Author Topic: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.  (Read 97168 times)

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #200 on: August 28, 2024, 07:07:05 AM »
As this is an older bike, I would also suspect grounds being corroded.  From what I recall there are grounds that are tied together in the harnesses that have gotten corroded in the past and caused issues..
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Offline dl1911

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #201 on: August 29, 2024, 07:15:17 AM »
Bagger John,
Just a slight correction on the previous. Looking back thru my notes the "Ghost" codes from the dealer were -79- and -1526-. I have no idea where they came up with these numbers? I didnt see anything resembling those when we had your KDS hooked up.

I appreciate your effort on this and even though we havent found the problem I am optimistic and Im learning even more about troubleshooting electronics!

If there is anything you need from me please dont hesitate to ask.

Dave

Offline Bagger John

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #202 on: August 29, 2024, 12:52:57 PM »
I got the peak detector and needle adapters in today. Waiting on the coil harness adapters,

We're definitely going to check grounds. Everything related to ECU and coils are suspect until proven otherwise...

Offline Freddy

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #203 on: September 18, 2024, 05:54:42 AM »
BJ or dl - any updates?
The best substitute for brains is .............what?

Offline Bagger John

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #204 on: September 18, 2024, 01:13:59 PM »
Heading back to Dave's place this Saturday for more testing. The last couple weeks were tied up preparing for a new concrete driveway then letting it cure to the point I could get a bike out on the surface.

Money well spent; I finally have a nice surface on which to wash my bikes and roll them out.

Phase II and III are getting a 24x32 pole building garage off the lower (still gravel) driveway area then concreting both the inside of the new garage and the remainder of the driveway.

Must. Resist. Temptation. To. Lay. Burnout...

Back to our scheduled troubleshooting.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2024, 03:48:32 PM by Bagger John »

Offline Bagger John

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #205 on: September 22, 2024, 10:30:00 AM »
I'll let Dave update the thread in his own words, but I put that bike out of my misery... :rotflmao:

Offline maxtog

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #206 on: September 22, 2024, 05:28:20 PM »
 :popcorn:
 :hitfan:
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline Freddy

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #207 on: September 22, 2024, 06:30:06 PM »
I'll let Dave update the thread in his own words, but I put that bike out of my misery... :rotflmao:

Is it   :battle:  or   :thumbs:

Dave - where are you???
The best substitute for brains is .............what?

Offline dl1911

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #208 on: September 23, 2024, 07:30:44 AM »
Well for all that has been following this thread and offered up all the help and advice I am here to say a huge THANK YOU ALL!!

THE CONCOURS IS ALIVE AND WELL. SHE RUNS AS GOOD AS SHE DID BEFORE THIS WHOLE ADVENTURE!!!!!!

Let me say that without Bagger Johns help on this bike the future would have been grim for this ole girl. Bagger Johns persistence, knowledge and willingness to help another biker out is second to none. His skill at diagnosing is better than anyone I have ever seen and I cannot Thank him enough! I will be forever in his debt!

Let me recap slightly before I get to the actual problem. In the beginning I had a very strange condition were I had nothing coming from the bike. That led to many hours of tearing the bike apart. Looking at sensors, connections, continuity of circuits which eventually lead to a broken #10 power wire going from the rectifier to the back of the bike. I repaired the wire and the bike came back to life, however I still had a crank no start condition. I spent hours researching, complaining and trying to figure out why this damn thing wouldnt start! Eventually I acquired another wiring harness and replaced the original thinking that if that one wire was broken there may be more. Still crank no start.

I finally broke down and took it to the dealer where all the professionals are!! HA. As all know that was a waist of $250 dollars. After being separated from my bike for 5 weeks while it sat in the corner at the dealer my savior contacted me thru this website named Bagger John offering to help. I retrieved the bike from the dealer and made arrangements to meet with John.

