Author Topic: Died and won't start  (Read 14729 times)

Offline lather

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Re: Died and won't start
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2017, 06:22:38 PM »
Was this the first time since the valve adjustment that you had revved it that high?
Possibly. But Last Sunday I rode twisties with an  R1M with a tweaked motor. He was parking it in the corners and blasting out at the exit. I couldn't quite stay with him on the straights but I was trying just for grins. Probably saw 9500 rpm often.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Died and won't start
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2017, 10:53:23 PM »
It is possible that there is enough timing overlap at full VVT advance to prevent any air pumping action from the engine. ??

Wow, that would really surprise me if it were!  Could it really leave all  valves open enough at activation to have both open as the same time (ex & in) for a short amount of time?  Even if it did, there should still be some significant pumping compression that would be noticeable at the exhaust system when hitting the starter, right?
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Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: Died and won't start
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2017, 07:19:36 AM »
Wow, that would really surprise me if it were!  Could it really leave all  valves open enough at activation to have both open as the same time (ex & in) for a short amount of time?  Even if it did, there should still be some significant pumping compression that would be noticeable at the exhaust system when hitting the starter, right?

It would never work... if there was so much overlap the engine couldn't make compression, the engine couldn't run. Steve

Offline lather

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Re: Died and won't start - looking timing and VVT
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2017, 10:02:17 AM »
First look:


That's not how I timed the intake cam!

Note the missing finger! How the heck did that happen? I have a clear image of that wheel in my head from before the failure and thinking what an odd asymmetrical pattern. But I did not look close enough to see the broken metal

What do I do next? I am thinking order a timing wheel. But It appears the intake cam has jumped some teeth or the VVT has broken. The black mark you see on the VVT was drawn parallel to the head surface before I removed the cams.

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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Died and won't start
« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2017, 10:24:21 AM »
Yes. "Valve overlap" is the portion of the engine's rotation where both the intake and exhaust valves are open. Now obviously this period cannot be long enough on a fixed- cam timed engine to prevent it from being started and allowing it to idle. But on an engine that uses VVT it is possible that at max. cam advance, meant only for extremely high RPM usage, it is possible that the engine would fail to pump enough air to start and / or idle at all.

An excellent example of this is unlimited drag racing engines; note how fast they "idle" and how badly.... this is because basically they will NOT idle and so have to be ran much faster than what we would consider a reasonable idle speed to simply run at all. This is all due to the extreme cam timing overlap on these engines, which regularly cross the trap line at 13K RPM; they are designed for absolutely maximum output, with no regard to idle characteristics at all and as a result, they will not start or idle at normal 'starting' or 'idling' speeds.

I honestly cannot remember what the RPM is that the VVT system fully advances the intake cam on a C-14 but 7K RPM comes to mind; I do know that is when the secondary butterflies open. At any rate, and engine tuned to run 'best' at 7K RPM would indeed run poorly, if at all, at reasonable cranking or idling speeds, say, below 1,500 RPM or so.

Brian

Wow, that would really surprise me if it were!  Could it really leave all  valves open enough at activation to have both open as the same time (ex & in) for a short amount of time?  Even if it did, there should still be some significant pumping compression that would be noticeable at the exhaust system when hitting the starter, right?
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Died and won't start - looking timing and VVT
« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2017, 10:34:54 AM »
Extremely interesting and progress, at least toward knowing what is going on with your engine.

First of all, see if you can see anything around the periphery of the crankshaft timing wheel where a tooth may have struck; the usual place is the sensor itself- they loosen and then get struck by the very teeth they are sensing. If this is what happened, it may well be the root, beginning and end of your problem. What you have is a 'missing tooth' timing scheme that is missing an extra tooth, and going by the photo, it was pretty clearly broken off. Is there any chance you may have dropped a tool or something and struck the tooth when doing the valve adjust a few hundred miles ago? If the tooth were bent in (toward the center of the bike), perhaps that is what caused it to strike something. Also, is the timing wheel tight?

