Another Rostra problem..I'm about to throw in the towel.

[CDN-GTR]

Bike 2010 C14
Control Pad 250-3592
Brake Relay came with Murphs kit

Instructions followed:
For initial understanding of install and dip switches
1) http://www.murphskits.com/catalog/docs/Rostra%20install.htm


For actuator and mounting location and cable hookup as well as brake circuit hookup to the front right easier to get to
2) http://www.murphskits.com/catalog/docs/Rostra%20Cruise%20Control%20to%20my%202011%20GTR1400.pdf

Used to verify wiring once nothing was working as well as used for dip switch setting as #11 is different
3) http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/image/155084862

Power is pulled from the Accessory pin in left front bundle


Issues and I have many:

1) the red wire from the actuator with the 4amp fuse, with the fuse pulled shows 12V on either end of where the fuse presses in.... I'm thinking this is wrong. With the fuse in, the brake relay clicks. Is this hooked up correct?

2a) with the bike in the "ON" position the control pad shows the green lights (yea it has power and it should its directly connected for the lights), When I push the "ON"  button on the controller the "ON" light illuminates but very very very very dull.
2b) If I probe the back of the 4 pin connector to a ground, when I hit the green wire the "ON" light goes very bright.
2c) For some reason the green wire and the red wire always has 12v going to them Even with 4pin connector disconnected.
2d) testing all the wires as they go into the back of the pad (pulled the pad apart to probe where the pins solder to the board). With the bike powered on and probing to my volt meter to ground. No voltage on the black, blue, yellow or brown. 12v to grey, white, red and green.

I'm thinking my switch is frigged.

3) How the heck do you get into diagnostic mode I see  many instructions, all different and can't understand which one is correct.
I think what I'm suppose to do is, with the R/A button held I turn the bike on then once the bike is powered on and while still holding the "R/A" button I press the "ON" button. This gets the RED led in the actuator to light.
On page 20 of the Rostra guide it says power on the bike, then push and hold the "R/A" button then press the "ON" button it says that the Diagnostic LED should be off.
I always see mine "ON" when doing either of these.
Heck I can get the LED to go on just by pushing the On button.
Again I'm thinking my switch is screwed.

I'll start with this info and go from here.

[Deziner]

I don't know anything about Rosta cruise but what you're describing are classic signs of a bad ground. I would clean all grounds associated with the cruise unit. And while you're at it, clean all of the battery grounds too. Assuming that the grounds are making good contact has caused more vehicle headaches than you can imagine.

Just my .02

[B.D.F.]

I am not really following your various voltage measurements; for example, both fused lines should read a nominal 12+ at all points on both wires, on both sides of the fuses. ??

As already mentioned, it does sound like you have a bad ground and that alone could and would cause many different problems. Where on the bike are you grounding the Rostra?

I believe you are looking at the wrong LED for diagnostic mode: the diagnostic mode LED is located above the DIP switches on the actuator, not the switch. It sounds like you may be looking for diagnostic mode to show up on the switch? If so, that is not correct- take the cover off the DIP switches and there is a very small LED above the switch lines that will illuminate when you get into diagnostic mode.

You mention the brake relay 'clicks' and it seems to be whenever you put power to the positive line with the four amp fuse in it....? If so, that is not correct; the brake relay should only click when you use either brake system (front or rear) to activate the brake light. The relay should click when the brake light is turned on and it should click again when the brake lights is turned off.

Brian

Bike 2010 C14
Control Pad 250-3592
Brake Relay came with Murphs kit

Instructions followed:
For initial understanding of install and dip switches
1) http://www.murphskits.com/catalog/docs/Rostra%20install.htm


For actuator and mounting location and cable hookup as well as brake circuit hookup to the front right easier to get to
2) http://www.murphskits.com/catalog/docs/Rostra%20Cruise%20Control%20to%20my%202011%20GTR1400.pdf

Used to verify wiring once nothing was working as well as used for dip switch setting as #11 is different
3) http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/image/155084862

Power is pulled from the Accessory pin in left front bundle


Issues and I have many:

1) the red wire from the actuator with the 4amp fuse, with the fuse pulled shows 12V on either end of where the fuse presses in.... I'm thinking this is wrong. With the fuse in, the brake relay clicks. Is this hooked up correct?

