Author Topic: Muzzy/Autotune install question  (Read 8035 times)

Offline wildnphx

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Muzzy/Autotune install question
« on: January 12, 2012, 12:41:13 PM »
I am purchasing a full Muzzy system and the Autotune to go with my PCV but Muzzy is saying that I need qty 2-  O2 Bungs is that correct or is only one needed for Autotune module?

Also Muzzy has no idea were to weld the O2 bungs for Concours so any pictures of how where you guys have weld them would be helpful.

Thanks,

-Kirk

Offline ZG

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Re: Muzzy/Autotune install question
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2012, 01:01:15 PM »
I'm curious why you're adding an Autotune? The PCV can have multiple maps that you can toggle between if you want better mileage or power etc...
 
I have the full Muzzys dual system with PCV, but no auto tune, am I missing out on something to better my setup?  ???

Offline gPink

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Re: Muzzy/Autotune install question
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2012, 03:38:21 PM »
Is Muzzy's full system a true two into two system or is there a crossover or collector?

Offline BudCallaghan

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Re: Muzzy/Autotune install question
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2012, 06:00:48 PM »
I am purchasing a full Muzzy system and the Autotune to go with my PCV but Muzzy is saying that I need qty 2-  O2 Bungs is that correct or is only one needed for Autotune module?

Also Muzzy has no idea were to weld the O2 bungs for Concours so any pictures of how where you guys have weld them would be helpful.

The reason Muzzy is telling you that two O2 sensors are needed is to enable sampling the exhaust from two pair of cylinders rather than from a single pair.  Their system is a 4-2-2 and two are required to monitor each pair of cylinders as their design divides the four header pipes into two.  With only one O2 sensor you can only get a reading from the two cylinders that feed into the pipe with the O2 sensor installed.  In my opinion Muzzy is wrong and two are not necessary as a single O2 sensor monitors the combined exhaust from two cylinders and provided the engine is in good shape all of the cylinders will require the same fuel air mixture.  This is what is happening when the bike is stock or when it is modified with the Power Commander V, they all get the same mixture regardless of any differences between cylinders.  The Autotune is designed to use one O2 sensor and does not provide a means of utilizing two of them.  So one it will have to be.  I suggest hanging the Muzzy headers on the bike to enable finding the most convenient and "out of harm's way" place to weld the O2 sensor bung.  Don't overlook the route the wiring must follow.  Drill the appropriate size hole, weld the bung in place and install the whole exhaust system and you're good to go.

I'm curious why you're adding an Autotune? The PCV can have multiple maps that you can toggle between if you want better mileage or power etc...
 
I have the full Muzzys dual system with PCV, but no auto tune, am I missing out on something to better my setup?   ???

Jay, you are correct in stating that the PCV allows switching maps on the fly.  However, you can only carry two maps onboard.  Granted, the PCV can accommodate as many maps as your computer can hold but only two can be used when the bike is not attached to your computer.  You and I have the same bike with different exhausts.  Yours is the Muzzy dual system and mine uses the stock headers and a single Two Brothers canister.  I estimate that both systems will operate just about the same until very high rpm's are reached and the throttle bodies are almost fully opened.  Then yours will most likely flow more freely.  We both have a PCV installed but mine is also equipped with Autotune.  I have a toggle switch that allows me to choose between any map I wish to have loaded in the PCV and the "on the fly" map adjustments the Autotune provides.  The advantage of the Autotune is that it allows one to modify the fuel air requirements for any engine speed and/or throttle opening.  When the bike is running the Autotune will modify the mixture according to the reading from the O2 sensor and give you the fuel/air mixture dictated by the bike's needs at that moment.  It's purely a matter of personal choice but I prefer to have a fuel/air mixture the engine requires at any given time to having it set to solely follow one of the two maps installed in the PCV.