As to the valve timing, that may be a result and not actually causal regarding your problem; if the VVT was left fully advanced, that may well be perfectly normal as the engine shut down at very high RPM. There may not have been enough hydraulic pressure at that time or since (during cranking) to allow it to return to its original, 'zero', position. You may have to help it along; normally, the VVT will return to -0- timing and a shot- pin locks the timing in place until hydraulic pressure (from the oiling system) is high enough to unlock the shot- pin and then the advance valve controls the actual cam timing. It is basically a hydraulic vane motor that has two sides or alternate chambers; routing the oil to one side or the other is what causes the device to advance or retard the cam.

But I do believe your primary problem revolves (no pun intended) around that broken tooth. Also, check out the crank position sensor to see if it has been damaged by the tooth when it 'flew', even if it was never in the arc of the timing wheel itself. And you should look around for that tooth; it is somewhere around in the bottom of that engine and while it may not cause you any grief in the future, it cannot possibly have any benefit either so best if you found and removed it IMO.

The plot thickens but you now have the problem at hand I think.

Brian

First look:


That's not how I timed the intake cam!

Note the missing finger! How the heck did that happen? I have a clear image of that wheel in my head from before the failure and thinking what an odd asymmetrical pattern. But I did not look close enough to see the broken metal

What do I do next? I am thinking order a timing wheel. But It appears the intake cam has jumped some teeth or the VVT has broken. The black mark you see on the VVT was drawn parallel to the head surface before I removed the cams.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Died and won't start
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2017, 10:36:51 AM »
Another question: is the cam chain tight? Is the cam chain tensioner firmly (Boys!) resisting being pushed back? If the CCT failed, that could be the root of your problem, though you will still have to figure out how and why that tooth broke off the crank timing wheel.

Brian
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Offline lather

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Re: Died and won't start
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2017, 11:48:21 AM »
I looked for the tooth on the floor where I was working and did not find it It is not anywhere in the engine that I can see or reach with my eyes or fingers. My large magnetic probe is too large to get into the passages behind what I can see, and my small probe (oops) is broken, I will have to buy a new one. If that fails will need to drain the oil and hope something comes out with it.

I still feel certain that that tooth was already missing when I closed up the timing cover. But at my age nothing is truly certain. But i would think it would cause a noticeable miss at least.

The sensor is snug and no sign of a hit and there is plenty of clearance everywhere else around the perimeter. The chain is nice and tight. I have not removed the tensioner yet. Do you mean push against the tensioner from the chain side. I need a break and plan to ride the 08 to the Kawasaki dealership and order a timing wheel.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Died and won't start
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2017, 02:59:14 PM »
First things first: are you saying your 'probe' is too big to get into 'the passages behind'? Oh my.....

Last thing- Yes, I mean is the cam chain tensioner still tight enough to prevent the chain from gaining enough slack to cause a problem. And yes, I mean to push back on it from the 'inside' (Easy Boys!), which I do not think you can do but you can try tensioning the chain against the tensioner (trying to pull the 'bow' out of the chain where the tensioner is) and seeing if there is any appreciable give in the system. All I am trying to do is to rule out a bad CCT. You can also do this by carefully removing the CCT and seeing if you can push it back in, as the chain is always trying to do; the tensioner should be locked up tight as a bank vault and absolutely prevent you from moving it outward at all (it should be engaged in a tooth on the ratchet and not allow any retreat).

I believe the ECU will require that tooth to function properly. That said, I do not know for a fact that it will start / run without that tooth but I do know the firing timing would be far enough off (something like 10 degrees) to cause the bike to run poorly and / or without a lot of power- more than 1/2 of its potential power not available. There is no way you could ride a bike with the timing that far off and simply not notice. So I am assuming, by logical determination, that the tooth breaking off was the actual cause of your current situation. It is the root problem, and I do not think it could have been that way when you buttoned up the engine after a valve lash check / adjust.

