Will the Concours Live Again?

[maxtog]

Has been a while since we had a speculative thread...

Now that the Concours has been dead in the USA/CA for a year and a half (and 6 years in the other markets), one wonders if Kawasaki will ever make a real sport touring bike again, a new Concours?  The bike it is based on, the ZX-14 is still alive (surprisingly), so until that dies, it certainly unlikely.

Please don't point to the H2SX as a replacement, it is not a real sport tourer.  Chain drive, small fixed windscreen, seating/bar position, short frame, narrow fairings, shorter range, etc, it is more of a relaxed sport bike with several  touring features (heated grips, KIPASS, cruise, and OPTIONAL panniers), and at a vastly higher price.  It is close in some ways, nice (for sure) but not quite what most people would think of as a Concours replacement.  It could be made into one, though, if Kawasaki felt the desire.  Add shaft drive, keep the electronics, but add an analog speedometer as well on a wider dash, widen the fairings a bit, add a real/adjustable/power windscreen, raise the bars, up the tank to 6+ gal, include the panniers, and they might have it.

Anyway, I suspect that tastes have changed permanently and we will not see the name "Concours" again (or "GTR" for our non-American friends).

[Big Red]

Please don't point to the H2SX as a replacement, it is not a real sport tourer.

Glad I'm not the only one.

I really hope they bring to market another.

[Boomer]

I'm realistic about the ZG/Concours/GTR and don't expect a new one any time soon, if ever. 

The market for motorcycles has changed considerably and whilst it will no doubt change again, gone are the days when a motorcycle was your first (cheap) mode of transport and as a consequence motorcycles are now seen as a hobby by most. If we ever do see another Kawasaki Sport Tourer then it will almost certainly be all electric and whilst it could be a hoot to ride it will always lack the growl/howl of an inline Kawasaki 4.

Motorcycling will continue and tastes and styles will evolve as they have during our lifetimes, but in different ways.
Personally, I hate the current angular fashion in both motorcycles and cars. They are aiming to look futuristic but end up looking cheap and plastic.

I also dislike the ongoing gadget wars with ever greater complexity leading to them being all but impossible to service yourself, not to mention the gadgets that interfere with your driving/riding like linked brakes, lane assist, speed limiters, automatic braking, and the ever increasing NAGWARE that modern cars are festooned with, and will no doubt soon get put onto motorcycles just because they can. I'm fine with emergency systems like ABS and Automatic Emergency Braking though.

[maxtog]

Yeah.  And I might even appreciate an electric motorcycle... hard to know right now, since I have never driven one.  I doubt I would miss the noise/heat/vibration, but the lack of shifting would be very odd and fundamentally change the experience.  I certainly wouldn't miss the maintenance of an ICE.  Weight/range would be the major challenge, but that might get solved at some point.

And I am totally with you on the angular crap.  I hate it.  I think many of the current cars (and motorcycles) are hideously ugly- what Acura did was beyond ugly (they are scaling it back now), and Toyota/Lexus with these horrible huge grills.... ug.  I look at my [now old] Infini G37S, with its small grill, curves, swoops, and lumps and STILL think it is just sexy and classic/classy.

I admit that I love gadgetry.  But ONLY if it is done right and has no nag crap.  I want full control and the ability to turn something off and STAY OFF ALWAYS.  I want physical controls for all the important things.  I want an analog speedometer, even if it is just simulated on a screen, just make it an option; not difficult on a multi-purpose screen.  Although I can appreciate the desire for simple.

[dvitous]

Not that it matters to me - since I've only put 1k+ miles or so on my C10 since Covid (when I tripped 50k miles on my 99) - couldn't justify a new bike these days.


But one thing I noticed at the motorcycle shows (also gone it seems?)... is that bikes aren't made for the short-inseam demographic.  Just about every new bike I'd sit on (non-cruiser) - was a tough reach for a 30" inseam.  Even the Indian standards.


My C10 is a stretch... C14, even moreso.  It's a tall man (or woman!)'s game

[PH14]

An electric sport tourer really wouldn't be much of a sport tourer, or a tourer. As much as I appreciate electric bikes, and cars for that matter, neither fulfill by needs. Touring with an electric bike would be like trying to tour with a Sportster with a peanut tank that takes an hour and a half to fill the tank. It would be impractical to say the least.

Those numbers were based on a Zero SR/S. That is just the bike, not loaded down with luggage and a passenger. I tour a lot two up. Add that extra weight, sorry to my wife for calling her extra weight, and the range will go down. The range will also go down due to the wind resistance of the bags. Add a windshield that the typical sport touring individual would want on a long day of touring, and the range will go down even more.

Adding bigger batteries would make the bike heavier and more unwieldily, with diminishing returns. The battery capacity is simply not there right now to make a feasible touring bike. For those thinking it will be soon don't really understand batteries and the technology. There will not be an exponential increase in battery technology like there was for computer processing technology.

