Pulling flies and adding Juice Box Pro

[Deathwish]

Recently added a Two Bros can and decided to go ahead and order the Juice Box Pro for my bike. Arrived yesterday and I figured while I'm working on the bike this weekend, I might just go ahead and pull the flies and remove my TRE (which may be for sale soon). My new Juice Box came with a map for the Two Brothers slip-on, but not with flies removed. The Juice Box will also read PC V maps, and I downloaded a map for flies out and a Muzzy slip-on, but was wondering if someone might actually have a map for flies out and Two Brothers slip-on that they'd be willing to share? If so it would be greatly appreciated. 

[Deathwish]

...or if anyone knows a source where I could purchase a map for a Two Brothers slip-on with flies out, please let me know. At some point I will get the bike dyno-tuned, but that's down the road a ways and may be after purchasing a full exhaust system. Thanks much!

[Gearhead82]

I think most slip-ons are going to have very similar flow characteristics.  They'll all a straight-thru design with very little restriction so the map you found with the muzzy slip-on should work equally as well with the Two Bros slip-on.

[Gearhead82]

You can also call Fuel Moto.  They've got lots of different maps for the C-14.  I think they're usually reserved for people who order their PCV through them, but they may be willing to sell you just a map or help you out in some way or another.

http://www.fuelmotousa.com/

[Deathwish]

Thanks GH. I was figuring the Muzzy map would be close, but not sure how close. I read on FuelMoto's website where the maps were for their customers only, but perhaps I'll hit them up and see if they'd sell me one. Never hurts to ask, right? 

[kb9ndl]

I have a 2009 Concours .Bought it used with a Two Brothers Slip on already installed.I am considering gertting a Juice box pro.Would like to get opinions  as to if its worth it?Specifically is there any gain to power or performance with a Juice Box?Cannot seem to find a discussion on here about it.

[gPink]

If the only thing that has changed is the slipon muffler you don't need a piggyback fuel controller.

Welcome to the forum.

[Flat-spot]

If you want the most significant improvement, leave the flies in, go here...
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/
and click on "Concours 14 ECU flash"

[stevewfl]

If you want the most significant improvement, leave the flies in, go here...
https://sites.google.com/site/shoodabenengineering/
and click on "Concours 14 ECU flash"

^^^ that times infinity   

[B.D.F.]

I am not sure just what you are after but if it is maximum performance, I believe a PC5, coupled with the autotune module, is the best way to go. This system provides a 'closed loop' system on your vehicle, under the conditions (temperature, humidity, state of engine tune, etc.)that you have and will provide a tuning solution specific to your situation. This system will provide most performance if the 'flies are removed.

It does not look like the Juice Box supports any type of auto tune module or system.

To use the auto tune module, you will need to add an O2 (oxygen) sensor to your exhaust system; the auto tune module then reads the oxygen left in the exhaust in 'real time' and can then be used to create a custom map(s). You can also use the system to create, for example, a lean map for best- fuel economy cruising that will not only perform well but be safe as you will know what the actual mixture is as you ride the bike. Not the cheapest or easiest way to alter the bike's performance and state of tune but the best in my opinion.

Brian

I have a 2009 Concours .Bought it used with a Two Brothers Slip on already installed.I am considering gertting a Juice box pro.Would like to get opinions  as to if its worth it?Specifically is there any gain to power or performance with a Juice Box?Cannot seem to find a discussion on here about it.

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

PCV with autotune is not the best way to go.  Just because it worked in 2008 doesn't mean it's the best way to go today.  You guys are going to have to realise there's so much more to tuning than just affecting the TPS map for fueling. Flashing is the only comprehensive way to go about this. Trust me I've completely studied this from the inside, and even the PCV fuel maps have only about 25% of the data points that can be reached by flashing. What about timing... what about secondary control... what about decelleration properties? How are you going to get all around tuning by pulling flies and correcting fuel in an incomplete map? Please expand your minds... this man is looking for an already configured map, not to build his own, and and even if he was going to build his own fuel map piggybacks are still nowhere near as tuneable as a well built flash.
             
Steve

   I'd also like to add about autotuning. Autotuning is a great tool, but it doesn't suffer fools, You have to be absolutely sure no addition 02 is getting in from anywhere, and sensor placement is critical. The PAIR valve system needs to be disabled and capped, and you also need to determine the proper time offset from the time the cylinder combusts the mixture until it gets to the sensor.  You also need to set the target a/f ratio's, which means you already know about tuning a/f going in. The pcv default setting are power settings... do you need that at 5% throttle, just tooling around ? I'm telling y'all, forget what you knew to be the best, an well designed flash is the most comprehensive tuning you'll get.

[B.D.F.]

Yes, this man asked about maps.... not re-flashing.

I would encourage anyone looking to do your own research and think about how everything works before buying anything. Also, look at who is promoting what and how that person / group profits from the various products and procedures available.

Also, note what most vehicles that have been manufacturered in the last decade use and you will find the great majority of vehicles use closed- loop systems based around O2 sensors. Even Kawasaki uses O2 sensors on a closed- loop system everywhere outside the US and Canada and that is emissions based, not 'best practices' based.

