Author Topic: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)  (Read 23084 times)

Offline Caffeinated

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Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2011, 05:44:03 AM »
I'll have to look into the Motoport stuff when I get some $.  I resorted to the Nelson-Rigg rain suit over my waterproofresistant TourMaster jacket and Joe Rocket pants, just to make sure I was dry.  The rockets are usually fine for short rain bursts while moving, but the crotch leaks in the pouring rain while sitting in traffic.

Took me a good 10 min to get on to 66 from the Balls Ford/234 light (1/2 mile)...all the morons were running into each other this morning!
Chris (COG# 8538), Bristow, Va
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Offline roadie

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Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2011, 08:14:45 AM »
I'll have to look into the Motoport stuff when I get some $.  I resorted to the Nelson-Rigg rain suit over my waterproofresistant TourMaster jacket and Joe Rocket pants, just to make sure I was dry.  The rockets are usually fine for short rain bursts while moving, but the crotch leaks in the pouring rain while sitting in traffic.

Took me a good 10 min to get on to 66 from the Balls Ford/234 light (1/2 mile)...all the morons were running into each other this morning!

yeah was freakin' crazy...I think I counted two accidents.  Glad you stopped by last night, was fun showing someone a ripped open bike that cared.  I just get blank stares at home :-D
Will

Offline MrFurious

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Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2011, 08:50:22 AM »
Chiming in here a little late, but saw this a few weeks ago and it really shined a light on the protective qualities (or lack thereof) of Cordura.  This video starts out talking about a new jacket, but then goes to show how products are tested to earn an EN Level 2 rating for abrasion resistance.

Clover Tekno Jacket

500D Cordura didn't even last 1 second, so I doubt 1,000D would last more than 3.  I haven't seen any reports on how Kevlar or any other "super" fabrics stand up to this same test (it's elective for manufacturers and costs them money) so I can't comment on that. 

The sad thing is that probably 90% of the textile motorcycle gear on the market is made of 600D or lighter Cordura and in the grand scheme of things really doesn't offer the wearer much protection.  For example, most of the FirstGear products use 400D Cordura (the TPG line being the exception which uses 600D with 1,000D reinforcements) and the video above shows it's not even going to hold up for a full second in a slide. 

This is one of the main reasons the European Union came up with their new system of standards for protective gear sold in that region in the late 1990's, but unfortunately they really don't enforce it and there's very little incentive for the manufacturers to have their gear certified.  "Supposedly" under E.U. law manufacturers aren't allowed to market non-certified gear as having "protective" attributes, but we all know that's not the case.  More details on the EN standards can be found at the following link if you're interested.

http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-clothing/motorcycle-clothing-safety-standards.htm

The Clover jacket shown in the above video is the first textile jacket to ever receive top EN certification in all areas (abrasion, mechanical impact, sheer strength, etc.) even though these standards have been in place for a decade.


Jim B.
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Offline Bagger

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Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2011, 11:00:22 AM »
What MrF posted was interesting.  And, after thinking about it for a bit, I suspect that Cordura is not all that 'protective'.

I have a full set of Aerostitch Road Crafter gear.  There are ballistic areas on points that would contact the road surface.  Elbows, knees, shoulders where there are placed armored bits that are covered by perhaps more protective material.  I guess this is where the most contact comes ... the points of contact.  And, that the armor is what is really doing the job of protection, not the Cordura.

Also, and I'm just doing this from memory ... which become dim as time expands ... but, I seem to remember several testimonials where riders went down with Aerostitch gear and came out unscathed.  Even the suit was 'repairable'.  Maybe others know about these testimonials ??
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Offline MrFurious

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Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2011, 11:51:14 AM »
Everything I've heard about Aerostitch has been good other than the damp crotch issues. 

I've been trying to decide on some new gear for a couple months now, but as usual I can't find exactly what I want.  I do a lot of dual-sport riding as well, so getting something that I can wear on both bikes without looking like a tool is a must - meaning it's going to be textile.  I want something that's primarily three season (fall, winter, spring) with a waterproof outer shell but still has plenty of venting to allow for fairly comfortable summer use on all but the hottest days.  I have a Rev`it mesh jacket/pant set for fair summer weather but it doesn't have a thermal or waterproof liner and I really don't want to have to pack two sets of gear on a summer trip to cover my bases.