2a) with the bike in the "ON" position the control pad shows the green lights (yea it has power and it should its directly connected for the lights), When I push the "ON"  button on the controller the "ON" light illuminates but very very very very dull.
2b) If I probe the back of the 4 pin connector to a ground, when I hit the green wire the "ON" light goes very bright.
2c) For some reason the green wire and the red wire always has 12v going to them Even with 4pin connector disconnected.
2d) testing all the wires as they go into the back of the pad (pulled the pad apart to probe where the pins solder to the board). With the bike powered on and probing to my volt meter to ground. No voltage on the black, blue, yellow or brown. 12v to grey, white, red and green.

I'm thinking my switch is frigged.

3) How the heck do you get into diagnostic mode I see  many instructions, all different and can't understand which one is correct.
I think what I'm suppose to do is, with the R/A button held I turn the bike on then once the bike is powered on and while still holding the "R/A" button I press the "ON" button. This gets the RED led in the actuator to light.
On page 20 of the Rostra guide it says power on the bike, then push and hold the "R/A" button then press the "ON" button it says that the Diagnostic LED should be off.
I always see mine "ON" when doing either of these.
Heck I can get the LED to go on just by pushing the On button.
Again I'm thinking my switch is screwed.

I'll start with this info and go from here.

[CDN-GTR]

Brian, I'll try to clear up your first question:

"I am not really following your various voltage measurements; for example, both fused lines should read a nominal 12+ at all points on both wires, on both sides of the fuses. ??"

>> the 4amp fuse that is in the red wire going to the brake light relay (new relay that came in the kit) I have it wired according to the schematic diagram, I'm using the brake light wiring in the right front cowel. This 4amp red wire if i have the bike "ON" and the fuse pulled shows 12v from both sets of prongs the 4amp fuse goes into so there is power coming from? One side of this fuse comes from the switch, the other side of the fuse comes the brake light. I'd have thought that with the fuse pulled only one side of the prongs would show power.

[CDN-GTR]

Brian answer to your second question:

"I believe you are looking at the wrong LED for diagnostic mode: the diagnostic mode LED is located above the DIP switches on the actuator, not the switch. It sounds like you may be looking for diagnostic mode to show up on the switch? If so, that is not correct- take the cover off the DIP switches and there is a very small LED above the switch lines that will illuminate when you get into diagnostic mode."

>>> yes, I was looking at the LED on the actuator, the LED is beside the #1DIP switch. Just not sure if it's to be "ON" or "OFF" when in diagnostic mode Rostra Manual says off everything else I read say "ON" (I think).

[CDN-GTR]

Brian one more clarification:
RE: "You mention the brake relay 'clicks' and it seems to be whenever you put power to the positive line with the four amp fuse in it....? If so, that is not correct; the brake relay should only click when you use either brake system (front or rear) to activate the brake light. The relay should click when the brake light is turned on and it should click again when the brake lights is turned off."

>>>>what I mean is with the bike in the "ON" position if I apply the front or rear brake the relay clicks like it should. Not when I turn the bike "ON" or press the "ON" button on the switch. The relay seems to click like it is suppose to.

[CDN-GTR]

For a ground I have grouped the blue and black wire from the switch to the black wire from the cruise unit and have them plugged in with a bullet connector to the ground accessory wire in the left front cowl wiring bundle. Ground side is a male bullet connector on the bike.

[just gone]

Things are clearing up slowly, from what I see so far I've corrected the original post in Blue.

Bike 2010 C14
Control Pad 250-3592
Brake Relay came with Murphs kit

Instructions followed:
For initial understanding of install and dip switches
1) http://www.murphskits.com/catalog/docs/Rostra%20install.htm


For actuator and mounting location and cable hookup as well as brake circuit hookup to the front right easier to get to
2) http://www.murphskits.com/catalog/docs/Rostra%20Cruise%20Control%20to%20my%202011%20GTR1400.pdf

Used to verify wiring once nothing was working as well as used for dip switch setting as #11 is different
3) http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/image/155084862

Power is pulled from the Accessory pin in left front bundle


Issues and I have many:

1) the red wire from the actuatorCONTROL SWITCH with the 4amp fuse, with the fuse pulled shows 12V on either end of where the fuse presses in.... I'm thinking this is wrong. With the fuse in, the brake relay clicks with actuation of either brake. Is this hooked up correct?