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Offline ZG

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Re: Muzzy/Autotune install question
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2012, 06:54:12 PM »
Jay, you are correct in stating that the PCV allows switching maps on the fly.  However, you can only carry two maps onboard.  Granted, the PCV can accommodate as many maps as your computer can hold but only two can be used when the bike is not attached to your computer.  You and I have the same bike with different exhausts.  Yours is the Muzzy dual system and mine uses the stock headers and a single Two Brothers canister.  I estimate that both systems will operate just about the same until very high rpm's are reached and the throttle bodies are almost fully opened.  Then yours will most likely flow more freely.  We both have a PCV installed but mine is also equipped with Autotune.  I have a toggle switch that allows me to choose between any map I wish to have loaded in the PCV and the "on the fly" map adjustments the Autotune provides.  The advantage of the Autotune is that it allows one to modify the fuel air requirements for any engine speed and/or throttle opening.  When the bike is running the Autotune will modify the mixture according to the reading from the O2 sensor and give you the fuel/air mixture dictated by the bike's needs at that moment.  It's purely a matter of personal choice but I prefer to have a fuel/air mixture the engine requires at any given time to having it set to solely follow one of the two maps installed in the PCV.

That makes sense BC, thanks for explaining it!

Offline wildnphx

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Re: Muzzy/Autotune install question
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2012, 08:17:35 PM »
The reason Muzzy is telling you that two O2 sensors are needed is to enable sampling the exhaust from two pair of cylinders rather than from a single pair.  Their system is a 4-2-2 and two are required to monitor each pair of cylinders as their design divides the four header pipes into two.  With only one O2 sensor you can only get a reading from the two cylinders that feed into the pipe with the O2 sensor installed.  In my opinion Muzzy is wrong and two are not necessary as a single O2 sensor monitors the combined exhaust from two cylinders and provided the engine is in good shape all of the cylinders will require the same fuel air mixture.  This is what is happening when the bike is stock or when it is modified with the Power Commander V, they all get the same mixture regardless of any differences between cylinders.  The Autotune is designed to use one O2 sensor and does not provide a means of utilizing two of them.  So one it will have to be.  I suggest hanging the Muzzy headers on the bike to enable finding the most convenient and "out of harm's way" place to weld the O2 sensor bung.  Don't overlook the route the wiring must follow.  Drill the appropriate size hole, weld the bung in place and install the whole exhaust system and you're good to go.

Jay, you are correct in stating that the PCV allows switching maps on the fly.  However, you can only carry two maps onboard.  Granted, the PCV can accommodate as many maps as your computer can hold but only two can be used when the bike is not attached to your computer.  You and I have the same bike with different exhausts.  Yours is the Muzzy dual system and mine uses the stock headers and a single Two Brothers canister.  I estimate that both systems will operate just about the same until very high rpm's are reached and the throttle bodies are almost fully opened.  Then yours will most likely flow more freely.  We both have a PCV installed but mine is also equipped with Autotune.  I have a toggle switch that allows me to choose between any map I wish to have loaded in the PCV and the "on the fly" map adjustments the Autotune provides.  The advantage of the Autotune is that it allows one to modify the fuel air requirements for any engine speed and/or throttle opening.  When the bike is running the Autotune will modify the mixture according to the reading from the O2 sensor and give you the fuel/air mixture dictated by the bike's needs at that moment.  It's purely a matter of personal choice but I prefer to have a fuel/air mixture the engine requires at any given time to having it set to solely follow one of the two maps installed in the PCV.

Thanks Bud for your explanation.

I asked Muzzy how I would wire up two O2 sensors to one Autotune and they said a y adapter from the O2 sensors to the Autotune...  Seems like more money and trouble for really no gain.  One other question does Autotune include O2 sensor or is this a separate part that needs purchased?


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Re: Muzzy/Autotune install question
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2012, 09:44:28 PM »
The sensor is included.  I'll simplify the why, consistency of performance.  I'm hoping that one day they will have a program I can run off my Droid phone.