I do not sell anything having to do with mixture or timing modification on any vehicle and therefore have no interest in promoting any particular device. My interest in this area is strictly performance and efficiency (vehicle efficiency) based, and always with the consideration of not damaging an engine due to too aggressive or an incorrect timing or fuel map (detonation.... C-14's do not have 'knock' sensors in them and therefore need a reasonably conservative tuning schedule.

I am happy to discuss this with anyone other than a product vendor, publicly or privately. I have used Megasquirt products in the past with excellent success but do not sell / represent them / get any compensation in any way. Besides that, I do not recommend them as a viable replacement for a simple modifications to an existing, factory based fuel injection system.

There is a huge amount of information available, from basic mixture concepts to full engine management, readily available on the 'Net. One of the best sites I know of is the Megasquirt site; this company sells complete and excellent engine management systems; while I would not suggest the casual user purchase one of their engine controller (and ECU coupled with many sensors and extraneous outputs), as a source for both tuning information as well as conceptual information- this is what I suggest anyone interested in how engine controls work review. By the way, the C-14 uses, as do most motorcycles, the fuel control method known as Alpha-N. Virtually all autos use speed- density so just skip past that information as it will not apply.

Brian

PCV with autotune is not the best way to go.  Just because it worked in 2008 doesn't mean it's the best way to go today.  You guys are going to have to realise there's so much more to tuning than just affecting the TPS map for fueling. Flashing is the only comprehensive way to go about this. Trust me I've completely studied this from the inside, and even the PCV fuel maps have only about 25% of the data points that can be reached by flashing. What about timing... what about secondary control... what about decelleration properties? How are you going to get all around tuning by pulling flies and correcting fuel in an incomplete map? Please expand your minds... this man is looking for an already configured map, not to build his own, and and even if he was going to build his own fuel map piggybacks are still nowhere near as tuneable as a well built flash.
             
Steve

   I'd also like to add about autotuning. Autotuning is a great tool, but it doesn't suffer fools, You have to be absolutely sure no addition 02 is getting in from anywhere, and sensor placement is critical. The PAIR valve system needs to be disabled and capped, and you also need to determine the proper time offset from the time the cylinder combusts the mixture until it gets to the sensor.  You also need to set the target a/f ratio's, which means you already know about tuning a/f going in. The pcv default setting are power settings... do you need that at 5% throttle, just tooling around ? I'm telling y'all, forget what you knew to be the best, an well designed flash is the most comprehensive tuning you'll get.

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

OK, so here we go again. Maybe the man asked about maps because he's not familiar with reflashing. and the eCU uses 2 fuel tables as base, not just TPS based.

  you can dismiss / downplay all you like, but the fact is untill you've ridden on a well tuned flash, you're speaking in concept, not reality.

  Do I sell flashes? Yes,  I do. Please don't pay any attention to anything I say... why don't you look at the reviews on the net, here and elsewhere. See what your peers are saying. Steve

 

[Eupher]

FWIW, thanks to both Brian and Steve for keeping it civil. Clearly, they disagree on the subject, but they're putting their individual points out there and the rest of us can research and decide.

My .02 zlotys.

[B.D.F.]

Hey, I always keep it civil; read through the above posts and see who uses the words "fool", as well as phrases such as 'you must learn', etc. Not me- I am not jamming my opinions down anyone's throat, and it is not now nor has it ever been my place to tell others what they must or must not do.

Actually, I like discussing this stuff- the mechanics as well as the chemistry of a running internal engine are absolutely fascinating to me and always have been.

And again, I welcome all non- vendor discussion, questions, thoughts and ideas on this topic (and quite a few others but that does not apply here). But I prefer to talk about facts rather than anecdotal stories or reports; it is like when someone asks about a windshield or saddle and people post about how they have a Brand X saddle and it is the best thing ever. How does that person know? What is he / she comparing it with? What I try to do is to report on what I find about a product / service / device, compare it with something similar and leave it at that; going on to say it is the very best [whatever] the world has ever known entirely negates the user's report in my opinion. For example, as a long- distance rider, I have made a lot of posts and comments on saddles, cushions and so forth for long time comfort (48 hours in the saddle without 30 minutes off the bike anywhere in that time cycle) and yet I never, ever, say 'This is the best saddle', or 'this is the best cushion', etc. I simply explain what I have found, what works for me, and to the best of my knowledge, why this is so.

But again, I encourage everyone to do his / her own research rather than following the herd bleating about what is best, worst, good or bad. Remember, 1,000 years ago, everyone KNEW the Earth was flat. It took a fair amount of study and thinking and a huge amount of courage to stand up and say that it was, in fact, not flat but round. Fortunately, internal combustion engine behavior is actually very well understood with the concepts both proven and very well documented; find a place that deals with these concepts in a rational, reasonable way for the lay person and pass along a tremendous amount of information.

Brian

FWIW, thanks to both Brian and Steve for keeping it civil. Clearly, they disagree on the subject, but they're putting their individual points out there and the rest of us can research and decide.

My .02 zlotys.