2a) with the bike in the "ON" position the control pad shows the green lights (yea it has power and it should its directly connected for the lights), When I push the "ON"  button on the controller the "ON" light illuminates but very very very very dull.
2b) If I probe the back of the 4 pin connector to a ground, when I hit the green wire the "ON" light goes very bright.
2c) For some reason the green wire and the red wire always has 12v going to them Even with 4pin connector disconnected.
2d) testing all the wires as they go into the back of the pad (pulled the pad apart to probe where the pins solder to the board). With the bike powered on and probing to my volt meter to ground. No voltage on the black, blue, yellow or brown. 12v to grey, white, red and green.

I'm thinking my switch is frigged.

3) How the heck do you get into diagnostic mode I see  many instructions, all different and can't understand which one is correct.
I think what I'm suppose to do is, with the R/A button held I turn the bike on then once the bike is powered on and while still holding the "R/A" button I press the "ON" button. This gets the RED led in the actuator to light.
On page 20 of the Rostra guide it says power on the bike, then push and hold the "R/A" button then press the "ON" button it says that the Diagnostic LED should be off.
I always see mine "ON" when doing either of these.
Heck I can get the LED to go on just by pushing the On button.
Again I'm thinking my switch is screwed.

I'll start with this info and go from here.

I have a question going back to your original statement that you've since partially cleared up concerning the brake switch relay.

(1)....   With the fuse in, the brake relay clicks.

The brake relay should click regardless of the 4amp fuse being in position or not.
We'll assume it does until you say different.
 Isn't it amazing how just using words can be so important for something like this? Adds even more frustration to what can be a very frustrating experience to begin with. Have patience, it will be worth it if you don't throw in the towel.

More: Not that important until you find the problem that causes 12v+ to be at both terminals of the empty 4A fuse holder, but when that's fixed make sure to note that the NSS wire is disconnected from the clutch switch before trying the Diagnostic mode (as per Brian's original instructions).

As of late, it's at this point that a phone call takes place and we are all spared the step by step typing and diagnostic conversations. So I hope we get the low down on how this all sorts out.

[B.D.F.]

OK, responding to posts (reply number) 3 through 6 here.

1) OK, I understand what you are saying about nominal 12 volts on both sides of the fuse with the fuse removed but I do not know if that is a valid test of any kind. At this point, let's just ignore this one and concentrate on getting the unit working.

2) Yes, that is the diagnostic LED. Normally that LED is off and will only illuminate when you are in diagnostic mode. It will illuminate steadily after entering (Easy Boys!) diagnostic mode, then it will show different reactions to the various inputs of the bike. As Marty mentioned, you have to leave the NSS disconnected from the bike when using diagnostic mode. Note also that diagnostic mode seems 'funny' on these units and has not proven predictable in my experience.

3) OK, when the bike is powered up, the relay clicks when you engage  and disengage the brake light; that is fine and we can move on from that question.

4) Ground: you have pulled ground from the bullet connector connected to the black / yellow stripe wire, excellent. That is the accessory ground for the entire bike and should be quite robust and reliable. No issue there.

As far as following the schematic, I cannot help you there as it is not my schematic and I am not familiar with it.

I assume you do not have an 'engaged' light installed in this application; this is unfortunate as it is an excellent diagnostic tool both during but especially after installation. Of course it is not required in any way but I find mine to be quite useful.

In the end (Boys!), there are only three things the Rostra requires to function: power of course, ground on the brake sense line of the actuator (violet wire from the Rostra actuator) and a stream of pulses supplied by the VSS. If you have these three things, the unit will engage (but may not disengage). To disengage the unit, that same violet wire from the actuator must sense 12 volts, which it will through the relay when the brakes are applied.

Brian

[CDN-GTR]

Things are clearing up slowly, from what I see so far I've corrected the original post in Blue.

I have a question going back to your original statement that you've since partially cleared up concerning the brake switch relay.
 The brake relay should click regardless of the 4amp fuse being in position or not.
We'll assume it does until you say different.
 Isn't it amazing how just using words can be so important for something like this? Adds even more frustration to what can be a very frustrating experience to begin with. Have patience, it will be worth it if you don't throw in the towel.

More: Not that important until you find the problem that causes 12v+ to be at both terminals of the empty 4A fuse holder, but when that's fixed make sure to note that the NSS wire is disconnected from the clutch switch before trying the Diagnostic mode (as per Brian's original instructions).

As of late, it's at this point that a phone call takes place and we are all spared the step by step typing and diagnostic conversations. So I hope we get the low down on how this all sorts out.

Went out to check that 12v on both sides of the 4amp fuse tonight.
I lied, but after screwing around with it for 18 hours I thought I remember both sides being live it isn't, only live side is the bike side when the bike is powered on.
Sorry about that.
 

