New [projector] headlights retrofit

[B.D.F.]

Not to make a long thing out of this but POV (persistence of vision) is actually a brain function and pretty standard amongst the members of a species. So most all of us humans (probably all primates actually) will respond about equally to the 'flickering' or perceived motion (because that is really what it is).

A lot depends on how the light itself is turned on and off too. An incandescent lamp flickers very mildly at 60 Hz because the filament just cannot heat up / cool down that quickly so the change in light output is really very small. Fluorescent lights have a greater change in the same 1/60th of a second but again it is not anywhere near 100% off because, well, they fluoresce. :-)  A cathode ray tube as in older type TVs and monitors is also tricky for two reasons- the screen continues to glow so does not get anywhere near dark even when not being actively lit (scanned)  but also because the entire screen does not change intensity at once but rather in a pattern from top to bottom.

LEDs on the other hand are virtually instant in turning on and off (at least within the contest of human perception). So if they pulse at, say, 60 Hz it will be far more noticeable to the human than most other types of light used. There are two other variables with LEDs- they do not have to be merely turned on and off, they can change in intensity at a given frequency; for example, an LED could run at 100% and then 50% output in the 60 Hz cycle and we would absolutely pick that up although the center vision would be more forgiving. So it would attract our attention only in the peripheral vision but when viewed directly it would <appear> to glow steadily. The other variable is the on / off time pulses; they do not have to be 50% on and 50% off- they could be on for 5% of the cycle 100% intensity and then be completely off for 95% of the cycle. That would really attract our attention but would also be annoying which is how emergency vehicle LEDs operate- attention getting and annoying.

I do not know how it would work out but I think given the full on and full off nature of LEDs, we would pick up the 'blinking' at fairly high rates- maybe even close to 100 Hz.  The only way to really know would be to tinker around with it, or find some data from others who have tinkered already. I am sure some groups have done this testing but I don't know if they would freely share the data.

There is a company, Proton I think or something similar, which produces LED strips that do just what we are talking about. At a rally with about 100 motorcycles, there were two that I kept 'having' to look at and they were the same two wearing those LEDs- amber up front and red in back. When I looked at them as closely as I wished, I simply could not detect any change in intensity or flashing. But when caught in my peripheral vision I found myself turning to look at them without ever realizing why I was doing it. Just a combination of evolution and clever EE's (which were the result of tremendous evolution  ) combining to 'force' a response. I found it fascinating and would have bought a set just to play around and find out how fast / how intense they were but they were too intense in price. I think they are something like $140 / set (of two) and I was only about $65 worth of fascinated with them so I did not buy them but I would love to run a set past an oscilloscope one time to plot the (approximate) light output.

Brian

*I* notice that (and can't stand it), *YOU* notice that, but apparently most people don't notice 30Hz (from my personal, interactive experience/questioning).

I am guessing to trigger the "masses", it has to be significantly slower.  20 Hz will probably do it.  I am sure there are writeups on that stuff on the web somewhere...

[maxtog]

There is a company, Proton I think or something similar, which produces LED strips that do just what we are talking about.

http://www.lights.skenedesign.com/PB_Features.shtml

[B.D.F.]

The kindly postman arrived today with a very special package (easy boys!) for me. I gots me a pair of projectors, HIDs and lenses.

Decided to go with Acura TL projectors. I have not seen the beam in person yet but the word is that the beam is wider than anything Hella makes, at least as bright and these particular projectors have a lower shield inside them to block some of the light that would normally be cast immediately in front of the vehicle -a very nice touch. I also bought an aftermarket pair of clear lenses as the OEMs have a Fresnel lens (I got the original lenses as well)- the clear lenses cast a sharper beam with just a little more intensity and a sharper cut- off line. Some people prefer Fresnel lenses because they do soften the light output slightly but I will take all the lumens I can get.

I decided to go with Philips D2S HID lamps or burners but will use a genuine Chinese ballast and igniter to drive them. The reason is that the Chinese stuff is functional but a little bit less precise; I have OEM optics and bulbs and that is what makes the headlight actually produce and control light. If the ballasts are a little bit off they will not affect the quality of the light output. Of course all the Chinese stuff is a lot less expensive but I am trying for the best light possible, not the least expensive although I am still trying to get a decent value.

The TL projectors are quite large and have the solenoids mounted under the projector so they are not only large but a rather odd shape. The very quick initial look shows that they will fit into the C-14 housing but the housing may need to be relieved (read: a hole hacked through the body and then patched for increased internal space) to clear that solenoid. It also looks like the projectors <may> just mount on an adapter plate to the original reflector housing mounting and adjusting point. In the end it really won't be any better than the usual 'hack and epoxy' method of mounting but it will align and mount easier with much less risk that the projector is misaligned just enough so that adjustment cannot align them.