All of the above said, it <may> depend on which way the crankshaft rotates because it is possible that if the missing tooth is on the leading side of the gap (the missing teeth), then the ECU <may> not respond to what amounts to correct timing but simply too big of a preceding gap.  Even so, if that was not the cause of your problem, you will need to find the actual cause anyway. But again, I believe it is the tooth falling / getting knocked off that started the chain of events that led to what you show in that photo (the intake cam timing being a result, not causal).

A missing tooth system works by sensing the first tooth AFTER the gap. So if the crankshaft turns clockwise in your photo, and I believe it does, then removing that tooth would retard the entire timing structure in the ECU by too much to go unnoticed.

There are also cam position sensors in the C-14 but I doubt they are sensitive enough to detect an [out of phase] condition between the crankshaft and camshaft(s) by one tooth; the ECU and the sensors are just not fast enough to catch that nor are they supposed to do so. The camshaft sensors are there to verify which part of the 720 degree crankshaft rotation the crankshaft happens to be in. Put another way, the crankshaft turns twice (720 degrees total) for a complete engine cycle so the ECU needs to know if the crank is passing -0- degrees rotation in the first turn or the second turn of the engine to determine spark plug firing.

Back to the beginning, I think it is important to determine if that lost tooth was the cause or not, and try to determine where it is. I doubt it rode an oil stream into the crankcase proper but I guess it is possible; either way, it should be sitting in the bottom end of the crankcase proper or the sidecase envelope somewhere. Of course it is possible that the broken tooth is not causal and is just a coincidence but I honestly do not think that is the case.

Shades of Haraldo's valve lash saga.....  :yikes:

Brian

I looked for the tooth on the floor where I was working and did not find it It is not anywhere in the engine that I can see or reach with my eyes or fingers. My large magnetic probe is too large to get into the passages behind what I can see, and my small probe (oops) is broken, I will have to buy a new one. If that fails will need to drain the oil and hope something comes out with it.

I still feel certain that that tooth was already missing when I closed up the timing cover. But at my age nothing is truly certain. But i would think it would cause a noticeable miss at least.

The sensor is snug and no sign of a hit and there is plenty of clearance everywhere else around the perimeter. The chain is nice and tight. I have not removed the tensioner yet. Do you mean push against the tensioner from the chain side. I need a break and plan to ride the 08 to the Kawasaki dealership and order a timing wheel.
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Offline lather

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Re: Died and won't start - some answers and new questions
« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2017, 05:11:44 PM »
 Should have a new the timing wheel Thursday or Friday. On way back from the dealer I stopped at Home depot and bought a nifty bendable magnetic pickup tool and that has produced some answers from the sump. Or at least new questions.




So why did the sprocket shear. Oiling problem? Cam cap bolts to tight.

I suspect the bolt head took out the timing tooth on its way down. I have not found the other head yet
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Offline jwh20

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Re: Died and won't start
« Reply #50 on: May 16, 2017, 05:19:53 PM »
Interesting...  When you had the engine apart did you remove the exhaust cam sprocket?  If not, then I'm going to assume it's as-is from the factory which is a safe bet that it's torqued properly.  I don't think this was caused by over-torqued cam cap bolts.  You can tighten them all you want and the threads in the head will strip but the cap won't really get tighter on the shaft.  It may distort but my money is on stripped threads first.

I think you'll see the issue once the cam is out.  Either something got in the way and blocked it from turning or one of the journals didn't get enough oil and it seized up.  Of course the problem now is that it's likely that at the last position of the camshaft one of the exhaust valves was open and is now bent.  Keep your fingers crossed though, it's possible that the head is OK...

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Died and won't start - some answers and new questions
« Reply #51 on: May 16, 2017, 07:35:11 PM »
Ah, more progress!

OK, assuming you did not touch the VVT bolts (there is no need to do so when checking / adjusting valve lash), I would jump ahead and assume the intake cam seized or at least partially seized. As another poster said, pull the intake cam and you should find the base problem.

