Author Topic: 2008 C14 First Valve check at 37K -- Got My Bike Back From Dealer Today !!!  (Read 32302 times)

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 2008 C14 First Valve check at 37K
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2012, 01:14:12 PM »
Yes, that is very true and another big problem going by sound is which of the 16 valves is making how much of the noise? Put another way, can anyone realistically pick the [too quiet] valve out of all 16 on a running engine? I don't think so. And three or four overly loose and therefore noisy valves will overcome any number of quiet ones.

Just my opinion but I don't think any of us can know what the clearances are really like in any engine unless an actual measurement is made.

Brian

"noisy" is rather hard to quantify in the context of casual discussion. Everybody is likely to have a different idea of what a noisy valve sounds like vs a quiet one. Additionally it takes a good, trained ear to distinguish from the various sounds coming from an engine.

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Offline jsa

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Re: 2008 C14 First Valve check at 37K
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2012, 11:37:53 PM »
The clearance has to be -0- or less than zero to risk burning a valve. As long as there is any clearance in the valve train at all, the valve will seat and cool. When a valve cannot seat at any time during the running cycles, the only way left for that valve to cool is through the valve stem, which is a lousy way to transfer heat (from a large area down a small shaft), or through induction cooling, another poor way to try to keep a valve's temp. within acceptable bounds. So in reality, as long as there is -some- clearance the valve face will rest on the valve seat and transfer heat away. This is not a linear thing at all- the temp. of the valve will not rise appreciably as the clearance becomes less and less until it becomes zero at which time the valve will get extremely hot, and possibly hot enough to actually melt the edge where the valve is thinnest (this is what we call a 'burned valve').

Agree....but you are referring to the necessary clearance after the valves are hot.  My question is how much clearance is actually needed when the valves are cold in order to achieve the zero (or slightly larger) clearance to prevent burning when the valves heat up to normal operating temperatures.  I have never seen any data on how much the clearances actually change going from cold to hot but it doesn't seem to be much on a modern water cooled engine.

Offline JhVenezuela

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Re: 2008 C14 First Valve check at 37K
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2012, 07:26:14 AM »
it's a waste of time and money to check them anywhere near what the factory recommends.

+1

Offline lather

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Re: 2008 C14 First Valve check at 37K
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2012, 07:59:57 AM »
Yes, that is very true and another big problem going by sound is which of the 16 valves is making how much of the noise? Put another way, can anyone realistically pick the [too quiet] valve out of all 16 on a running engine? I don't think so. And three or four overly loose and therefore noisy valves will overcome any number of quiet ones.

Just my opinion but I don't think any of us can know what the clearances are really like in any engine unless an actual measurement is made.

Brian
I agree with that. But I think careful listening is a useful tool in deciding how long to stretch the interval.
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Offline ridingfar

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Re: 2008 C14 First Valve check at 37K
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2012, 11:55:31 AM »
Two thoughts:

"On the flip side, last fall another FJR rider did actually burn valves at 50K, the first water cooled engine that I had heard of, but he had never done a valve check."

    - Water cooling and valve burning are not directly related. It is true that water cooling provides a much narrower range of operating temperatures and permit closer tolerences because there is less heat related metal expansion. How much expansion of these parts occurs from heat you ask? Look at the diference in clearence for an intake valve, which is cooled additionally by the incomming air/fuel mixture, and the exhaust valve, which is not.

Also remember that the whole point of valve clearence is when the engine is in it's correct temperature operating range to balance between having the valves close fully and, on the other extream, to have the cam not move so far away from the bucket on the closed/round side that the cam lobe will slam against the bucket when it swings back around to open the valve.

An engine has a tollerence range, and since the cam to bucket interface is "protected" by a film of oil the impact of the cam lobe on the bucket is cushioned and lubricated - that tends to be where the "slop" in the operation occurs (as opposed to valves not closing fully). The cam to bucket impact has to be pretty significnt before the oil film is stripped away and metal to metal contact and wear occurs. This is why loose valves are genterally considered to be less of an immediate risk to the engine than tight/not fully colosing valves, both can cause damage but one generally takes longer. Remember too that because heat is the quickest variable to change  that a valve that is "tight" but still fully closing at normal operating temperatures may not seal fully and start to burn (erode valve material) on a hot day while you're blasting up a mountain and using a lot of throttle....