Been looking at the Rukka Armas and the Rev`it Everest GTX, but both have flaws to them IMO.  On the Rukka I don't like the Gore Lock-Out main zipper on the jacket or the crazy $3000 price tag for the jacket/pant combo, and I'm not sure it would vent well enough for me.  On the Everest I know the venting isn't up to snuff and there's no SuperFabric in the impact areas.  The Rev`it Defender would be perfect if it had the waterproof outer shell like the Everest, but that's not the case.
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Offline roadie

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Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2011, 12:09:41 PM »
Chiming in here a little late, but saw this a few weeks ago and it really shined a light on the protective qualities (or lack thereof) of Cordura.  This video starts out talking about a new jacket, but then goes to show how products are tested to earn an EN Level 2 rating for abrasion resistance.

Clover Tekno Jacket

500D Cordura didn't even last 1 second, so I doubt 1,000D would last more than 3.  I haven't seen any reports on how Kevlar or any other "super" fabrics stand up to this same test (it's elective for manufacturers and costs them money) so I can't comment on that. 

The sad thing is that probably 90% of the textile motorcycle gear on the market is made of 600D or lighter Cordura and in the grand scheme of things really doesn't offer the wearer much protection.  For example, most of the FirstGear products use 400D Cordura (the TPG line being the exception which uses 600D with 1,000D reinforcements) and the video above shows it's not even going to hold up for a full second in a slide. 

This is one of the main reasons the European Union came up with their new system of standards for protective gear sold in that region in the late 1990's, but unfortunately they really don't enforce it and there's very little incentive for the manufacturers to have their gear certified.  "Supposedly" under E.U. law manufacturers aren't allowed to market non-certified gear as having "protective" attributes, but we all know that's not the case.  More details on the EN standards can be found at the following link if you're interested.

http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-clothing/motorcycle-clothing-safety-standards.htm

The Clover jacket shown in the above video is the first textile jacket to ever receive top EN certification in all areas (abrasion, mechanical impact, sheer strength, etc.) even though these standards have been in place for a decade.


I have yet to find one independent abrasion and tear strength comparison and a source from where the numbers come from.  I;I'm Sure they exist, but have not found them.  For instance, even on MotoPort's homepage they have stats, but no source.  I think it would go a long way to dispell/validate/or open some eyes on the durability of cordura.  I agree, 500 denier ain't goin on my ass...I love my leather, but damn I love that 1000 denier stuff too.

Hey Bagger, yeah i read the testimonials also...I'm hopin' never to have to post one.  Be interesting to start a thread on how gear held up from forum members.  I know every accident will be different and too have too many variables to make it a one-size-fits-all judgement, but would be interesting to read.  "How'd it hold up when you went down?"
Will

Offline Bagger

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Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2011, 12:37:36 PM »

Hey, Will ... a quick search found this on another motorcyel forum thread.  It may not be exactly what you are looking for, but found it interesting.

Abrasion Comparisons:

Been some questions about what kind of gear to buy. Found this awhile back and thought might be good to post up again.


Tear and Abrasion Strength by the numbers
Pounds of force until fabric tears Abrasion cycles on pavement until fabric fails
CottonJeans 4.5 pounds to tear 50 cycles to failure
70 Denier Standard Nylon 4.5 pounds to tear 165 cycles to failure
500 Denier Polyester 8 pounds to tear 180 cycles to failure
200 Denier Standard Nylon 7.5 pounds to tear 275 cycles to failure
500 Denier Cordura 22 pounds to tear 710 cycles to failure
620 Denier Cordura 35 pounds to tear 1200 cycles to failure
NEW Competition Grade Leather 80-110 pounds to tear 1200-1700 cycles to failure
1000 Denier Cordura 110 pounds to tear 1780 cycles to failure
Air Mesh Kevlar 1260 pounds to tear 970 cycles to failure Stretch Kevlar Blend 420lbs pounds to tear 1800 cycles to failure

This is how quickly some materials take to hole:
Material Seconds
Denim 0.2 to 0.5
Some race gloves 0.6
Most leather gloves 1.0 to 1.8
Keprotec stretch material 0.9
Poor Kevlar 1.0
Two layers of waxed cotton 1.3
1.3mm thick cow hide 3.8
Two layers of 1.3mm thick cowhide 18
Three layers of 1.3mm thick cowhide 55
Two layers of Kevlar plain weave 5.6
Suede 18
Boot leather (generally 2.2mm thick) 20
Leather stretch panels 20.4


There is also this test from a while back:

Drag Test

"For the Drag Test, samples were stitched to a bag that held a 75-pound
sandbag inside a milk crate, then dragged behind a pickup truck..."

