brakes 101 (spongy feeling - yes, they've been bled!)

[martin_14]

hi everybody,
many times (99%, I feel) we come here with a problem, post a few questions, get valuable info, and then don't feed back everybody with the outcome. So this is my attempt to improve that.
I took the bike to my very trusted dealer, who has a good mechanic, but he wasn't there. So the "2nd in command" bled the brakes. This is what I mentioned on the title of this thread. I don't know what he did, but that day I drove home and the behaviour was more consistent, but the next day it was back to square one: first lever pull would take quite a lot of dead stroke for the pads to start biting. Letting go and pulling again rapidly would move the biting point to where it used to be, with no dead stroke on the lever. Waiting 5 seconds and trying again was enough to bring back the "dead stroke".
Discs are at 4.65 mm, pads are rather new.
So I took the bike again this week (I had to get other stuff done) and this time the good mechanic was there, so he power bled the brakes twice and the master cylinder. He also pulled the callipers out and cleaned and moved the pistons in and out to let the sealings slide and reposition correctly. He also added a tiny amount of brake fluid.
Result: bike brakes like new! I didn't have the chance to do hard braking because of traffic, but I'm more than satisfied now, and he barely charged me 20 minutes of his time.

[JS_racer]

thanks for the update   

[B.D.F.]

Good to hear it worked out for you Martin. The C-14 really does have excellent brakes and it is a shame when they are not working 100% just because they are not set up quite correctly.

I believe the key in what you mechanic did was [power bleed the brakes, twice]. As I have said, this bike is a cast- iron bi!@h to bleed the brakes, and nothing short of forcing fluid, often a lot of fluid, through the system, will allow them to be rock hard and stay that way (Do I need to say it? !!).

Brian

hi everybody,
many times (99%, I feel) we come here with a problem, post a few questions, get valuable info, and then don't feed back everybody with the outcome. So this is my attempt to improve that.
I took the bike to my very trusted dealer, who has a good mechanic, but he wasn't there. So the "2nd in command" bled the brakes. This is what I mentioned on the title of this thread. I don't know what he did, but that day I drove home and the behaviour was more consistent, but the next day it was back to square one: first lever pull would take quite a lot of dead stroke for the pads to start biting. Letting go and pulling again rapidly would move the biting point to where it used to be, with no dead stroke on the lever. Waiting 5 seconds and trying again was enough to bring back the "dead stroke".
Discs are at 4.65 mm, pads are rather new.
So I took the bike again this week (I had to get other stuff done) and this time the good mechanic was there, so he power bled the brakes twice and the master cylinder. He also pulled the callipers out and cleaned and moved the pistons in and out to let the sealings slide and reposition correctly. He also added a tiny amount of brake fluid.
Result: bike brakes like new! I didn't have the chance to do hard braking because of traffic, but I'm more than satisfied now, and he barely charged me 20 minutes of his time.

[VirginiaJim]

Easy boys!

[PlaynInPeoria]

3 things I have done on bikes to improve the brakes:

1) Speed Bleeders.  Helped every bike I ever used them on, haven't installed them on the C14, haven't needed them. I dc'ed the linked brakes, so bleeding may be simplified.  Best mod ever.  Ok, 55W HID and a stupid loud horn were nice also.

2) EBC HH pads.  HH is a standard and is not specific to EBC, Galfer has them, etc.   Always better feel.

3) Last time I put tires on before the Colorado trip, I used a ton of Windex to clean the calipers.  I can't believe the difference that made.  Man, they got awesome, so powerful and easy to use and controllable. just amazing.

YMMV.

[martin_14]

3 things I have done on bikes to improve the brakes:

1) Speed Bleeders.  Helped every bike I ever used them on, haven't installed them on the C14, haven't needed them. I dc'ed the linked brakes, so bleeding may be simplified.  Best mod ever.  Ok, 55W HID and a stupid loud horn were nice also.

2) EBC HH pads.  HH is a standard and is not specific to EBC, Galfer has them, etc.   Always better feel.

3) Last time I put tires on before the Colorado trip, I used a ton of Windex to clean the calipers.  I can't believe the difference that made.  Man, they got awesome, so powerful and easy to use and controllable. just amazing.

YMMV.

Interesting, except that I don't understand much 
Could you explain how the "speed bleeders" helped? what did you achieve with it besides simplifying the bleeding procedure?
and how did the "Windex" help? Why Windex and not something else?

[B.D.F.]

I believe all brake pads available for the C-14 are HH types, and I know all the stock pads for the bike are HH.

Brian

3 things I have done on bikes to improve the brakes:

<snip>

2) EBC HH pads.  HH is a standard and is not specific to EBC, Galfer has them, etc.   Always better feel.

<snip>

YMMV.

[PlaynInPeoria]

Interesting, except that I don't understand much 
Could you explain how the "speed bleeders" helped? what did you achieved with it besides simplifying the bleeding procedure?
and how did the "Windex" help? Why Windex and not something else?

Bleeding is notoriously hard and when done poorly, you have air in the lines, which is one of the most common causes of spongy brakes.   SB's make it way easier to get all the air out of the lines.  I've put them on 6 bikes?  Every one had massive improvement in feel, not to mention they are very simple to install and use.   What used to be an exercise in frustration is now a 5 minute easy thing. Also, when I mount them, I bleed ALL the old fluid out and replace with Motul brake fluid, so fresh fluid and well-bled brakes and very clean calipers is gonna make a big difference in braking feel.

Windex is my low end cleaner.   I use Simple Green or Purple Power, WD40, contact cleaner etc, but Windex is the least damaging/intrusive cleaner that is just a step of from water alone.  You're pretty much insured that you won't damage anything with Windex, which is not something you can say about contact cleaner!  WD40 is really good for removing oil/gunk/grease and cleaning rims and chains.

[martin_14]

thanks man!

[maxtog]

Windex is my low end cleaner.   I use Simple Green or Purple Power, WD40, contact cleaner etc, but Windex is the least damaging/intrusive cleaner that is just a step of from water alone.  You're pretty much insured that you won't damage anything with Windex

Do NOT use Windex on clear plastic (unless they now make it with NO AMMONIA), it will cause it to turn white or cloudy over time.  This includes dash covers, gauges, monitor/TV screens, glasses, and such.  Anything that contains ammonia is a no-no for clear plastic.  Learned that the hard way.  Better is a dilute solution of isopropyl alcohol.