Agree....but you are referring to the necessary clearance after the valves are hot.  My question is how much clearance is actually needed when the valves are cold in order to achieve the zero (or slightly larger) clearance to prevent burning when the valves heat up to normal operating temperatures.  I have never seen any data on how much the clearances actually change going from cold to hot but it doesn't seem to be much on a modern water cooled engine.

    - Valves can burn even when there is COLD cam to bucket clearance IF the expansion of the parts reduces that clearence to less than zero and results in a valve not fully closing. And to augment Brain's info - valves burn from not closing fully due to BOTH heat not being transfered from the valve to the valve seat AND from the hot exhaust gasses flowing around the valve (as they excape) during the entire combustion process (as opposed to the relitively cooler post combustion gases passing the exhaust valve during the exhaust upstroke of the piston). This is why exhaust valves are more typically the ones that get burnt, and not the intake valves.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 01:26:39 PM by ridingfar »

Offline alexx45

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Re: 2008 C14 First Valve check at 37K
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2012, 12:06:19 PM »
I have not had mine checked yet, but I'm at 29,000 miles and plan to soon.  But I will confirm what has been said.  Two different dealers in Houston have told me it's a waste of time and money to check them anywhere near what the factory recommends.  I don't actually recall what one of them told me as it's been quite a while ago.  The other one told me that at the 26,000 miles I had on it at the time that it might not be a bad idea to have them checked, but they don't expect to find any out of spec.  BTW, the service manager at that dealer owns an 08 Concours, and the parts manager owns a ZX-14.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: 2008 C14 First Valve check at 37K
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2012, 04:00:17 PM »
True, the <real> clearance is important when the engine is hot but even hot is a relative word. The valves will be a lot higher in temperature on a bike climbing a long grade, heavily loaded, than they are on a bike gently riding down the street at 55 MPH with no appreciable weight or load.

The key here is temperature, or more accurately, the temperature difference between the valves and the head.

<caution: technical explanation ahead   :D  >

Aluminum has twice the expansion rate of steel (13 millionths of an inch, per inch, per degree F vs. 6.5 millionths of an inch, per inch, per degree F) and if we assume the valve length to be approximately the same as the head height to under the cam bearings (it is not but pretty close) then we can predict the change in clearance pretty well.... kind of. Let's take ambient or 'cold' temperature to be 70F, and a head that is up to temperature of 230F. That means if the head is 2" tall, and increases in temp. by 160F then the head increases in height about ( 160 * 2 * 13 X 10^-6) 0.00416" or approx. 4 thousandths of an inch. We would have to assume the head is all at the same temperature (it is not but close enough) and does not change much under usage (again, close enough on a water cooled engine) and the change in head height would increase valve lash by ~ 0.004". Now for the valve expansion which is far more tricky: we could assume they are a constant temperature but they are NOT and are much hotter toward the valve end than they are on the tappet end. Also, as the engine produces more power (is under more load), the valves run considerably hotter than when the engine is lightly loaded. In fact, all poppet valve engines will have the exhaust valve glow (at least 900F) under extreme load such as a max. effort. dyno. run or top speed run. So guessing the valve's average temperature under varying load and across its entire length is pretty much impossible really. And here comes the really interesting part: if the valve is less than about 400 F average, then the valve train clearance will actually INCREASE from cold! At, say, 350F (again, average temperature as the 'business' end of the valve will always be hotter than that) we would have: ((350-70) * 6.5 X 10^-6 * 2) = 0.00364" or approx. one- half thousandth less expansion than the head (0.0005"). As the valve temp. increases, the clearance will again reach the same level as it was cold, (approx. 400F average), and then as it rises still further, valve lash would continue to decrease. I would assume that Kawasaki picked a clearance based on a temperature the valves <cannot> ever reach and therefore the lash should not ever go to -0- or less (less being a valve that is 'hung open' all the time). By the way, as exhaust valves run hotter than intake valves, that is the reason why the lash value is always larger on exhaust valves than it is on intake valves- they simply do not expand as much because they do not get as hot.