New, 100% Cotton Denim Jeans ----------------------- 3' 10"
Senior Balistic Nylon ----------------------------------- 3' 10"
Leather, Lightweight, Nude Finish, 2.25 oz/sq. ft. --- 4' 3"
Leather, Fashion Weight, 1.75 oz/sq ft. ------------- 4' 4"
Two-year-old 100% Cotton Denim Jeans ------------ 4' 5"
Cordura Nylon Type 440 ----------------------------- 18' 3"
Kevlar 29 Aramid Fiber, Style 713 ------------------ 22' 1"
Leather, Competition Weight, 3 oz/sq. ft. -------- 86' 0"


Taber Test

"For the Taber Test, the specimen was mounted on a rotating platform and
scuffed by two rubber-emery grinding wheels." The numbers represent the
number of revolutions until the fabric totally fails. A vacuum clears
debris.

Two-year-old 100% Cotton Denim Jeans 168
New 100% Cotton Denim Jeans 225
Kevlar 29 Aramid Fiber, Style 713 506
Cordura Nylon, Type 440 559
Leather, Lightweight, Nude Finish, 2.25 oz./sq. ft. 564
Leather, Fashion Weight, 1.75 oz./sq. ft. 750
Senior Ballistic Nylon 817
Leather, Competition Weight, 3 oz./sq. ft. 2600

More to consider...

"Finally, protection from road abrasion cannot be guaranteed by a
materials abrasion resistance alone. A jacket may have panels of
highly abrasion-resistant materials, yet if low-quality stitching joins
those panels and the seams come apart upon impact or during a slide, then
the abrasion resistance of the panels could count for nothing.
Furthermore, an ill-fitting garment may ride up in a slide, contorting
the body and exposing the skin. And the best jacket in the world, left
unzipped and/or unsnapped, won't give riders the protection they pay
for. When it comes to safety, the issues are more complex than just the
abrasion resistance of materials." __________________

From another site:

The textiles vs leathers debate is all about tradeoffs. Choosing which material to use to cover your hide with and spend your pennies on depends on how much you value individual tradeoffs and ultimately, your intended use and riding conditions. Sounds easy enough, but deciding between textiles vs leathers has had great rider minds in a muddle and increasingly so over the last couple of years as the quality and versatility of both materials has improved so much! Just type in “textiles vs leathers ” into google and you will find that 90% of the results are from forums with the answer ultimately resulting in the fact that it depends on your personal preferences. The problem is that this does not help those new to the biking world who have not had the time or experience to develop their own, well-guided preferences… and so the argument goes on.
But, it’s really quite simple if you use the BMI (Best Motorcycle Information) textiles vs leathers test. This test takes the four most differentiating attributes of the two materials into consideration – price, maintenance, comfort and protection. Each attribute is also assigned to either leathers or textiles, depending on which material has the greater advantage in terms of the attribute. After reading the brief summary on each, assign a score out of a hundred to each attribute, giving those attributes that are most important to you higher scores, so that in the end the total score of your four attributes adds to 100. Then add up the score that you gave to the leather attributes and textile attributes, and the material with the highest score is your answer – and best of all it will be unique to your personal preferences.
Price - Textiles
Motorcycle textiles are cheaper to buy than leathers. It is also much harder to judge the quality of leathers and so you take the risk of paying a lot of money for a suit that does not have quality stitching and construction. (Just beware however that it is widely accepted that your textile suit will probably only survive one crash before you have to fork out for a new pair.)
Maintenance - Textiles
This one is simple – motorcycle textiles can be thrown in a commercial washer, while leathers will need to be sent to the cleaners.
Comfort - Textiles
Motorcycle textiles have an all weather capability: vents for when it is warm, liners for when it is cold and water resistance for rain. It breathes more easily than leather, and water slides off it like a ducks back.
Leather is also much heavier than textile.
Protection - Leather
Tests are conducted all the time to compare the abrasion resistance of motorcycle riding gear materials and leather always comes out on top as the most durable material. Furthermore, leather does not melt from friction, it will cushion your fall more than motorcycle textiles would and it offers the best protection against a road rash. The fact that leather also lasts through multiple crashes whilst textiles will probably only last through one, says a lot about the difference in protection and impact between the two materials.
The textiles vs leathers debate basically comes down to protection vs everything else.
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Offline roadie

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Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
« Reply #67 on: December 07, 2011, 12:41:26 PM »
hey bagger, yeah read that stuff, but my question is "says who?"  I've seen these numbers high and low, but never a source other than the author.  Almost reminds me of those viral rumors that get spread.  I'm not doubting the numbers, just want to see what lab determined them.

