Author Topic: 16k+ Miles and Transmission Damage?!  (Read 22135 times)

Offline mcclaskeyj

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
  • Country: us
  • Adventure...redefined
Re: 16k+ Miles and Transmission Damage?!
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2011, 06:28:19 AM »
Lots of good info here folks thanks! I haven't driven this machine hard at all. I only have the occaisional quick takeoff on the interstate on-ramp.  ;D

I ALWAYS use the clutch when shifting and also chop the throttle each time I pull the clutch lever in then gradually let it out and apply throttle. I've babied this thing practically!  ::)

I'll be calling the dealer today to see if they can pick it up or if they think it would be fine to drive there.

I have the vehicle "roadside assistance" and even rental vehicle coverage in the insurance but don't think it would apply here. I have a couple other bikes that I commute on, so this thing isn't on the road as much as one would think, just when I've got a need for the storage and comfort on the super slab.  8)

Oh, and winters here can be just as good as spring in some places. GREAT riding season right now.  ;)
'83 C70 Honda Passport   '06 Honda Rebel 250
'76 Kawasaki KZ400          '79 Suzuki GS1000L
'04 Kawasaki Ninja 250     '07 C14 ABS  '09 C14 Red                            '08 CRF230L
http://www.bikepics.com/members/mcclaskeyj/

Offline Y0ssarian

  • Arena
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 83
  • Country: us
  • 97% chance of being hit by a piano
Re: 16k+ Miles and Transmission Damage?!
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2011, 10:00:02 AM »
Brian, et al... maybe a noob questions... I read this somewhere before but never found the answer.  How is this possible?  And why would one shift without disengaging the clutch?

   All the clutch does when shifting between gears is "unload" the transmission, which is a fancy way of saying the gears aren't mashed together by engine power. You can do the same thing with the throttle; blip the throttle "off" for a moment and it will unload the trans. Usually the rider "preloads" the shifter by putting about half-normal upwards pressure on it, and the blip of the throttle makes the shift. It's not really bad for the trans; there are riders who do it pretty much every shift, and their transmissions don't seem to break any more often. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a racer that uses the clutch for upshifts. You can do a similar thing for downshifts, but it's not the same...downshifting without the clutch can cause problems. There are racers who do that as well, but their transmissions have to be rebuilt between races.
   As to why...faster shifts and laziness.
The words of the prophets are written on the cylinder walls.

Offline rtarp1

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 188
Re: 16k+ Miles and Transmission Damage?!
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2011, 10:12:18 AM »
just ride it until the tranny explodes .  Dont give them any info they dont need , you just tell them it blew up.
  then you get a complete tranny rebuild not just a stopgap fix.

bob

Offline sherob

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 645
  • Country: us
Re: 16k+ Miles and Transmission Damage?!
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2011, 10:46:23 AM »
If you have the Kawa Roadside Assistance, you can have them take it to the dealer of choice... I have had mine towed to my dealer in Loveland which is not the closest by any means (75 miles from my house), and it never exceeded my $250 allowance per incident.
Rob
Brighton, CO... missing Texas!

Offline mcclaskeyj

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
  • Country: us
  • Adventure...redefined
Re: 16k+ Miles and Transmission Damage?!
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2011, 10:52:15 AM »
just ride it until the tranny explodes .  Dont give them any info they dont need , you just tell them it blew up.
  then you get a complete tranny rebuild not just a stopgap fix.

bob
It would seem that it's likely gonna be a rebuild anyway...at least the #4 gear. Don't warranty claims normally replace the parts that are defective? They shouldn't be able to cut corners on the gear teeth.
'83 C70 Honda Passport   '06 Honda Rebel 250
'76 Kawasaki KZ400          '79 Suzuki GS1000L
'04 Kawasaki Ninja 250     '07 C14 ABS  '09 C14 Red                            '08 CRF230L
http://www.bikepics.com/members/mcclaskeyj/

Offline rtarp1

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 188
Re: 16k+ Miles and Transmission Damage?!
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2011, 10:54:32 AM »
Who knows,  i would just ride it while i have the weather and bring it in during winter down time, its covered either way.