I guess the really important question is how low can the valve lash be under the worst condition? Also it must be mentioned that momentarily hanging a valve open is not necessarily a problem because it would not be held there long enough to get hot enough to melt. In other words, if a couple of exhaust valves hung open for a few seconds during a drag race it would <probably> not be a problem. It is the continuous use of engines under high power output situations that tend to burn valves- road vehicles are generally not a problem but boats and especially aircraft have been problematic in that area for decades.

But in the end, I doubt there is much risk of 1) the valves really reaching -0- lash or below under any street riding circumstances and 2) the actual lash is not really important as long as there is at least some (as opposed to none) and it is not a ridiculous amount- 0.050" (fifth thousandths of an inch) or approaching 1/16" is far too much clearance and would pound the valve train to death pretty quickly but then again that would be closer to carpentry tolerances than precision engine dimensions.

Brian


Agree....but you are referring to the necessary clearance after the valves are hot.  My question is how much clearance is actually needed when the valves are cold in order to achieve the zero (or slightly larger) clearance to prevent burning when the valves heat up to normal operating temperatures.  I have never seen any data on how much the clearances actually change going from cold to hot but it doesn't seem to be much on a modern water cooled engine.
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Offline jsa

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Re: 2008 C14 First Valve check at 37K
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2012, 04:22:27 PM »
True, the <real> clearance is important when the engine is hot but even hot is a relative word. The valves will be a lot higher in temperature on a bike climbing a long grade, heavily loaded, than they are on a bike gently riding down the street at 55 MPH with no appreciable weight or load.

The key here is temperature, or more accurately, the temperature difference between the valves and the head.

<caution: technical explanation ahead   :D  >


Very interesting....................................thank you!

Offline curly

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Re: 2008 C14 First Valve check at 37K
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2012, 12:47:51 PM »
Very good info here, but I still wonder why in this day and age of vast internal combustion technology does any engine need adjustable valves? As I understand it hydraulic valves produce less horsepower than conventional valve set-ups.

I can see where the squids and tuners would want the conventional set-up but why does a sport-tourer need it?
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Offline ridingfar

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Re: 2008 C14 First Valve check at 37K
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2012, 08:39:11 AM »
Very good info here, but I still wonder why in this day and age of vast internal combustion technology does any engine need adjustable valves? As I understand it hydraulic valves produce less horsepower than conventional valve set-ups.

I can see where the squids and tuners would want the conventional set-up but why does a sport-tourer need it?

Mechanical valve actuation, vs. hydraulic, permits higher RPM and, most importantly with an interference engine design, better control of the valves/less "float" at high RPM.

Do you "need" mechanical valve actuation on a S-T bike? No, but then you can't ever have too much power.... ;)

Goldwing's have hydraulic valves... ::)

Offline wally_games

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Discussed it with the service manager at my dealer yesterday. He said their experience has been that you really don't need it until 22-25k miles. He thinks 15k is too early.
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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The Ninja 900 engine was the ancestor to the Concours 1000 engine -- nothing in common with the C14 engine (different engine families)  The Ninja and subsequent family engines used forked cam followers with threaded valve adjusters which was a very poor design that had to be adjusted often and caused accelerated cam wear because of faulty valve geometry and sketchy cam metallurgy. ....Shim-under-bucket valve tappets are lightyears superior to that design and that is why Kawasaki finally incorporated it into the current engines.  The Ninja engines while strong performers also made tons of valve train racket hence the nickname "Rock-crushers"  Additionally those engines had problems with cam chain adjusters that contributed to that "nom de plume."

well, actually there existed a 20 year run of another bike, based on that "crude and atiquated design" called "The Original Concours", ZG1000 / GTR1000. Frankly you generalize this as a pitfall, but there was only one year where Valve metalurgy was faulty (introduction year 1986), and the original design lasted, and still lasts today, a bunch of people called "The Concours Owners Group" can attest to its reliability. ;)
Cam metalurgy problems can a do pop up even today, so laying it all on the valve adjust mechanism is rediculous. The Original Conni required attention around 12k miles, and subsequent adjusts /inspections could begin getting stretched to 20k point after 2 or 3 initial adjustments. The adjustment was a piece of cake, compared to the shim under bucket, which requires a huge skill set for the novice mechanic to undertake, combined with tools not normally in most folks boxes, and a lot of patiance and due dilligence to complete correctly, less the engine will be traumatized. Thereafter, inspect/adjust is substantially easier once maps were made, but still you ain't accomplishing it in an afternoon.