Have said all that, I'm happy in my motoport 1000 denier gear. I know "feel safe" doesn't equate to "safe" but i feel better protected than alot of yahoos i see riding with just a vest  and jeans. :-)
Will

Offline Bagger

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Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2011, 12:46:10 PM »
I get ya, Will .... I run into this question ... "Says who, where's the research?" in my business all the time.  "4 outa 5 dentists recommend ... yada, yada".  Whatever, eh.

I'll contact a couple of the manufactures of the gear and see if they have any laboratory test regarding durability of their fabrics in slides.

I remember reading the 75 lb sandbag dragging various materials behind a pickup several years ago.  I guess that is about as good a lab report as you can get in the field.
"I'm not a vigilante ... I'm just an undocumented border patrol agent."

Offline roadie

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Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2011, 12:46:50 PM »
BTW that clover looks like some really tough doodoo.
Will

Offline MrFurious

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Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2011, 12:49:12 PM »
I agree 100% Roadie! 

I recall reading somewhere that when the new EN standard for abrasion resistance was first implemented there were only two test machines in existence - the original at Cambridge University and a second they made for an unnamed Lab.  That would have been 8-10 years ago though, so I'm sure there are a few more floating around now. 

What I'd really like to see though is for the manufacturers to step up to the plate and provide test result data on all the materials they use in their products.  They have to have it tested to get a CE or EN rating anyway, and since they're in the business of manufacturing and selling protective gear you think they would want to tout their products specific level of protection (assuming it's worth bragging about).  Also, with so many manufacturers using their own special proprietary textile blends this data becomes even more important for separating the wheat from the chaff.   

In the case of Dupont Cordura, Gortex, Armacor, SuperFabric and others which are proprietary and licensed brand names, they [the manufacturer of the fabric] should have the material tested and publish the results so the manufacturers will know ahead of time what level of protection that particular material will provide their customers.

Sadly I don't see that every happening though as there's no way to mandate it in this country and the manufacturers aren't going to volunteer to spend a small fortune on lab tests when it's not mandated. 
Jim B.
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Offline roadie

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Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2011, 12:50:28 PM »
damn!  looks like it costs about 1000 bucks too.  whaddaya think bagger?  you seem to be our resident gear whore?  gonna get one?  :-D  too rich for my blood. 
Will

Offline MrFurious

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Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2011, 01:00:14 PM »
I get ya, Will .... I run into this question ... "Says who, where's the research?" in my business all the time.  "4 outa 5 dentists recommend ... yada, yada".  Whatever, eh.

I'll contact a couple of the manufactures of the gear and see if they have any laboratory test regarding durability of their fabrics in slides.

I remember reading the 75 lb sandbag dragging various materials behind a pickup several years ago.  I guess that is about as good a lab report as you can get in the field.

If you do contact some, specifically ask if they have Cambridge Abrasion test results.  That's the new test method used for CE/EN approval.  The old Martindale test method is shown in the video below and really doesn't test the fabric at the speed or pressure these fabrics see in a motorcycle environment.  The new Cambridge test uses a fixed force (anvil weight) and a specific grit belt sander and yields more real-world results.

http://youtu.be/nyZGpqM2xBU

Also, here's a video showing the CE burst test on a pair of Dragon Jeans.

http://youtu.be/FTfjfHvKPmE

To test for burst strength, a small sample of the product is securely mounted to the top of a metal cylinder. Below the sample is a flexible membrane behind which water is pumped. The membrane distends, placing increasing pressure on the test specimen until, eventually, it fails. The water pressure at the point of failure is recorded.
Jim B.
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Offline MrFurious

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Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2011, 01:08:25 PM »
damn!  looks like it costs about 1000 bucks too.  whaddaya think bagger?  you seem to be our resident gear whore?  gonna get one?  :-D  too rich for my blood.

