No start!

[PlaynInPeoria]

2012 C14, bought new January 2013.    32k on it, never a problem.   Just rode it 150 miles, parked it and went to ride it to work this morning.  Hit the starter and it spun a bit but didn't catch, made a funny noise right about the time I let off the button.   Cranked on it again, it spun like crazy but didn't fire, but now it sounds different, less noise?   It used to seem like more noise happened, now it's less.  I gave up and jumped on the Speed Triple because I had to get to work, but it's really bothering me.  I can hear the fuel pump running when I key on, but it seems to run a bit longer than normal?

Bike in neutral, kickstand up, kill switch on, gas in tank.   I will double check some things and try again.  I had 194 miles on the tank, so I filled up and rode home 75 miles and parked it on Saturday, now Monday a.m. it won't start.

HELP!!/Thanks

[stevewfl]

Simplest thing 1st to try seems to be swap the battery with the other bike 

[maxtog]

Yep... battery, battery, battery.  The C14 acts STRANGELY when the battery is not right (either dying or the connections are loose).

[jwh20]

Ditto on the battery connections or the battery itself.  I'm guessing you're hearing the starter motor spin but not enough power to trigger the solenoid that engages the starter with the engine.  If that checks out the solenoid connection or the solenoid itself might be the problem.  But check the most obvious things first.

[Freddy]

........... I'm guessing you're hearing the starter motor spin but not enough power to trigger the solenoid that engages the starter with the engine.  If that checks out the solenoid connection or the solenoid itself might be the problem. 

I'd like to see that thing.

[PlaynInPeoria]

It's spinning the engine, watch the video.  You can hear the fuel pump run when I turn on the key.  An interesting bit of info is the really strange sound it makes when the starter is engaged.

Could the solenoid not be engaging and still have the engine blow out the exhaust and move the paper?

Battery shows 12.75 volts and drops to 11.xx when the starter is running. I suppose I could throw the trickle charger on it.  I have left the key on many times, I am a forgetful fool.


Video
https://flic.kr/p/wf7TYh

[natemeister]

Chris,

The starter sounds like mine did.  Not sure why, but I think we're just used to that damn thing starting right up and not hearing it for an extended time.  Think about what you want to do, but I'd really like to see if pulling the fuel line from the pump does the trick like with mine.  Looking at the manual the fuel line goes uphill to what's called the injection pipe.

I'm still reading up on the fuel system, but have no clue why it's behaving like it is.  I do NOT think anything electrical is wrong and no codes, but I can't be 100% sure. 

Nate

[maxtog]

Video  https://flic.kr/p/wf7TYh

Eeew, seems/sounds/looks like something else.  But I would *still* take out the battery and clean and tighten the connections, and charge it... before doing anything else.

[B.D.F.]

The paper taped to the exhaust was simply brilliant IMO and it does indeed prove the engine is turning. Outstanding piece of diagnostic work (cheap, easy, fast and yields absolute proof of a break- point in diagnosis).

So it looks like the starting system is intact and functioning properly, and those voltages are quite good, indicating plenty of current supplied to the starter, which is clearly turning at <about> the right cranking speed.  That leaves three things IMO: Mechanical damage (engine), which is unlikely, Fuel starvation (most likely) or lack of spark (also unlikely because on the C-14 each cylinder has its own individual ignition system and it is highly unlikely that all four failed simultaneously).

If it were me, I would pull the fuel tank and check the fuel pump for both delivery as well as correct pressure. The tank is <fairly> easy to remove and can be done with most of the fairing intact; even the main side fairings can be left on the bike but spread slightly at the top to let the tank slide through (Down Boys!). I usually wrap the tank with a bath towel to do this so it does not get scratched on the way by the fairings.

Once the tank is out, you can test the pump pretty easily just by applying 12 volts to it and seeing if it delivers any fuel, and if so, if it is enough fuel. To test the fuel pump pressure, you will need a pressure gauge.

Again, great job with the tape and paper and the very best of luck with the bike. I think in the end it will be something quite direct and fairly simple as opposed to anything particularly complicated or anything involving multiple failures.

Brian

It's spinning the engine, watch the video.  You can hear the fuel pump run when I turn on the key.  An interesting bit of info is the really strange sound it makes when the starter is engaged.

Could the solenoid not be engaging and still have the engine blow out the exhaust and move the paper?

Battery shows 12.75 volts and drops to 11.xx when the starter is running. I suppose I could throw the trickle charger on it.  I have left the key on many times, I am a forgetful fool.