John was generous enough to ride almost 2 hours with his KDS software and associated equipment. Our first diagnosis session consisted of registering my spare ECU and looking at what the bike was doing. Thru the software we could see all the computers were talking to each other so it was still a mystery as to why we had no spark. (Or so I thought)

John came back this past Saturday prepared with new equipment and ideas! We performed a signal test on the individual coils and it showed we should have spark. At the suggestion of a friend of mine I removed the air cleaner and sprayed a little bit of starting fluid into the airbox. The bike sputtered indicting we did in fact have spark. AH HAH progress!!!

The next thing to check was fuel delivery! John performed a signal test on the individual injectors! Uh Oh something is amiss! My heart dropped thinking it must be something in the KiPass ECU not pulsing the injectors. John said to me dont worry we are going to figure it out! At this point Im loosing hope thinking if I have to replace the KiPAss ECU and all associated equipment it was over. I cannot afford to put $1500 into a $3500 motorcycle!! We started looking in the FSM and the open page mentioned checking the bike down sensor!!

John asked me about it and I said in the beginning I had removed that sensor and we ohmed it out to assure it wasnt bad. It ohmed out perfect so I re-installed it. I decided to go ahead and pull it again just to make sure I wasnt correct the first time I checked it.
I pulled out my flashlight to look at the sensor to see what I was going to need to remove it. As I looked up into the tail of the bike I saw the sensor and noticed a huge problem.

Can you guess what the problem was???

All this time after I installed the new wiring harness and the bike was a crank no start was because................


My dumbass installed the bike down sensor upside down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


John was getting ready to leave because he had a commitment he had to get to so I asked him if he would hang out just long enough to let me pull the sensor, flip it over and just see. He agreed, I unbolted the sensor and just held it in the proper orientation, hit the start button and the bike immediately fired off and came to life..

I cannot explain in words the feeling of embarrassment, shame, frustration and relief I felt at that moment! I have and would never make any claim at being a mechanic but I am pretty sharp at paying attention to details like working on mechanical things! I cannot believe I lost almost 3 riding season because of such a stupid mistake!

The bike is back together, all that is left is for me to install my comms, GPS, change fluids, clean it up, put plates and insurance on it and maybe go for a ride!!

THANK YOU TO ALL THAT STUCK THROUGH THIS WITH ME AND OFFERED HELP AND ADVICE!! All the THANKS to Bagger John! Dude you saved me.....LOL

Two notes of reference:

1. If your security light blinks quickly while cranking check the Bike Down Sensor for function!!!! or orientation?

2. We are all human and are subject to brain dead ridiculously stupid mistakes! I was told by an ole wise man that as long as your trying your going to make mistakes! Keep Trying!

See ya on the road! Be safe everyone!

Offline Big Red

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #209 on: September 23, 2024, 10:05:41 AM »
Whew! What a rollercoaster! I'm glad you and Bagger John were able to figure it out. I bet that first fire was so sweet.
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Offline Bagger John

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #210 on: September 23, 2024, 03:12:11 PM »
I'll add one afterthought:

Don't mind going to help someone at all. I was employed in the industry professionally. My work ethic sometimes was at loggerheads with the shop owners, as I want to do it right and they usually wanted it done RIGHT NOW.

We used to have Tech Sessions in Ohio when I was the VRCC Tech Rep. I'd ride to these (sometimes for several hours) and teach the members how to do routine maintenance to their bikes, occasionally tackling very difficult repairs in member's garages. One such instance stands out in my mind: A buddy from Mentor was charged for a complete rear-end service when he had his GL1500C in for a tire change, but I'm the suspicious type and insisted on pulling the wheel plus final drive off at one of these Sessions.

What we found was that the drive splines were nothing but powdered rust. it was a miracle he got the bike to the Session in the first place. One of the crew had a spare rear end so we swapped things and got him home, then had the other one rebuilt.

My friend was charged decent money for the fact that particular item was overlooked. Any mechanic worth his or her salt would have felt the play if the bike was suspended on the shop's drop table and the assembly checked prior to removal...and the service manual specifically states to inspect such things at tire changes.

Nothing pi$$es me off more than to be charged for something that wasn't even remotely attempted.

Glad I was able to get Dave back in the wind on this one.