Yeah, and they don't have a single dealer in the U.S.   They don't list website links for their European dealers either, but it seems 700 euro's is the going price.
Jim B.
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Offline Bagger

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Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2011, 04:29:32 PM »
Well, Will and MrF .... 700 Euros is a lot presently.  But, with what is going on in the Euro Zone, I expect  the Clover to come down substantially. Maybe to $85 USDs, eh.

I did look at their web site, tho.  I'd have to order from Mexico which seems the closest dealer.  But, I'd be afraid that the Clover would be cloned in China and sold to me as an original copy.  BTDT2/3

I'd have to try the gear on before forking over some USDs ... even $85.

I've wondered about how to test the gear and how it holds up to a crash.  And, I think it would be difficult.  Yeah, you can drag the stuff with a 160 elb sack of sand behind a pickup and measure when sand came out.  But, this is just information that works only if one is sliding for several seconds in one position.  And, not be very relevant to 'real life' incidents.  I would think that some tumbling would occur as one offed the bike.  And, that this part of the gear would be in contact with the Tarmac for a bit and then another part and so on.

My concerns are more with the type and placement of the armor in the gear.  Kinda like a block tumbling down the driveway.  Just the sharp corners contact the Tarmac mostly.  The flat sides are rarely in contact with the driveway until momentum peters out.  JMO.

Hey, I'm certainly no materials engineer.  (don't think I'm a gear whore either, Will ... tho, I do have lots of 'stuff').  But, wearing some sort of protective gear ... jacket/pants/boots/helmet/gloves/codpiece ... should bode well for one if you get tossed off the bike.  The armor seems more important to me.





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Offline MrFurious

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Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
« Reply #75 on: December 07, 2011, 07:07:14 PM »
Found this earlier today which (thus far) is the best explanation of what they're testing for to achieve CE certification.

http://www.satrappeguide.com/motorcycle_ppe.php

One interesting thing to note is that they mention the EN 1621 standard is currently in the process of being changed to include additional tests to assess performance in high and low temperature environments plus after storage in humid conditions.  No doubt this has a lot to do with how the performance of d3o and other molecular armor changes across the temperature spectrum.

As for how to test the crash worthiness of any article of clothing, I think our best bet would be to get Myth Busters on board.  haha
Jim B.
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Offline Bagger

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Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
« Reply #76 on: December 07, 2011, 07:29:29 PM »
I'm always concerned when governments mandate that various companies give them products to test awarding winners and losers based on some group of bureaucrat's ideas of what is needed for the common good without any clues to real life situations.

Over regulation.

Instead of relying on some government to conduct tests ... the motorcycle industry could do so.  They at least know what is going on with motorcycle riders and how they ride.  What they wear and why they wear it.

And, perhaps independent testing agencies could develop tests and conduct same as well.  Consumer's Reports and Motorcycle Consumer News come to mind.  There should be more that do not take money from the companies that they are testing ... just from subscribers.  The cream rises to the top, so to speak.

There's a niche' here.

When the state/feds get involved ... it just costs the tax payers a bundle and the results take forever with little base ground.  And, the results are not without PC.

Just my li'l opinions.
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Offline Maille Man

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Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
« Reply #77 on: December 07, 2011, 08:17:23 PM »
Results of a real world test of a pair of Field Sheer 600D pants.  I don't know how fast I was going at the point of get off, but I was HARD on the brakes from 65MPH.  With only both wrists and ankles sprained and a throbbing knee, I have to believe I bled off at least half my speed before dumping.  From what I remember, I did more bouncing and rolling than I did sliding.

Right knee


Right hip


Seat

Offline roadie

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Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
« Reply #78 on: December 08, 2011, 12:51:49 AM »

Hey, I'm certainly no materials engineer.  (don't think I'm a gear whore either, Will ... tho, I do have lots of 'stuff').  But, wearing some sort of protective gear ... jacket/pants/boots/helmet/gloves/codpiece ... should bode well for one if you get tossed off the bike.  The armor seems more important to me


Meant it in jest Bagger.  Mea culpa ma friend.
Will

Offline Bagger

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Re: Thoughts on riding pants (or 2-piece suit)
« Reply #79 on: December 08, 2011, 04:33:29 AM »
Meant it in jest Bagger.  Mea culpa ma friend.

I took it in jest, too, m'friend.  All's always good here.
"I'm not a vigilante ... I'm just an undocumented border patrol agent."