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

And again, I welcome all non- vendor discussion, questions, thoughts and ideas on this topic

 

  An interesting method of dismissing my posts, Brian. Of course anyone with a memory or ability to use the "search" function will find that we've had these discussions before I was a vendor, and apparently neither of us has changed our opinion since then.

  That said, since you and I had our thought - provoking discourses on tuning the c-14 in the past, I've delved heavily into the topic. I've done experiments with flies in, flies out, different exhausts, dyno work, built my own pipe, bought all the equipment to flash, a kds system, and thrown myself at the topic. Of course I also come at this with decades of professional engine building / tuning experience. To date, I have flashed my own ECU 73 different times seeking knowledge, and have flashed 90 c-14 ECU's in total. 

   So yes, you can choose to dismiss my opinion because I'm a "vendor" now, but then that would be akin to someone dismissing your understanding of electronics because you now sell the fuel gauge bypass or the Kipass bypass harnesses you developed. They are  good, well built and needed products from a professional. My flash is  also a good, well built and needed product from a professional.  Apparently you are of the mindset on tuning that a professional with knowledge should be dismissed, which leaves you only conversing with who?... those who don't know any better, and are more likely to believe your side of the debate? Sorry, you can't slip that one by me today. I'm putting in the work, to dismiss my opinion because I'm a vendor is, well, kinda transparent.
  Steve

[B.D.F.]

Now on this, we agree: I encourage everyone to read back as far as possible on this subject. All the data is there.

As far as not discussing this topic with you, it is merely because you do not discuss, you state and badger. For example: your statement earlier in this thread "Trust me I've completely studied this from the inside, and even the PCV fuel maps have only about 25% of the data points that can be reached by flashing." is simply incorrect, either it is a mistake or it is a lie. The entire range of fuel delivery, from 0% throttle to 100% throttle can be  mapped by using either a PC III or PC V. As it is not possible to reach more than 100% of the range of anything, your product that covers a 'wider range' simply cannot cover a wider range. But any astute reader will have picked this up, just as they will  have picked up the fact that you used a third party to purchase one (or more) of my devices so I would not know it was you. Add deception to your statements and badgering as a typical M.O..

This is America, where you are free to sell whatever goods or services you care to. You may even..... embellish, or outright misrepresent such goods or services; while 'truth in advertising' is a law, it is unlikely anyone would bother to prosecute you due to the magnitude of the damage. At the same time, I am free to speak about what I wish but I always do my very best to do that is a logical, reasonable manner, backed up by science, mechanics and reality. For example, I do not and never have claimed that my low fuel warning eliminators do anything to increase fuel economy for two reasons: 1) it is not correct and makes no sense and 2) it would be a blatant lie. So as always, I encourage EVERYONE to look at the facts, such as they are available, that go with any product, including my own of course.

I will leave with this parting quote which I believe to be apropos: “Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.”
- George Bernard Shaw

Brian

  An interesting method of dismissing my posts, Brian. Of course anyone with a memory or ability to use the "search" function will find that we've had these discussions before I was a vendor, and apparently neither of us has changed our opinion since then.

<snip>


  Steve

[Steve in Sunny Fla]

Now on this, we agree: I encourage everyone to read back as far as possible on this subject. All the data is there.

As far as not discussing this topic with you, it is merely because you do not discuss, you state and badger. For example: your statement earlier in this thread "Trust me I've completely studied this from the inside, and even the PCV fuel maps have only about 25% of the data points that can be reached by flashing." is simply incorrect, either it is a mistake or it is a lie. The entire range of fuel delivery, from 0% throttle to 100% throttle can be  mapped by using either a PC III or PC V. As it is not possible to reach more than 100% of the range of anything, your product that covers a 'wider range' simply cannot cover a wider range. But any astute reader will have picked this up, just as they will  have picked up the fact that you used a third party to purchase one (or more) of my devices so I would not know it was you. Add deception to your statements and badgering as a typical M.O..

  "deception and badgering"... Sweet

  i'm glad you posted that Brian, because if fully supports my previous post. The quote above is fully incorrect, and borne of ignorance. PCIII and PCV tuning is purely based on TPS / RPM Alpha-N tables as you previously and correctly noted. My flash has many more data points on that table, (more tps and rpm cells) and also I have another fuel map entirely - A MAP sensor based map, that of course covers all decelerations and loads that are not addressed by a TPS based map. After all, on a TPS map once the throttle is closed, there is no fueling correction to be done. Decels require mapping fuel on ZERO throttle, which cannot be done on a TPS based map. Add those two maps, and yes, probably 4X the data points available as far as fuel tuning is concerned.

        That said, for you to say that my statements are either "incorrect, a mistake or a lie"  and that "deception is my typical mo"  really does no more than underscore your ignorance of the subject, and of me personally. Steve

[Flat-spot]

Oh yeah, you "always keep it civil".  Use a Shaw quote to call a man a pig?   

[B.D.F.]

Sorry, it is the best 'call a man a pig' quote that I know of. Do you have a better one?

 

Brian

Oh yeah, you "always keep it civil".  Use a Shaw quote to call a man a pig?