Electric bikes are incredibly fun to ride, and I personally really like them, but they aren't going to work for touring anytime soon.

[maxtog]

For those thinking it will be soon don't really understand batteries and the technology. There will not be an exponential increase in battery technology like there was for computer processing technology.

Indeed.  The next major change will be just the shift to safer batteries that have a longer service life.  But they aren't going to get radically lighter or more dense for a long time.  We are many years away from a powerful electric motorcycle that also has reasonable weight and also with a long range.  And for sport-touring, range is a very important factor.  Many complain (well, at least I do) about the Concours' 6.1 gal tank being not quite large enough.  And that is a reliable 250+ mile range under almost any condition.

[maxtog]

bikes aren't made for the short-inseam demographic.  Just about every new bike I'd sit on (non-cruiser) - was a tough reach for a 30" inseam.

Outside of cruisers, they haven't been in a long, long time.  Hence my having to lower the Concours, get a lower seat, AND having to wear taller boots.

http://zggtr.org/index.php?topic=260.0

[Boomer]

You are both right and wrong about batteries. Yes, capacity (energy density) increases are slowing down (but they are still happening), but the really big changes are in recharge times. Many of the newer generation of solid-state batteries have charge times of under 5 minutes from 10% to 80% and are getting faster. Of course they need 500kWh capable chargers but the other advantage of solid-state is that they can't leak so fires are much less of hazard.

I have ridden 2 electric motorcycles, a Zero SR/F and an Energica EsseEsse9 and whilst the instant torque is fun, the silence/whine is odd and they are HEAVY for what they are.
Chances are I'll never own an electric motorcycle, but never say never. 

W.r.t. size I have the opposite problem to you guys.
Most bikes (especially sports-bikes) are sized for Lilliputians from my perspective, but the C10/C14 do suit me with some modifications.

[PH14]

You are both right and wrong about batteries. Yes, capacity (energy density) increases are slowing down (but they are still happening), but the really big changes are in recharge times. Many of the newer generation of solid-state batteries have charge times of under 5 minutes from 10% to 80% and are getting faster. Of course they need 500kWh capable chargers but the other advantage of solid-state is that they can't leak so fires are much less of hazard.

I have ridden 2 electric motorcycles, a Zero SR/F and an Energica EsseEsse9 and whilst the instant torque is fun, the silence/whine is odd and they are HEAVY for what they are.
Chances are I'll never own an electric motorcycle, but never say never. 

W.r.t. size I have the opposite problem to you guys.
Most bikes (especially sports-bikes) are sized for Lilliputians from my perspective, but the C10/C14 do suit me with some modifications.

No, we aren't wrong. Yes, some newer batteries have faster charging times, but 10% to 80% on a vehicle will only get around 100 miles on a charge, without baggage, and without a windshield, and without a passenger, still won't be good enough for a sport touring bike. SO, 80% of 100 is 80 miles, without the aforementioned bags, windshield and passenger. Chances are, with the added drag and weight of the bags, and windshield, and passenger, you will be lucky to get 50-60 miles on the highway.

I agree with your thoughts on riding electric motorcycles, they are quick and fun to ride, but the technology is not there for any form of touring bike. Motorcycles have a problem when trying to make an electric bike, and that is space and weight limits for the battery. You simply do not have the space available for a sufficiently sized battery necessary for long distances as compared to a car. That will not change for a very long time.

[BruceR]

I think the segment lost itself.  They've taken a lot of 'sport' out of sport touring.  Bigger engines and bigger bikes, getting closer to Goldwing than Ninja than ever before.  While I love the power on tap from the 1400cc motor, my C14 replacement will be smaller displacement.  I wish the VFR800 with bags was still available.  I know there's not a lot of room for 2 people on that, but most of my riding any more is 1 up.  Ever since I got a convertible, the wife prefers that over the bike for any weekend trips.  So a smaller, more nimble bike will be in the garage.  And my Concours sadly sits in the corner waiting for me to pick up my helmet.

[Boomer]

If you want something the size of a VFR800 then you are spoilt for choice.
Kawasaki Ninja 1000SX, Kawasaki H2 SX, Suzuki GSX-S1000GT+ as well as a plethora of "Crossover" ST bikes loosely based on Trail styling like the NT1100, GSX-S1000GX+, Tracer 9GT+, & Versys 1000.
You can also choose just about any sports-bike, fit hard bags, bar risers and a taller screen and you have your VFR800ST.

Now if you want shaft-drive or have a non-standard body (5'10", 165lbs, etc.) then you are **** out of luck just like the rest of us. 