Will take some photos and post them later.

Brian

[B.D.F.]

6 Sept. 2012

OK, the TL projectors are not going to make it. They fit, sort of, but that huge solenoid on the bottom gets really close to the headlight housing. I could notch the housing to accept them but there is a vent exactly where the notch would have to go. I could move the vent perhaps but altogether it is too much work for too little return to make it worthwhile.

Onto the next projector which is on the way and going to be from an FX 35 / 45 series Infinity. The projectors will be OEM (rather than the replicas now available) with clear lenses; the light output is excellent, quite wide and the high beam seems to be spectacular. Even better than the TL's and anything Hella offers. Most bi-xenon projectors yield a very high in the middle, low at the edges high beam and that is not really what is desirable on a motorcycle. The problem is that bikes lean when going through a corner and that wide, flat beam disappears to the side without illuminating anything on the road ahead. A better fix would be to tip the projector for high beams and while that is certainly doable it is too much work for this project.

I will update this thread when the new (the new, new) projectors get here.

Brian

[maxtog]

Onto the next projector which is on the way and going to be from an FX 35 / 45 series Infinity. The projectors will be OEM (rather than the replicas now available) with clear lenses; the light output is excellent, quite wide and the high beam seems to be spectacular. Even better than the TL's and anything Hella offers.

If they are like the G37's, then of course they are excellent and going to be MUCH better than the Honda ones

(As I mentioned before, I own a G37S.  Now if you get the ones *I* have, they would also move and track the steering   At least you are one step closer!)

[B.D.F.]

The FX projectors are almost the same; the -37 series has a modified bowl and a Fresnel lens compared with the -35 series. I do not know why the bowl was modified or how it affects the beam pattern but the light from a clear lens is a bit brighter and a bit sharper at the cut- off line. Bottom line is that they (the FX 35 and G 37 series) are physically interchangeable and very similar.

I also looked at Murano projectors- outstanding light producers (intensity, spread and control) but the solenoid is again on the bottom and placed even further toward the rear than the TL which would make them even harder, or perhaps not likely at all, to install in a C-14 housing.

Brian

If they are like the G37's, then of course they are excellent and going to be MUCH better than the Honda ones

(As I mentioned before, I own a G37S.  Now if you get the ones *I* have, they would also move and track the steering   At least you are one step closer!)

[martin_14]

If they are like the G37's, then of course they are excellent and going to be MUCH better than the Honda ones

(As I mentioned before, I own a G37S.  Now if you get the ones *I* have, they would also move and track the steering   At least you are one step closer!)

If Brian gets the ones *you* have, then you won't be able to drive your G37S at night anymore, would you?

[maxtog]

If Brian gets the ones *you" have, then you won't be able to drive your G37S at night anymore, would you?

[B.D.F.]

I am thinking of mounting mine upside down so the other people on the road with me can enjoy them too....

 

But seriously, they do seem to be nice projectors. A little OFFTOPIC but for better or worse the Europeans, especially German mfg.'s, have been way ahead of American mfg's in terms of decent vehicle lighting in the last couple of decades, perhaps even before that (the H4 was in Europe long before being introduced to the US). The Japanese are relatively new to high- performance lighting and I have to say that they seem to have really taken over the lead in that area. It took quite a bit to turn my head away from Hella and seriously look at Japanese products but it does seem that the high end Japanese auto manufacturers really have improved on German technology. It was, after all, the Germans who pioneered the whole concept and execution of HIDs small enough to use in a vehicle.

C'mon UPS man (not until Tues. at the earliest).

By the way, I have been dealing with The Retrofit Source and they have been outstanding regarding service, help and overall customer satisfaction. It may cost a few dollars to deal with them vs. someplace like Ebay (and then again, maybe not) but they really are very well versed in lighting and more than helpful.

Brian

If Brian gets the ones *you" have, then you won't be able to drive your G37S at night anymore, would you?

[maxtog]

The Japanese are relatively new to high- performance lighting and I have to say that they seem to have really taken over the lead in that area. It took quite a bit to turn my head away from Hella and seriously look at Japanese products but it does seem that the high end Japanese auto manufacturers really have improved on German technology.

I remember the first night I drove the G37, I was just SHOCKED at the headlights.  The quality of the light, the pattern, the distribution, the focus... it was amazing.... still is.  When I ride in a "normal" car now, I can't believe the difference.  The idea of having something like those on a Concours is really fascinating.

Damn, now you will call me "Spock" again.

[ZG]

Damn, now you will call me "Spock" again.

 

[Mister Tee]

So, BDF, I can see that you are trying to fit a projector HID system inside the reflector assembly behind the clear lens.  Have you thought about getting rid of the clear lens and doing a fiberglass layup to replace it, so you can mount the projectors flush with the front of the fairing or perhaps sticking out a little bit?  That should give you plenty of room for fitment plus if you did it right and painted it, it would blend in better with the rest of the bike.