It is possible that an O-ring on one of the oil- pipes was damaged during reassembly; I have replaced several of them that were nicked up from routine R&R. If one was damaged enough, perhaps you lost oil pressure to the cam bearing saddle(s) and that caused a cam seizure. It is also possible that a cam saddle bearing cap went on [not straight] and allowed the oil to pour out and not pressurize in the cam journals- those little guys are tricky, especially since you have to finish seating the camshafts against the valve springs by cranking the caps down with the bolts in the first place. Easy enough to have a problem with that. Again, look carefully at the bearing saddle caps before you unbolt or remove them to see if they are miss- seated or something similar. Another tell- tale is if one of the thin runners between the caps is bent or twisted.

I agree with you about the bolt head taking out the timing wheel; look closely all around the timing wheel with a strong light and you should see whatever the bolt head wedged against while shearing that tooth off.

I think you have found the root cause and can now find the 'trail of destruction', which is a great thing because it gives a lot of confidence in fixing the problem fully. It is still possible this is correctable although there is a possibility of damage to the cam bearing saddle(s) and valve to piston contact.

Brian

Should have a new the timing wheel Thursday or Friday. On way back from the dealer I stopped at Home depot and bought a nifty bendable magnetic pickup tool and that has produced some answers from the sump. Or at least new questions.



So why did the sprocket shear. Oiling problem? Cam cap bolts to tight.

I suspect the bolt head took out the timing tooth on its way down. I have not found the other head yet
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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Died and won't start
« Reply #52 on: May 16, 2017, 07:59:16 PM »
Shades of Haraldo's valve lash saga.....  :yikes:

Brian

I was thinking it, you said it.  :hail:
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Died and won't start
« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2017, 09:16:35 PM »
Hey, stuff happens and at least Haroldo was honest enough to 'fess up.  Even beyond that, he took all the ribbing (and man, did he get some serious, nuclear- level ribbing over that.....) like he was wearing big- boy pants. Everybody steps in it now and then and frankly, I have more respect for those people who admit than others who claim otherwise.  So if Bob made a mistake, and we do not know if that is so or not, I think he will just express it frankly. I have met Bob (and Mrs. Bob) and he seems like a stand- up guy without enough ego to get in the way.

And beyond that, a valve lash adjustment is kind of a big project, especially for a non- professional mechanic, and it is really quite easy to 'munch' one. I have done a handfull of them and all I would say is that I have not, to the best of my knowledge, muched one.... yet.

Man, I miss Haroldo.....  :'(  He has got a BMW story that absolutely dwarfs any C-14 story of his you ever heard; I cannot repeat it but it involves gasoline, a telephone book (soaked with gasoline.... Haroldo stories grow as they go), a torch (falling onto said phone book) and a stuck garage door (between Haroldo, the flaming phone book and sweet, sweet freedom). It all turned out fine though.... for everyone but the phone book, and perhaps a traumatized neighbor or two.

Brian

I was thinking it, you said it.  :hail:
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Offline zrx mitch

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Re: Died and won't start - some answers and new questions
« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2017, 09:18:42 PM »


So why did the sprocket shear. Oiling problem? Cam cap bolts to tight.

I suspect the bolt head took out the timing tooth on its way down. I have not found the other head yet

If the sprocket is cracked (I can't see it on this laptop), it is usually from the bolt head striking something before it is completely out of the hole. I haven't been in one of these motors yet, is there room for the bolt to clear the oil pipes if it is backing out? I would be checking for an impact point and damage. Unfortunately, bent valves are a probability.
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Offline kzz1king

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Re: Died and won't start
« Reply #55 on: May 17, 2017, 08:21:54 AM »


And beyond that, a valve lash adjustment is kind of a big project, especially for a non- professional mechanic, and it is really quite easy to 'munch' one. I have done a handfull of them and all I would say is that I have not, to the best of my knowledge, muched one.... yet.



Brian
Yep, I found it very nerve racking to say the least. I have about 500 miles or better on mine since and so far so good. This thread makes me nervous!