Offline B.D.F.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4955
  • Country: 00
  • It's only really cold if you fall down in it.
    • C-14 farkles you almost cannot ride without.
Re: 16k+ Miles and Transmission Damage?!
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2011, 07:30:33 PM »
Good post.

Just to expand on it a little bit, if the throttle is adjusted so that the engine is neither pushing the bike nor is it braking the bike, the transmission will slip out of any gear effortlessly. Going into the next gear (on an up shift) will be almost as effortless because only the engine, not the entire bike, has to accelerate slightly to match the chassis speed.

Think of it as trying to stick a stick into a picket fence while traveling next to that fence in a car, and assuming the fence is moving but at a different speed than the vehicle: a clutch uncouples the fence so that it is far easier to bring the fence up to or down to the vehicle's speed as the stick goes in. Backing off the throttle allows the vehicle to sort of 'float' next to the moving fence and approximate the fence's speed.

It is easy to try- when moving along at a steady speed, load the shifter as if you were shifting normally with the clutch. Because the gears are loaded by the power going from the engine to the bike's driveshaft, the shifter lever won't move. Gently back off the throttle and when the engine's deceleration matches the bike's deceleration, the lever will suddenly become free and slide out of the current gear- and move into the next (upper) gear pretty smoothly. If done right, a passenger cannot even tell if you are using the clutch or not. As already mentioned, it does not work nearly as well when downshifting because the engine must be accelerated to match the speed of the vehicle while going into the next gear (lower gear).

Someone recently posted on the other forum about having ridden motorcycles for many years and never having used the clutch when up shifting. He was properly chastised of course and may have learned his lesson (that posting such things will get you slapped on the Internet) but of course he was exactly correct too- up shifting without the clutch is harmless provided it is done correctly and gently. A clutch goes a long way to making sloppy or careless shifting go smoothly; it can never hurt to use a clutch but it does take some care and finesse to up shift without it. I just do not recommend down shifting without the clutch as there is no way to make that really graceful from the transmission’s point of view.

Brian

Brian, et al... maybe a noob questions... I read this somewhere before but never found the answer.  How is this possible?  And why would one shift without disengaging the clutch?

   All the clutch does when shifting between gears is "unload" the transmission, which is a fancy way of saying the gears aren't mashed together by engine power. You can do the same thing with the throttle; blip the throttle "off" for a moment and it will unload the trans. Usually the rider "preloads" the shifter by putting about half-normal upwards pressure on it, and the blip of the throttle makes the shift. It's not really bad for the trans; there are riders who do it pretty much every shift, and their transmissions don't seem to break any more often. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a racer that uses the clutch for upshifts. You can do a similar thing for downshifts, but it's not the same...downshifting without the clutch can cause problems. There are racers who do that as well, but their transmissions have to be rebuilt between races.
   As to why...faster shifts and laziness.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline roadie

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 460
  • Country: us
  • RIP:2009 ABS....Welcome 2015 Black
Re: 16k+ Miles and Transmission Damage?!
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2011, 05:56:35 AM »
BDF, Y0sarrian...thx makes sense now.
Will

Offline maxtog

  • Elite Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8875
  • Country: us
  • 2011 Silver
Re: 16k+ Miles and Transmission Damage?!
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2011, 07:22:09 AM »
Brian, et al... maybe a noob questions... I read this somewhere before but never found the answer.  How is this possible?  And why would one shift without disengaging the clutch?

Oh my.  I only use the clutch about 60% of the time when shifting, and that is mostly when downshifting (clutchless downshifting is more difficult).  Matching and shifting without the clutch for upshifting is not that difficult.  Intuitively, I know when I won't be able to do it perfectly and just use the clutch.  When done properly (clutchless shifting), it  will be effortless and noiseless and it doesn't harm the transmission or clutch at all.   However, done IMPROPERLY, it can and will cause damage or accelerated wear.