[CDN-GTR]

OK, responding to posts (reply number) 3 through 6 here.

1) OK, I understand what you are saying about nominal 12 volts on both sides of the fuse with the fuse removed but I do not know if that is a valid test of any kind. At this point, let's just ignore this one and concentrate on getting the unit working.

2) Yes, that is the diagnostic LED. Normally that LED is off and will only illuminate when you are in diagnostic mode. It will illuminate steadily after entering (Easy Boys!) diagnostic mode, then it will show different reactions to the various inputs of the bike. As Marty mentioned, you have to leave the NSS disconnected from the bike when using diagnostic mode. Note also that diagnostic mode seems 'funny' on these units and has not proven predictable in my experience.

3) OK, when the bike is powered up, the relay clicks when you engage  and disengage the brake light; that is fine and we can move on from that question.

4) Ground: you have pulled ground from the bullet connector connected to the black / yellow stripe wire, excellent. That is the accessory ground for the entire bike and should be quite robust and reliable. No issue there.

As far as following the schematic, I cannot help you there as it is not my schematic and I am not familiar with it.

I assume you do not have an 'engaged' light installed in this application; this is unfortunate as it is an excellent diagnostic tool both during but especially after installation. Of course it is not required in any way but I find mine to be quite useful.

In the end (Boys!), there are only three things the Rostra requires to function: power of course, ground on the brake sense line of the actuator (violet wire from the Rostra actuator) and a stream of pulses supplied by the VSS. If you have these three things, the unit will engage (but may not disengage). To disengage the unit, that same violet wire from the actuator must sense 12 volts, which it will through the relay when the brakes are applied.

Brian

Thanks Brian for you in depth info.
Ok, I'll update some more.

1) this is a red Harring only the bike side of the 4 amp fuse is live, but I blew the fuse during initial install and have put a 5amp vuse in as I can't locate a 4. Could this cause low power/amp to the controller and be my problem?

I have the engaged light but not wired up yet as I need to get another relay so the Orange wire from the Cruise Unit and the Violet from the Control unit are cut off and taped over.

I have redone all the power and ground wires tonight still plugging into the accessory plugs under left front faring. No difference in anything.

As I mention the weirdest thing is with the bike powered ON and the cruise switch turned to ON the ON led on the cruise control unit that is handle bar mounted is very very very dull. But once I probe with a test light to ground the green wire on the conector between the Cruise Unit and the Control pad the ON LED goes bright.

Again thinking it's the switch that has gone bad, or could it be the 5amp fuse I replace the 4 with.

[B.D.F.]

OK, this is important info. (like 'don't cross the streams!'): seeing as a fuse was overloaded, this leads me to a couple of thoughts:

1) Something was wrong when the unit was installed. No idea what but fuses should never open under normal use.
2) Because the fuse opened, it means too much current was flowing through that circuit. Fuses are there for safety reasons, such as not melting things and setting nearby objects on fire (seriously), not to prevent electrical damage. So it is entirely possible that the Rostra actuator, the Rostra switch or both have been damaged by the original problem.

The only thing I can think of to do at this point is to swap parts and see if that corrects the situation. The switch is the cheapest one to swap of course, and it may well be the problem (there is circuitry in the switch). That said, it is the actuator that is supplying the ground path to the switch so if the switch cannot push enough  current down through the actuator, and jumping the brown wire provides that ground path, logic would indicate it was the actuator that is the problem.

Did you find the actual problem that actually caused the fuse to pop in the first place? It would be best to absolutely know that the original problem has been eliminated before proceeding.

Brian

Thanks Brian for you in depth info.
Ok, I'll update some more.

1) this is a red Harring only the bike side of the 4 amp fuse is live, but I blew the fuse during initial install and have put a 5amp vuse in as I can't locate a 4. Could this cause low power/amp to the controller and be my problem?

I have the engaged light but not wired up yet as I need to get another relay so the Orange wire from the Cruise Unit and the Violet from the Control unit are cut off and taped over.

I have redone all the power and ground wires tonight still plugging into the accessory plugs under left front faring. No difference in anything.

As I mention the weirdest thing is with the bike powered ON and the cruise switch turned to ON the ON led on the cruise control unit that is handle bar mounted is very very very dull. But once I probe with a test light to ground the green wire on the conector between the Cruise Unit and the Control pad the ON LED goes bright.