Offline BudCallaghan

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Re: Muzzy/Autotune install question
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2012, 12:34:47 AM »
Thanks Bud for your explanation.

I asked Muzzy how I would wire up two O2 sensors to one Autotune and they said a y adapter from the O2 sensors to the Autotune...  Seems like more money and trouble for really no gain.  One other question does Autotune include O2 sensor or is this a separate part that needs purchased?

It appears to me that the folks at Muzzy's are quite adept at manufacturing exhaust systems but don't know squat about EFI systems.  Let me use my own pickup truck as an example.  I have a late 80's Chevy S10 that came from the factory powered (actually under powered) by a small 2.8 litre (171 CID) V6 engine.  Where I live in Oregon there are no smog laws to contend with so one can swap an engine without constraint.  I built a late model, high performance 5.7 litre (350 CID) engine and installed it.  I replaced the carburetor with an Edelbrock EFI system.  Rather than install an O2 sensor for each bank of cylinders I opted for a single O2 sensor in the left collector as there was really no place to put one in the right collector due to everything being such a tight fit.  The only place to put it on the right side was at the bottom of the collector where it was exposed and highly vulnerable as I frequently drive it where the roads are dirt and often rutted.  I reasoned that this is a very carefully constructed engine with one bank of cylinders being identical to the other so why wouldn't their fuel/air mixture requirements also be identical.  One O2 sensor in either side of the exhaust should give readings that would simply be duplicated by a sensor on the other side.  This was done more than a decade ago and the pickup has served me well.  It's also nearly as fast as the C14.  Plug readings from both sides of the engine are perfect and indicate that on an engine that performs well there is no need for multiple O2 sensors.  The same holds true for the inline four in the C14.  Even if you sample the exhaust gases from each of the two pipe conjunctions using two O2 sensors you will still get readings that are produced by a pair of cylinders, not individual readings from each cylinder.  As in the example of my pickup, there really isn't any need to use two O2 sensors as both pairs of cylinders will be fed the same formula and therefore their exhaust gases are just about the same.  This will not hold true if the engine has reached the worn out stage.  One can do a leak down test to determine the equivalency of the various cylinder's performance to verify the efficiency of the individual cylinders.  The engine used in the C14 is so strong compared to the load it's carrying that it is never stressed and it is so well made, using high quality components, and very exacting tolerances that it is likely to run a very long time without complaint.  An example of this is the Yamaha 1100 that I purchased new in 1979.  I put 225,000 miles on it and the heads were never removed.  At that mileage I did a leak down test and all four cylinders were still above 95%.  That's equivalent to practically no wear in all that time and distance.  My PCV with Autotune sure as hell doesn't need two O2 sensors and neither does yours.  If you want advice in this matter I suggest you give up calling Muzzy for answers as they don't know what they're talking about and instead call the people who manufacture the Autotune for the information you seek.  Finally, the Autotune does come with one O2 sensor and one bung.     
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Offline gPink

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Re: Muzzy/Autotune install question
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2012, 03:51:47 AM »
The autotune does not change the EFI to a closed loop system. After a ride you have to plug into the software and accept the trims generated by the autotune in order to change the working map in the PCV.

Offline Jeremy Mitchell

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Re: Muzzy/Autotune install question
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2012, 06:35:08 AM »
If you would like to save some cash you can get the ZX-14 Muzzy's full exhaust.  That is what I did and I paid $150 for the AutoTune and $800 for the exhaust (after a little haggling with the retailer).  The exhaust even had a stainless bung welded in the proper spot for the O2 sensor.  Sounds great and performs even better.

Very easy to make the ZX-14 exhaust fit the C14 (see reply #57)
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=5090.45
Keeping the economy going, one tank of fuel and two tires at a time.