Why do it?  Because it is much faster and easier...  And a little fun, too.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline TownsendsFJR1300

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 36
  • Country: us
  • Knowledge is Power!
Re: 16k+ Miles and Transmission Damage?!
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2011, 07:13:43 PM »
I personally would be making an appointment and getting it there on a trailer. 

There's most likely small metal bits floating about that I wouldn't want to cause any more damage. Should a small piece of broken steel get in an oil line and is missed by the mechainic doing the final fix, problems will occur later... 

Looking at the parts fisch, it appears 4th gear rides on a bushing.  It also appears the cases split horozontally and besides pulling the engine (and flipping it upside down), the transmission can be accessed without removing the top end but just the lower crankcase assembly.   

http://www.babbittsonline.com/kawasaki-motorcycle-parts#/Kawasaki/ZG1400B9F_Concours_14_(2009)/CRANKCASE/ZG1400B9F-2009/I14I1487E14111
2007 Yamaha FZ6, BD43 headlight mod, PIAA  bulbs, Stebal air horn, Scorpion SS pipes-(no DB killers), Speedohealer, HEL SS brake lines, Fenda Extenda, K&P SS re-usable oil filter, custom mounted BMW style electrical outlet(L.S.), Techmount GPS mount with handlebar bar risers/set backs, additional helmet lock, custom mod'ed seat(Spencers), Hyper light-rear running/brake light, Techspec tank pads

Offline stevewfl

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4268
  • Country: 00
Re: 16k+ Miles and Transmission Damage?!
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2011, 07:14:51 PM »
Incredibly interesting thread.  Warranty man will have your back if its a prob.
“The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.” St. Augustine

Offline Pokey

  • Arena
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2487
  • Country: us
  • WESTERVILLE OHIO 'Twit"
Re: 16k+ Miles and Transmission Damage?!
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2011, 08:00:02 PM »
Why I have 2 bikes.....just sayin. ;) Not running Scamsoil by chance are you?
2006 DL1000  2006 SV650
08 C14 "gone"

"All we have to do is decide what to do with the time given to us". Gandalf the Grey

Offline redbarber

  • Arena
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 129
  • Country: us
  • '09 ABS (wife on '08 Can-AM Spyder follows)
Re: 16k+ Miles and Transmission Damage?!
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2011, 08:45:41 PM »
Why I have 2 bikes.....just sayin. ;) Not running Scamsoil by chance are you?
What are you saying?  Something wrong with Scamsoil?  Say it ain't so.
If you take yourself too seriously, nobody else will.  Humor is all around you, make it your quest to find all of it!

Offline Conrad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5822
  • Country: us
Re: 16k+ Miles and Transmission Damage?!
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2011, 06:17:44 AM »
Here we go...

 :popcorn:
Northern Illinois   Silverdammit '08 C-14 ABS

"Don't bother me with facts, Son. I've already made up my mind." -Foghorn Leghorn

Offline mcclaskeyj

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
  • Country: us
  • Adventure...redefined
Re: 16k+ Miles and Transmission Damage?!
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2011, 08:36:21 AM »
I personally would be making an appointment and getting it there on a trailer. 

There's most likely small metal bits floating about that I wouldn't want to cause any more damage. Should a small piece of broken steel get in an oil line and is missed by the mechainic doing the final fix, problems will occur later... 

Looking at the parts fisch, it appears 4th gear rides on a bushing.  It also appears the cases split horozontally and besides pulling the engine (and flipping it upside down), the transmission can be accessed without removing the top end but just the lower crankcase assembly.   

http://www.babbittsonline.com/kawasaki-motorcycle-parts#/Kawasaki/ZG1400B9F_Concours_14_(2009)/CRANKCASE/ZG1400B9F-2009/I14I1487E14111
This tranny sure looks like a piece of work just to get to! I'd have nightmares trying to remove everything then the engine bolts, then getting the thing out of the frame!!  :yikes:

I'll hopefully be getting this thing to the dealer soon and then I'll have some more info once they get it stripped down and open. I'm waiting for my '76 KZ400 to get out of the tuning shop so I can use it "in place" of the Connie since it looks like it would be down for at least a few weeks.  :'(

I wasn't using Amsoil just in case you guys were looking to derail this into another oil thread.  ;D  :stirpot:
'83 C70 Honda Passport   '06 Honda Rebel 250
'76 Kawasaki KZ400          '79 Suzuki GS1000L
'04 Kawasaki Ninja 250     '07 C14 ABS  '09 C14 Red                            '08 CRF230L
http://www.bikepics.com/members/mcclaskeyj/

Offline Fretka

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 226
  • Country: us
Re: 16k+ Miles and Transmission Damage?!
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2011, 09:41:24 AM »
I'm beginning to wonder if there might be a lubrication issue having to do with the trannie on some bikes, my first gear is on it's way out as well.

Fretka
Wretched excess visited upon an innocent C-14

Offline gPink

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5686
  • Country: cn
  • MMVIII C XIV
Re: 16k+ Miles and Transmission Damage?!
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2011, 11:46:29 AM »
I'm beginning to wonder if there might be a lubrication issue having to do with the trannie on some bikes, my first gear is on it's way out as well.

Fretka
That wouldn't have anything to do with launch stress caused by the turbo would it? ;)

Offline TownsendsFJR1300

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 36
  • Country: us
  • Knowledge is Power!
Re: 16k+ Miles and Transmission Damage?!
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2011, 01:54:27 PM »
Out of curiosity, has your (the Op) oil level risen since the last oil change?

 I was just reading a thread on fuel getting into the oil, diluting it and definitly raising the level by 8 plus ounces or more (up to 20%). 

If so, the diluted oil could definitly contribute to some oiling/lubrication issues. 
2007 Yamaha FZ6, BD43 headlight mod, PIAA  bulbs, Stebal air horn, Scorpion SS pipes-(no DB killers), Speedohealer, HEL SS brake lines, Fenda Extenda, K&P SS re-usable oil filter, custom mounted BMW style electrical outlet(L.S.), Techmount GPS mount with handlebar bar risers/set backs, additional helmet lock, custom mod'ed seat(Spencers), Hyper light-rear running/brake light, Techspec tank pads

Offline mcclaskeyj

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
  • Country: us
  • Adventure...redefined
Re: 16k+ Miles and Transmission Damage?!
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2011, 07:25:50 AM »
Out of curiosity, has your (the Op) oil level risen since the last oil change?

 I was just reading a thread on fuel getting into the oil, diluting it and definitly raising the level by 8 plus ounces or more (up to 20%). 

If so, the diluted oil could definitly contribute to some oiling/lubrication issues.
If anything I'd think I'd be losing oil gradually due to the weeping seal on the engine which I can smell and get a very slight puff of smoke every now and then on startup. I'll check the oil level later today, but I've never had that problem before with either of my C14s.
'83 C70 Honda Passport   '06 Honda Rebel 250
'76 Kawasaki KZ400          '79 Suzuki GS1000L
'04 Kawasaki Ninja 250     '07 C14 ABS  '09 C14 Red                            '08 CRF230L
http://www.bikepics.com/members/mcclaskeyj/

Offline TownsendsFJR1300

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 36
  • Country: us
  • Knowledge is Power!
Re: 16k+ Miles and Transmission Damage?!
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2011, 07:10:07 PM »
Read post 15, he lost 4th gear on his 2008....... Kawasaki did repair it...

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=4310.15
2007 Yamaha FZ6, BD43 headlight mod, PIAA  bulbs, Stebal air horn, Scorpion SS pipes-(no DB killers), Speedohealer, HEL SS brake lines, Fenda Extenda, K&P SS re-usable oil filter, custom mounted BMW style electrical outlet(L.S.), Techmount GPS mount with handlebar bar risers/set backs, additional helmet lock, custom mod'ed seat(Spencers), Hyper light-rear running/brake light, Techspec tank pads