[BruceR]

Yes, the Suzuki GT is on the short list.  I have fond memories of my old GS750E.  Not really of a fan of the ADV or ADV-lite style bikes.  I would like to find cruise control, but I may be out of luck unless I add it myself
edit:  just read a review of the Suzuki GSX-S100GT and it says cruise control so I'm good

[PH14]

I think the segment lost itself.  They've taken a lot of 'sport' out of sport touring.  Bigger engines and bigger bikes, getting closer to Goldwing than Ninja than ever before.  While I love the power on tap from the 1400cc motor, my C14 replacement will be smaller displacement.  I wish the VFR800 with bags was still available.  I know there's not a lot of room for 2 people on that, but most of my riding any more is 1 up.  Ever since I got a convertible, the wife prefers that over the bike for any weekend trips.  So a smaller, more nimble bike will be in the garage.  And my Concours sadly sits in the corner waiting for me to pick up my helmet.

A lot of truth in that, though I still like the C14 as a sport tourer. One funny thing about the C14 is that in the early promo, Kawasaki touted the fact the C14 didn't have linked brakes because it was a true sport tourer, and that linked brakes didn't belong on a sport bike, then they linked the brakes, badly at first, and had to stop mentioning that.    That is the reason I bought the 2009 new in 2010 over the 2010 thet had in stock that had ABS. I wanted non-ABS and didn't want linked brakes. I don't want linked brakes on a sport bike. The C14 performs well in the twisties, and still gives decent long range comfort for two people. A smaller motorcycle would not be as comfortable two up, though I actually love smaller bike, such as the VFR. For just me, I like bikes even smaller than the VFR.

Still, I bought the Concours while I was single, to replace my RC51, that also saw touring duty. I would ride long distance on it, even riding 760 miles in a day traveling to Iowa to see my parents. I wish I had kept that bike, but the Concours was a better bike for the typ of riding I was doing.

[PH14]

Yes, the Suzuki GT is on the short list.  I have fond memories of my old GS750E.  Not really of a fan of the ADV or ADV-lite style bikes.  I would like to find cruise control, but I may be out of luck unless I add it myself
edit:  just read a review of the Suzuki GSX-S100GT and it says cruise control so I'm good

Great looking bike, and great bags. I think the bags are better than the new Wing. They truly ruined the bags on the new Wings. There are only two things that bother me about it over the C14, chain drive, though that isn't too bad, and the body work doesn't look like it would offer as much protection from the elements as the C14 does, namely on the legs. I think Suzuki came up with a fantastic bike though, and it is very tempting, mainly due to the much lower weight. That and the price is very reasonable.

[maxtog]

There are only two things that bother me about it over the C14, chain drive, and the body work doesn't look like it would offer as much protection from the elements as the C14 does

As you said (chain, body), but also no adjustable windscreen (at all, not even manually), which is a big thing on my list.  Also would be hard to give up the power (flashed C14 has a LOT more low torque) although with 100lb less weight would matter.  Not thrilled about no analog speedometer display (but I might have to just give up on that).  Plus it has much lower stated range (5gal, 35.5mpg 178 miles).  Some claim it will go 200, but hmmm.  Again, I can get at least 250 on the C14 under any conditions (and often much higher).

That and the price is very reasonable

Remember to add another $830 for the panniers and windscreen.  Still reasonable, though.

[Big Red]

I kinda suspect in a few years I'll be looking at a FJR... Keeping my C14, though.

[Boomer]

If you want a new FJR1300 then get it soon as they have already been dropped in the UK/EU (dropped in 2021) and will soon follow in the USA 
Over here I now have a choice of an R1250RT, one of several K1600's,.....or the Goldwing, none of which appeal to me.
If I have to replace the C14 I will almost certainly be replacing it with a used C14,.... or I may just get another low mileage C10 and ride it into the ground.

[BruceR]

Yes in any market other than the US, the C14 and FJR are not even mentioned as sport touring options anymore.  For those wanting a new bike, anyway.  I'm happy that I've held off on getting a new Garmin for the bike.  With the new displays on bikes like the Honda I can use Waze or Google Maps from my phone and display on the dash.  That is a new gadget I actually like.  I'll miss the C14's power when I do trade it, but I've smiled on every bike I've ever owned.

[PH14]

As you said (chain, body), but also no adjustable windscreen (at all, not even manually), which is a big thing on my list.  Also would be hard to give up the power (flashed C14 has a LOT more low torque) although with 100lb less weight would matter.  Not thrilled about no analog speedometer display (but I might have to just give up on that).  Plus it has much lower stated range (5gal, 35.5mpg 178 miles).  Some claim it will go 200, but hmmm.  Again, I can get at least 250 on the C14 under any conditions (and often much higher).

Remember to add another $830 for the panniers and windscreen.  Still reasonable, though.

As for the fuel mileage, Rider Magazine admitted it can get better since they were riding it with higher revs. Real world reports show it much higher than they got in their testing.