Offline wildnphx

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Re: Muzzy/Autotune install question
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2012, 11:04:26 PM »
If you would like to save some cash you can get the ZX-14 Muzzy's full exhaust.  That is what I did and I paid $150 for the AutoTune and $800 for the exhaust (after a little haggling with the retailer).  The exhaust even had a stainless bung welded in the proper spot for the O2 sensor.  Sounds great and performs even better.

Very easy to make the ZX-14 exhaust fit the C14 (see reply #57)
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=5090.45

Great prices... I already placed the ordered for Exhaust and it was about$1121 or so for the Concours Carbon...  Where did you purchase the Autotune?  lowest price I found this far is $199.

Thanks,

Kirk

Offline Jeremy Mitchell

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Re: Muzzy/Autotune install question
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2012, 07:42:42 AM »
Great prices... I already placed the ordered for Exhaust and it was about$1121 or so for the Concours Carbon...  Where did you purchase the Autotune?  lowest price I found this far is $199.

Thanks,

Kirk

I bought it off ebay.  I lucked out and found one that was brand new but was the last one in stock at a shop that was closing.
Keeping the economy going, one tank of fuel and two tires at a time.

Offline gPink

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Re: Muzzy/Autotune install question
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2012, 08:35:13 AM »
Great prices... I already placed the ordered for Exhaust and it was about$1121 or so for the Concours Carbon...  Where did you purchase the Autotune?  lowest price I found this far is $199.

Thanks,

Kirk
Decent prices and great service at FuelMoto.
http://www.fuelmotousa.com/

Offline wildnphx

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Re: Muzzy/Autotune install question
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2012, 07:07:09 PM »
Decent prices and great service at FuelMoto.
http://www.fuelmotousa.com/


That is where I found the $199 price for the autotune however the Exhaust price was to high at fuelmoto for me they could not come even come close to the price I got it for at starcycle.  Still waiting to find the Autotune for $150 that is an awesome price!!!


Offline Jeremy Mitchell

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Re: Muzzy/Autotune install question
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2012, 07:26:53 AM »

That is where I found the $199 price for the autotune however the Exhaust price was to high at fuelmoto for me they could not come even come close to the price I got it for at starcycle.  Still waiting to find the Autotune for $150 that is an awesome price!!!

Right place, right time.  I got lucky.
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Offline Wanderlust

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Re: Muzzy/Autotune install question
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2012, 11:21:36 PM »
It appears to me that the folks at Muzzy's are quite adept at manufacturing exhaust systems but don't know squat about EFI systems.  Let me use my own pickup truck as an example.  I have a late 80's Chevy S10 that came from the factory powered (actually under powered) by a small 2.8 litre (171 CID) V6 engine.  Where I live in Oregon there are no smog laws to contend with so one can swap an engine without constraint.  I built a late model, high performance 5.7 litre (350 CID) engine and installed it.  I replaced the carburetor with an Edelbrock EFI system.  Rather than install an O2 sensor for each bank of cylinders I opted for a single O2 sensor in the left collector as there was really no place to put one in the right collector due to everything being such a tight fit.  The only place to put it on the right side was at the bottom of the collector where it was exposed and highly vulnerable as I frequently drive it where the roads are dirt and often rutted.  I reasoned that this is a very carefully constructed engine with one bank of cylinders being identical to the other so why wouldn't their fuel/air mixture requirements also be identical.  One O2 sensor in either side of the exhaust should give readings that would simply be duplicated by a sensor on the other side.  This was done more than a decade ago and the pickup has served me well.  It's also nearly as fast as the C14.  Plug readings from both sides of the engine are perfect and indicate that on an engine that performs well there is no need for multiple O2 sensors.  The same holds true for the inline four in the C14.  Even if you sample the exhaust gases from each of the two pipe conjunctions using two O2 sensors you will still get readings that are produced by a pair of cylinders, not individual readings from each cylinder.  As in the example of my pickup, there really isn't any need to use two O2 sensors as both pairs of cylinders will be fed the same formula and therefore their exhaust gases are just about the same.  This will not hold true if the engine has reached the worn out stage.  One can do a leak down test to determine the equivalency of the various cylinder's performance to verify the efficiency of the individual cylinders.  The engine used in the C14 is so strong compared to the load it's carrying that it is never stressed and it is so well made, using high quality components, and very exacting tolerances that it is likely to run a very long time without complaint.  An example of this is the Yamaha 1100 that I purchased new in 1979.  I put 225,000 miles on it and the heads were never removed.  At that mileage I did a leak down test and all four cylinders were still above 95%.  That's equivalent to practically no wear in all that time and distance.  My PCV with Autotune sure as hell doesn't need two O2 sensors and neither does yours.  If you want advice in this matter I suggest you give up calling Muzzy for answers as they don't know what they're talking about and instead call the people who manufacture the Autotune for the information you seek.  Finally, the Autotune does come with one O2 sensor and one bung.     