I have a burning bike in the garage story too! That one was a close call.Fortunately the garage door was open 8)
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Offline lather

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Re: Died and won't start
« Reply #56 on: May 17, 2017, 09:06:44 AM »
I can get a .014 (.35 mm) feeler under #4b exhaust.  :'( I measured it at .22mm after the adjustment. 4A and both 3s are not as bad but at least .010 in. Here are pictures of one of two oil pipe o-rings that look bad:


The picture of the second pipe came out blurred but there is similar damage to the o-ring. It has been suggested an oiling problem caused the cam seizure but there are also suggestions that the sprocket bolts just walked out

I am going to remove the cam caps and have a look. But it seems likely the head will have to come off.

In the overall scheme of things this is just a hiccup.

In December of 2000 our 1200 square foot wooden shop burned down when a stray dog we were sheltering from a hard freeze gnawed through the heating pad we were using to keep her bed warm. We lost an 84 Ninja 900, an 2000 Ninja 500 and a 99 CBR1100XX Blackbird.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Died and won't start
« Reply #57 on: May 17, 2017, 11:18:19 AM »
And the dog too? That is too bad (in addition to the loss of the motorcycles and the building of course).  A friend of mine lost his house to fire back around 2000 and in addition to all the things lost, some replaceable, some not, he lost four dogs he had saved from being put down a few years earlier.

Nice job of finding more of the trail of evidence. Too bad you have not found, at least not yet, the causal event that started this chain of events. I really doubt those bolts just walked out as it is not a problem normally and the odds of two bolts backing out are too high IMO. Shearing is more likely, and that had to have been caused by something REALLY sudden and severe resisting the rotation of the cam to cause that- I kind of doubt that the bearings seizing could be the culprit so maybe valve / piston strike did happen. ?? That would surely shock the system sufficiently to break things and I mean beyond the valve stems themselves.

At the point the head has to come off due to any type of internal damage, I would suggest thinking long and hard (yeah, this is where I would normally say it....) before starting such a project on a 2009 production motorcycle. Especially one where they are still made and readily available, both new and used, sometimes at really surprisingly low prices. Certainly if you liked to tinker with mechanics, or wanted to modify the bike / engine with something like a turbo or anything else custom but just to get a stock engine / chassis back in service is probably not economically sound. As always, I am not spending your money or telling you how you should do so but even just R&R'ing an engine will be a lot of work if it is not something you actually enjoy doing as a hobby. To farm it out will also be cost- prohibitive, again because there is so much labor. So even swapping the engine for another one is economically questionable IMO, when compared to buying another used C-14 and either parting this one out or selling the hulk as a non- running parts bike.

Brian

I can get a .014 (.35 mm) feeler under #4b exhaust.  :'( I measured it at .22mm after the adjustment. 4A and both 3s are not as bad but at least .010 in. Here are pictures of one of two oil pipe o-rings that look bad:


The picture of the second pipe came out blurred but there is similar damage to the o-ring. It has been suggested an oiling problem caused the cam seizure but there are also suggestions that the sprocket bolts just walked out

I am going to remove the cam caps and have a look. But it seems likely the head will have to come off.

In the overall scheme of things this is just a hiccup.

In December of 2000 our 1200 square foot wooden shop burned down when a stray dog we were sheltering from a hard freeze gnawed through the heating pad we were using to keep her bed warm. We lost an 84 Ninja 900, an 2000 Ninja 500 and a 99 CBR1100XX Blackbird.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline lather

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Re: Died and won't start
« Reply #58 on: May 17, 2017, 11:45:53 AM »
Thanks for your thoughts, they are in line with my own at this time. I have already started removing farkles to mount (whoa!) on the 08 to get it ready for the MSTA national in June.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Died and won't start
« Reply #59 on: May 17, 2017, 12:11:36 PM »
Ah, the good ole' "Mounting Farkles": yep, that outta' take your mind off your troubles.

 ;D

Look at the bright side: you are probably a year ahead of me in looking for that clean, nice, excellent running but cheap C-14.... so we are unlikely to run into each other in that dusty Oklahoma town, trying to underbid each other for the same bike.

Brian

Thanks for your thoughts, they are in line with my own at this time. I have already started removing farkles to mount (whoa!) on the 08 to get it ready for the MSTA national in June.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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