The clearance has to be -0- or less than zero to risk burning a valve. As long as there is any clearance in the valve train at all, the valve will seat and cool.....
..... until it becomes zero at which time the valve will get extremely hot, and possibly hot enough to actually melt the edge where the valve is thinnest (this is what we call a 'burned valve').

Brian

Lets not forget there are 2 types of valves, exhaust, which will "burn" when they are hanging open, and INTAKE... which will not likely burn, but cause extreme carbon fouling and probable piston damage as a result of said fouling, when the buildup becomes thick enough to pinch. Doesn't take that long to occur, we already have had someone post of this problem (carbon buildup and piston fracture) which I noted during his post mortum from his dealers findings was likely caused by this very syndrome.

Just my opinion but I don't think any of us can know what the clearances are really like in any engine unless an actual measurement is made.
Brian
No truer words could be spoken on this. It IS gospel.

.....Look at the diference in clearence for an intake valve, which is cooled additionally by the incomming air/fuel mixture, and the exhaust valve, which is not.
......Also remember that the whole point of valve clearence is when the engine is in it's correct temperature operating range to balance between having the valves close fully and, on the other extream, to have the cam not move so far away from the bucket on the closed/round side that the cam lobe will slam against the bucket when it swings back around to open the valve........
.....Valves can burn even when there is COLD cam to bucket clearance IF the expansion of the parts reduces that clearence to less than zero and results in a valve not fully closing. And to augment Brain's info - valves burn from not closing fully due to BOTH heat not being transfered from the valve to the valve seat AND from the hot exhaust gasses flowing around the valve (as they excape) during the entire combustion process (as opposed to the relitively cooler post combustion gases passing the exhaust valve during the exhaust upstroke of the piston). This is why exhaust valves are more typically the ones that get burnt, and not the intake valves.[/b]

In truth, the specified clearances cold, which allow correct clearance hot, are not designed to "keep the cam from slamming the bucket", but to prevent the bucket from floating enough to allow the shim below, to move and be displaced. The "wiping" action of the cam on the bucket is just that, the most violent activity really is when @ high rpm, the cam leaves the bucket face (as the valve is closing) and the valve under terrific spring presure and inertia slams home against the seat.
...your comment "(as opposed to the relitively cooler post combustion gases passing the exhaust valve during the exhaust upstroke of the piston). This is why exhaust valves are more typically the ones that get burnt, and not the intake valves"... does not apply, this is a 4 stroke engine, during the exhaust upstroke the only valve open is the exhaust.
With this noted, I again say intake valve hanging open will carbon the whole thing up. But if you can burn an intake valve on this engine, you definatly have/had a problem well before that occurs, and the bike will likely not have performed in any manner acceptable or "without knowing" there was an issue. Intake valves just don't ever burn compared to exhaust ones today.

Goldwing's have hydraulic valves... ::)

and they redline where? and rev how fast?  8)

Discussed it with the service manager at my dealer yesterday. He said their experience has been that you really don't need it until 22-25k miles. He thinks 15k is too early.

When all is said and done, and seeing you are riding a 2011, and not a '08 (made in 2007) first year production machine, you may be closer to safe with his opinions than those of us that stuck out $14k on the "infancy" of this machine, where "iffy" and "varied" tolerances during manufacture occured. I think K may have it dialed in now, but some of us had to make sure, and many of us feel it was wise to do the interval (note I said WE did the job, not a dealer) to insure we were satisfied.