Completely agree with this view. Also on a more practical level, even if you wanted to put two O2 sensors on the Muzzys dual exhaust header, there is only one place to put one - that is, if you follow the Autotune instructions and mount it at least 10 degrees below horizontal.
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Offline Wanderlust

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Re: Muzzy/Autotune install question
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2012, 11:27:48 PM »
The autotune does not change the EFI to a closed loop system. After a ride you have to plug into the software and accept the trims generated by the autotune in order to change the working map in the PCV.

Actually the Autotune does in fact change the fuel map based on instant variations in AFR. You can set the percentage of variation from map values that Autotune is allowed to change; anything above this will get stored until you accept the "trims".

By memory, default value is >20% variation from map value.

Also, accepting trims will guarantee that, over time, Autotune will starve your engine for fuel by continually reducing map values for a given RPM. I found this out some months ago so I decided to go back to the basics by using the original map from the dyno tuning session when I had the PCV/Autotune first installed. AFR was set at 13.2. I have never accepted trims since, and yet my fuel mileage is as best as it's ever been. Riding two up, I can routinely get over 205 miles on a tank before hitting reserve, sometimes farther.
Madness does not always howl. Sometimes, it is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, Hey, is there room in your head for one more?

Offline BudCallaghan

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Re: Muzzy/Autotune install question
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2012, 03:00:05 AM »
Actually the Autotune does in fact change the fuel map based on instant variations in AFR. You can set the percentage of variation from map values that Autotune is allowed to change; anything above this will get stored until you accept the "trims".

By memory, default value is >20% variation from map value.

Also, accepting trims will guarantee that, over time, Autotune will starve your engine for fuel by continually reducing map values for a given RPM. I found this out some months ago so I decided to go back to the basics by using the original map from the dyno tuning session when I had the PCV/Autotune first installed. AFR was set at 13.2. I have never accepted trims since, and yet my fuel mileage is as best as it's ever been. Riding two up, I can routinely get over 205 miles on a tank before hitting reserve, sometimes farther.

Wanderlust, I agree with all you say.  Your experience with Autotune and the solution you found for getting it set up to your satisfaction just about duplicates my own journey through that somewhat murky quagmire.  I received two dyno generated maps taken from a C14 with the same setup as mine from Keith at FuelMoto.  One for most power and the other a bit leaner for best fuel economy.  When the Autotune is installed you're then limited to having but one static map stored in the PCV and can then either use that map or switch to the autotune that will adjust another map on the fly according to instructions from the O2 sensor.  It took awhile for me to eventually determine that the acceptance of trims will indeed lead to an engine running too lean.  Using the economy map with the Autotune and fiddling with the AFR values for various settings eventually led to an engine that was a bit less thirsty while still being able to perform quite nicely.  On those occasions when I'm in the middle of nowhere and the enforcers of the law are spread thin, I will switch from the Autotune to the stored power map to give the bike a richer mixture for the high speeds encountered, usually 110 to 140+ on the longer straights.  Some of which are many miles in length.  The acceptance of trims I learned, as did you, leads to a map that becomes detrimental to the outcome being pursued.  Learning what AFR values to employ, the use of a stable map, and letting the Autotune make necessary adjustments on the fly is the way to go.  Not accepting trims is the key.  Sad to say, the folks at Dynojet do a great service to us all by providing a great product but fall a bit from grace by failing to provide more than the most basic of instructions for getting the system dialed in.   
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Offline gPink