Offline maxtog

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #211 on: September 23, 2024, 03:36:27 PM »
1) I want to know why the fancy C14 can't display "BIKE DOWN" or "TIP OVER SENSOR" or something useful on the display!!!!

2) I also want to know why there is no diagnostic code produced in that situation.

The only reasons I can think of that it couldn't or wouldn't would be:

1) The sensor is outside the domain of the ECU (it might be completely autonomous cut of the fuel system)

2) Poor design decision (seems like it would make sense to go through the ECU, unless it is a critical fail-safe feature).

Inquiring minds want to know!  (And are too lazy to figure it out in the wiring diagram)
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, BearingUp Shifter, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,etc

Offline PH14

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #212 on: September 23, 2024, 03:40:37 PM »
Now I feel a little guilty. A while back I was going through the FSM trying to figure out if the tip over sensor would result in the issues you had. I just didn't post anything, I guess I should have.  :banghead: :rotflmao: 

Oh well, I'm glad you figured it out.

Offline Bagger John

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #213 on: September 23, 2024, 04:11:28 PM »
1) I want to know why the fancy C14 can't display "BIKE DOWN" or "TIP OVER SENSOR" or something useful on the display!!!!

2) I also want to know why there is no diagnostic code produced in that situation.

The only reasons I can think of that it couldn't or wouldn't would be:

1) The sensor is outside the domain of the ECU (it might be completely autonomous cut of the fuel system)

2) Poor design decision (seems like it would make sense to go through the ECU, unless it is a critical fail-safe feature).

Inquiring minds want to know!  (And are too lazy to figure it out in the wiring diagram)
It will show a failure code if faulty (i.e., cannot be shown as connected to the ECU) but a simple tilt sensor won't show orientation. Nor would you want it to if leaned over very far, as the dash would constantly signal false alarms.

Building more capacity into the sensors drives the cost of the vehicle up, and if it's being built to a price point that simply won't fly.

Offline Bagger John

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #214 on: September 23, 2024, 04:13:37 PM »
It will show a failure code if faulty (i.e., cannot be shown as connected to the ECU) but a simple tilt sensor won't show orientation. Nor would you want it to if leaned over very far, as the dash would constantly signal false alarms.

Building more capacity into the sensors drives the cost of the vehicle up, and if it's being built to a price point that simply won't fly.
I'd seen one mention on the 'Net regarding such. Once we verified spark, a systematic inspection of every sensor that could halt the FI operation was to be undertaken. It just so happened we started with the right one.

Offline Freddy

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #215 on: September 23, 2024, 05:59:38 PM »
 :banana    :chugbeer:   A remarkably good and 'simple' end to a a looong sad story.  Well done BJ. 



The best substitute for brains is .............what?

Offline Bagger John

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #216 on: September 23, 2024, 06:51:34 PM »
Another addendum:

The FI power test as described in the service manual is totally wrong. Incorrect connector and wrong wire shown in the pictorials.

Apparently the proofreading team got too heavily into the sake.

Offline Freddy

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #217 on: September 23, 2024, 07:32:33 PM »
 :yikes:   :battle:   :facepalm:

That really would've helped big time - NOT
The best substitute for brains is .............what?

Offline Boomer

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #218 on: September 24, 2024, 02:35:22 AM »
Excellent news. Glad she is back up and running.  ;D :chugbeer: :thumbs: :banana

Don't beat yourself up over the sensor. We all do it.
I did exactly the same many years ago on a car.
I fitted new brake calipers all around and could not understand why I couldn't get all the air out.
3 months it took me to finally fix it. Car was looked at by 2 different mechanics and several of my friends.
I finally noticed it when one day I stood back from the car in frustration :banghead: with thoughts of rags and matches in my head.
I had fitted the new calipers on the wrong sides so they were swapped left-right and the bleed nipples were at the bottom of the calipers. :facepalm:
1 hour to swap them to the correct sides and hey-presto, a rock hard brake pedal!!
George "Boomer" Garratt
Wickford, UK


Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: So after her winter nap I go to start and have nothing.
« Reply #219 on: September 26, 2024, 05:48:21 AM »
Excellent news indeed!  Truly a Haroldo thread!
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