Video
https://flic.kr/p/wf7TYh

[PlaynInPeoria]

What's weird is my friend Nate (Natemeister here) just had virtually the same problem.  He yanked his tank and saw fuel pump and bolted ir back together and it's fine. 3 days later, mine does the same f'in thing. We did just ride to Colorado not long ago, but he parked his when he got home and I put 250 more miles or so.

How can there be a no start scenario with a failure that causes a code? Low fuel pressure etc. Weird.

[PlaynInPeoria]

The sumbitch started. I went to crank on it with the battery fully charged, same deal. Then I held the throttle WFO and it sound more like it wanted to run. I kept cranking on it and resting it and it kept sounding like it wanted to start. Finally it did, woo hoo!!!!!!

No clue what the actual problem was. Bad gas with grit and clogged injectors?  Running it had big suction and kept it going but going from a dead stop wouldnt? Hell, I don't know but my baby runs!!

[PlaynInPeoria]

I definitely want to say thanks to all who offered advice. I don't hang here much but I recognized all that pitched in and knew I was getting good advice.

Again, thanks!

[jimmymac]

Clean the screen.

[B.D.F.]

Interesting. It is possible that the ECU has a 'flood mode' where it withholds fuel until certain conditions have been met and opening the throttle allowed the ECU to sense that those conditions had indeed been met. It may also be possible that the fuel system was air bound and just opening the throttle held the injectors open longer so it simple primed the system again. Had the bike been run extremely low on fuel perhaps recently?

As I remember, I had something similar happen way back when (like in '07); the bike started, coughed and died. After that it would not start with repeated cranking and opening the throttle finally got it to start. But I had an FI error showing on the screen, again as I remember....?

By the way, there is nothing in the system that monitors fuel pressure or flow and so low to no [fuel flow and / or flue pressure] will never generate an ECU warning of any kind. The bike just will not start.

Anyway, glad to hear it worked out but I would keep an eye open for a bit to make sure all is well for the next 20, 30 starts and rides or so.

Brian

The sumbitch started. I went to crank on it with the battery fully charged, same deal. Then I held the throttle WFO and it sound more like it wanted to run. I kept cranking on it and resting it and it kept sounding like it wanted to start. Finally it did, woo hoo!!!!!!

No clue what the actual problem was. Bad gas with grit and clogged injectors?  Running it had big suction and kept it going but going from a dead stop wouldnt? Hell, I don't know but my baby runs!!

[PlaynInPeoria]

Interesting. It is possible that the ECU has a 'flood mode' where it withholds fuel until certain conditions have been met and opening the throttle allowed the ECU to sense that those conditions had indeed been met. It may also be possible that the fuel system was air bound and just opening the throttle held the injectors open longer so it simple primed the system again. Had the bike been run extremely low on fuel perhaps recently?

By the way, there is nothing in the system that monitors fuel pressure or flow and so low to no [fuel flow and / or flue pressure] will never generate an ECU warning of any kind. The bike just will not start.

I did run out of gas last Monday but have run a couple tanks through it since.    I gassed up at 194 miles and put 80 or so on the tank and parked it.

Amazing that the bike doesn't have fuel pressure sensors and associated diagnostics and events.

[natemeister]

Interesting we both had the same amount of fuel in the bike when they sat and then didn't start days later.  We both had about 90 miles on what started as a full tank.  I'm guessing a bit more than half.  Given the "S" shape of the tank the fuel level could be getting near the level of the fuel injection pipe.

With mine I pulled the tank up and disconnected the fuel line.  Put a hose on the fuel pump nipple and watched lots of fuel pump into a nice clear fish bowl for the 3 seconds at keyon.  I hit my starter button just to see if it would continue as it did and then mine decided it wanted to act like starting.  After I hooked the fuel line back up I tried it and it started after a couple more start button hits.  I hate not knowing the root cause.  Mine sat for about 11 days after the Colorado trip with no starts.  I plan to put some Techron through it after I pull the fuel pump and clean the screen just to be sure.

On theory a buddy at work has is possible contamination that kept the fuel injector (a.k.a. nozzle) "open" and allowed air to enter the injector holes after shutting it off.  If the fuel tank level is low enough it would be below the fuel injection pipe where air could get trapped.  The fuel in the injection pipe & fuel line from the pump would be drawn down to a level that would equalize with the tank.  In some engines the threshold for injection is high enough that the air will compress, but not be high enough to trip the injector threshold thus not delivering fuel.  Of course this would have to be across all 4 cylinders/injectors as the bike would at least sound like something was trying to fire if any fuel was attempted to be injected.  No in my case.

It's the best theory I have to date.  I welcome any fuel injection experts out there that might have some ideas.  It's over for the moment, but given it happened it is likely to happen again.