intake
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2012, 07:25:10 PM »
It will work fine I think. I had some stuff off of mine today chasing gremlins and the JB is looking very good. It has been 4 years I think. I worked mine through the crack so it bonds on both sides. One could drill holes like MOB mentioned.
Wayne
2010 CONCOURS
1974 Z-1

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Backfiring into intake
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2012, 11:36:42 AM »
I'm repairing one now.
I'm planning to use a section of aluminum Angle on it, pop riveted in place.
With the angle I can pull the crack closed before I install the rivets.
I plan to use RTV to seal everything before I install the angle.

Any problem with my plan?

Ride safe, Ted

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Backfiring into intake
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2012, 05:19:52 AM »
I'm repairing one now.
I'm planning to use a section of aluminum Angle on it, pop riveted in place.
With the angle I can pull the crack closed before I install the rivets.
I plan to use RTV to seal everything before I install the angle.

Any problem with my plan?

Ride safe, Ted

  IMO that's the only reliable way to repair the airbox - once and for all - Steve

Offline connie_rider

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Re: Backfiring into intake
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2012, 04:37:14 PM »
Thanx.

Ride safe, Ted