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Re: Muzzy/Autotune install question
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2012, 04:04:10 AM »
Wanderlust (Also, accepting trims will guarantee that, over time, Autotune will starve your engine for fuel by continually reducing map values for a given RPM.)

Bud (It took awhile for me to eventually determine that the acceptance of trims will indeed lead to an engine running too lean.)

Not arguing,just trying to learn. By what experience or process did you each come to this conclusion? Thanks for the help.

Offline BudCallaghan

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Re: Muzzy/Autotune install question
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2012, 05:10:39 AM »
Wanderlust (Also, accepting trims will guarantee that, over time, Autotune will starve your engine for fuel by continually reducing map values for a given RPM.)

Bud (It took awhile for me to eventually determine that the acceptance of trims will indeed lead to an engine running too lean.)

Not arguing,just trying to learn. By what experience or process did you each come to this conclusion? Thanks for the help.

gPink,

I can't be certain but I assume that Wanderlust and I both arrived at our mutual opinions by traveling very similar routes.  Because of the lack of guidance provided by the instructions I began with very little idea of what I was doing.  Here's a compressed summation of my education provided by being both the student and teacher.  Truly a case of the blind leading the blind.  I used the supplied AFM tables and after running the bike around and about for a day or two I accepted the trim and this permanently altered the map I was using.  Then after riding the bike for a similar length of time and distance I again accepted the trims, thus further altering the map, for the most part at the lower end of the rpm scale.  As I did this, the operation of the bike became worse.  I would return to the unaltered map and begin again with altered AFM tables.  This scenario was repeated a number of times over the course of many months due to the intrusion of throat cancer and the absolutely draconian methods of treatment that really knocks one on his ass.  Furthermore, when You don't know if you're going to live through it or not it is difficult to give a damn whether your bike's getting its proper dose of fuel.  Once the treatment ceases and strength, clarity of thought and realization of knowing that you actually have a future, the process of fiddling with the C14's fuel/air mixture can resume.  Keeping a record of what had been done was helpful in analyzing just what had occurred and how to proceed in a direction that just might lead to the destination desired.  Eventually this empirical knowledge led to the conclusion that the use of a properly set up map (the one provided by FuelMoto) was close to what was desired so it was used without alteration and then by letting the Autotune make its adjustments to the mixture as the bike was ridden provided an acceptable conclusion.  Then you can alter the AFM table a bit here and there to see if the subtle changes to it correspond to your desire, in my case I wanted better fuel economy as I had a toggle switch to resort to the power map when I wanted to go like a bat out of hell.  Empirically, I thus learned how to get the PCV and Autotune dialed in to suit my taste.  For those of you who have not read my previous posts, my bike is of '09 vintage,  the secondary butterflies have been removed, I use a K&N air filter, a Two Brothers exhaust and stock headers with catalysts and use Amsoil.  As we all know, the C14 is as docile as a kitten when putting around town or wickedly fast where it can be given free reign and somehow it handles extremely well in spite of its size and weight.  In lieu of its shortcomings, the finished product is exemplary and I commend the people at Kawasaki for designing and producing one hell of a motorcycle for us to use as is or to modify according to our individual tastes and desires until we have a truly finished product that fulfills our individual yearnings.   

gPink,

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Where are we going and why am I in this basket?"

Could this possibly be an experience similar to the one you may have had that led to your question?
Never let schooling interfere with your education or your ambition.