Again thinking it's the switch that has gone bad, or could it be the 5amp fuse I replace the 4 with.

[CDN-GTR]

Well I know I crossed the streams in the initial wiring. I had a miss understanding between the supplied relay and the relay at the back of the bike and wired that up wrong. I know I have it all sorted out now and verified my connections with all types of instruction documents. Testing of the switch tells me it's likely the culprit so I ordered a new switch that comes with a relay to activate the engaged light. If this doesn't fix the issue the cruise unit will go back to Rostra to get checked.

Thanks for the help so far.

Dan

OK, this is important info. (like 'don't cross the streams!'): seeing as a fuse was overloaded, this leads me to a couple of thoughts:

1) Something was wrong when the unit was installed. No idea what but fuses should never open under normal use.
2) Because the fuse opened, it means too much current was flowing through that circuit. Fuses are there for safety reasons, such as not melting things and setting nearby objects on fire (seriously), not to prevent electrical damage. So it is entirely possible that the Rostra actuator, the Rostra switch or both have been damaged by the original problem.

The only thing I can think of to do at this point is to swap parts and see if that corrects the situation. The switch is the cheapest one to swap of course, and it may well be the problem (there is circuitry in the switch). That said, it is the actuator that is supplying the ground path to the switch so if the switch cannot push enough  current down through the actuator, and jumping the brown wire provides that ground path, logic would indicate it was the actuator that is the problem.

Did you find the actual problem that actually caused the fuse to pop in the first place? It would be best to absolutely know that the original problem has been eliminated before proceeding.

Brian

[CDN-GTR]

Guess it's time I update this. The Rostra works great now. My problem was all due to a bad switch. I installed the new switch about two weeks after the last post, and 97% of the problems were fixed.
Last issues was that clutch pull wouldn't disengage cruise, but turn signal activation did. Red with Green wire on one one side of the connection in left fairing is turn signal,but on the other side of the harness red with green  is the clutch. Easy enough to fix.

Although it took 4 different sets of insulation instructions to get the cruise working, it was well worth it on my first super slab trip.

[just gone]

....it was well worth it on my first super slab trip.

I thought you might get there if you stuck with it. Congrat's! 

[B.D.F.]

Glad to hear you got to the bottom of the problem(s) and worked through them.

As far as the switch, there are two different kinds and one of them just does not work IMO: the Klixon switch is problematic from the start and quickly corrodes and decays. It is my experience that they just cannot be made waterproof. In a couple of months they look like this:


The other type uses resistance pads and can easily be waterproofed by coating both sides of the PC board with grease.



This type of switch works well. Unfortunately, I cannot remember the part numbers of either one (DOH!).

Brian

Guess it's time I update this. The Rostra works great now. My problem was all due to a bad switch. I installed the new switch about two weeks after the last post, and 97% of the problems were fixed.
Last issues was that clutch pull wouldn't disengage cruise, but turn signal activation did. Red with Green wire on one one side of the connection in left fairing is turn signal,but on the other side of the harness red with green  is the clutch. Easy enough to fix.

Although it took 4 different sets of insulation instructions to get the cruise working, it was well worth it on my first super slab trip.

[B.D.F.]

Yep, my e-mail is just under the icon of me in the top / left of any / all of my postings. Just click on the icon and it will open a window to send me an e-mail directly.

It is bdfelice[one] [at] gmail.com  Replace the words one with the numeral one and the at with the @ symbol.

I have absolutely no problem with anyone contacting me privately and of course I will keep any such contacts private. That said, if you have any kind of general question or thought, please consider posting it to the forum so that others may see it and any responses it generates. I have learned a huge amount from this forum and encourage everyone to make any information or open questions public so that such information can be shared with everyone. But again, of course I am not speaking about anything even remotely regarding any personal or private issue. (not trying to air anyone's personal information, just spread and share general info. that may apply to motorcycles and C-14's specifically)

Brian

Brian - Can you let me know your email so I can ask a question? I see your sig where you say your PM is deactivated. Tks ...

[B.D.F.]

Not my place to decide but I guess I would put in C-14 accessories and a moderator will move it as he / she sees fit.

And by the way, things like this are exactly what I meant by being of interest to others- I am looking to see what others have to say about this myself.

Brian

Brian - It's regarding gluing / welding plastics together, as in gluing a piece of plastic to a Givi top case. Where should I post the question? (so I don't muck up this thread ... will delete my posts in here once you respond)