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Offline ZedHed

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MOB -- if you will reread my post, I did say that the Ninja was the progenitor to the Concours 1000 (ZG1000) engine.  I bought a new 2002 C10 and when I performed the 600 mile valve check, my cams were already scuffed and by 5000 miles, the cams were beginning to pit and had places where the hardened surface had worn through.  This was a VERY common occurrence in all years of the 1st Gen Concours engines and it was thoroughly discussed on the old forum.

I had a lot of experience with the 1st gen Honda VFRs and they had the exact same issues and an engineering  analysis revealed faulty rocker geometry, 2 heavy valves springs acting on a single cam lobe and lack of upper oiling led to rapid cam wear.

That said, I have personally observed many high mileage C10s despite the cam pitting problems, so it didn't really reduce reliability to an appreciable degree.
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Offline Cheesecake

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I find it difficult to believe that so many valves stay in spec. On my 2008, I did my first adjustment at 24,700 miles. I had 8 that went to the next shim step down, 7 that went two shim sizes down, and one went four shim sizes smaller! Went from a #20 shim to a #10. Not a single valve was in spec.
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Offline Pokey

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I find it difficult to believe that so many valves stay in spec. On my 2008, I did my first adjustment at 24,700 miles. I had 8 that went to the next shim step down, 7 that went two shim sizes down, and one went four shim sizes smaller! Went from a #20 shim to a #10. Not a single valve was in spec.

Most doing it themselves find them out of spec, it is the stealerships that claim them to still be in spec. ;)
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Offline C14-Pilot

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Most doing it themselves find them out of spec, it is the stealerships that claim them to still be in spec. ;)


I don't see why the Dealership would have lied to me about the valve clearance being within spec.
He could have charged me alot more if they were in spec and He told me they were all out of spec and He
had to adjust them all. I went by the shop each day and I looked at the bike while He had it tore down so
I know that he did the work.

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Offline lather

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Seems to me your story is one of the fairly rare ones where the dealer treats the customer right.
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Offline So Cal Joe

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Seems to me your story is one of the fairly rare ones where the dealer treats the customer right.
There are several posts on this thread where a dealer told them not to get it done at 15,000 miles. Seems a lot of honest dealers out there. I'll find out what  my dealer says in 2,000 miles when I have to get it done. I just can't see them telling anyone not to spend money when the book calls for it.

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Offline ridingfar

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There are several posts on this thread where a dealer told them not to get it done at 15,000 miles. Seems a lot of honest dealers out there. I'll find out what  my dealer says in 2,000 miles when I have to get it done. I just can't see them telling anyone not to spend money when the book calls for it.

A - Performing a valve check and adjustment involves removing/moving lots of pieces and parts, is time consuming and tedious, and ties up shop space that could be used for for quicker and more profitable jobs.

B - The job is spec’ed too low for labor hours, especially if the cams are pulled and shims replaced, and there is lots of opportunity for screw ups in the removal and reassembly of all those pieces and parts, so there’s more potential risk of a dealer further loosing time/money fixing things after the fact.

C – The risk to the dealer for deferring the job is low as “most” bikes will withstand the longer interval without damage (you all ARE getting it in writing that the dealer recommended NOT following the recommended service interval, aren’t you?). The risk to you may be greater, as you bought the bike with your money, you’re the one who will have to successfully make the case to get the warranty authorized if something bad results, and you’ll be without the bike between the time that something bad happens and it gets fixed and returned to you again.

D – Rationalizing that a dealer would not turn down your money may be incorrect if their perspective is that they’re minimizing losing money on this job by reducing the times it has to be performed.

In the end you make your choices and pay your money. The right choice *for you* is the one with which you are comfortable.

Offline roadie

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Guess I'm a glutton for punishment.  I can't wait to do it again.  I think I had about as much fun tearing it down as I do riding it.  Albeit it was down a long time the first time i pulled the 15K mx, but I've got the benefit of having it done once under my belt now, so should go quicker.  I can't seem to remember off the top of my head, but think maybe 1 was in spec.  Its documented here somewhere in this forum. I agree, it IS risky, but the Zen of it makes it worthwhile.
Will