[B.D.F.]

OEM projectors really cannot be exposed- they are not weatherproof, and the lens is very sensitive to any scratches or sandblasting from road grit. All modern headlights are meant to be mounted inside weatherproof housings- I am not really using the OEM projectors any differently than they were originally used in the auto so they still need a shell.

There is really a lot of front- to- back room in a C-14 headlight housing and the TL projectors fit, at least under the lens. The problem is that to bring the base of the projector back to nearly  the center of the headlight housing opening, so the lamp can rest in the center and the original lamp seal will work, would require cutting a piece from the back of the headlight housing for the projector to back up enough. So the problem isn't in the front at all, it is in the back of the housing and projector- specifically the solenoid under the TL projectors. They are known for that problem. and often difficult to retrofit into other vehicles just because of it.

The next set of projectors (FX 35) are considerably smaller and especially lower (top to bottom) as the solenoid is not under the projector.

Brian

So, BDF, I can see that you are trying to fit a projector HID system inside the reflector assembly behind the clear lens.  Have you thought about getting rid of the clear lens and doing a fiberglass layup to replace it, so you can mount the projectors flush with the front of the fairing or perhaps sticking out a little bit?  That should give you plenty of room for fitment plus if you did it right and painted it, it would blend in better with the rest of the bike.

[B.D.F.]

Update 15 Sep 2012:

So I sent the TL projectors back and bought FX 35 Infinity projectors. They are smaller, more compact, do not have that solenoid projection and produce an excellent low beam, and a very wide and fairly high high beam. These projectors are OEM (there are replicas on the market) with aftermarket clear lenses.

Funny thing is that I got two right hand projectors, and upon first glance, it looked like the projector mounts <might> be adaptable to the C-14 housing directly. I actually called the supplier and asked if I could have a left projector and they did procure one for me but in the end it was really not that close to actually mounting so I decided to just cut the mounting ears off both projectors, at which point it did not matter that I had two rights (it is the mounting ears that make it a left or right, the projectors themselves are identical on both sides).

This is a pair of FX projectors, one stock and one with the mounting ears cut off; both shown next to a stock reflector bucket for comparison:


The backs of the original reflectors have mounting tabs on them, and in the tabs are square mounting nuts that allow the bracket itself to rotate somewhat; this is what 'gives' when adjusting the headlight. I would like to preserve those brackets and the original headlight adjustments. This is how one side bracket mounts in the headlight housing:


The projector body fits inside those brackets so it should be fairly straightforward to make standoffs, mount them to the bracket and the other end to small tabs that also mount to the screws holding the projector housing together. This is the fit between the projector and bracket:


The next problem is to make arrangements to mount a lamp in the projector housing once the housing is in the bike, and to somehow seal the whole thing and make it waterproof. This is what I came up with- The original looks like this, an H4 lamp and the seal:


And the seal seals on the H4 lamp body like this:


And HID lamp and connector is very different and looks like this:


With a D4S lamp in the connector it looks like this:


If the neck of the seal ring is cut off cleanly from the seal body, it leaves a nicely radiused hole a bit smaller than the D4S connector:


Now the HID connector can be pushed into the modified seal. It takes some force but not too much- certainly not more than the average Concours owner squeezing into size 48 jeans.... :


This is the stock bulb (H4) in the seal; with the seal in place in the housing (I did not have an H4 connector available):


The sealing ring seals to the housing on the outside, and to the bulb on the inside. My setup is different in sequence but ends up about the same- the seal seals to the housing on the outside exactly the same but the inside seals onto the connector and the connector seals onto the lamp. The whole combination looks like this:


As long as the projector ends up somewhere near the back of the housing, and somewhere near the middle (not critical either way because the seal effectively has a bellows built into it) then everything should seal up and assemble OK. The installation sequence will be different though; the original is the bulb is installed, and then the seal, and finally the connector is pushed on. On the HID modified setup, the bulb still goes in first but the seal and connector install together as a unit. I do not believe this will present any problem.

The next step is to conjure up some standoffs, mount them to the original reflector brackets, and then some small tabs, which will fasten to both the standoffs and the projectors. At that point I will have to fire up both types of lights in the headlight housing (original H4 and reflector as well as HID and projectors) and make sure the projectors light output aligns with the original reflectors, or at least very close.

Brian

[okxd45]

Wow what a project!  Looking forward to some pics of how well your bike lights up the night!  Did you take pics for a before and after?

[maxtog]

Great pics and description!  Love following this.

[Son of Pappy]

It appears you have given this project a bit more thought than OUR last one

[gPink]

Pics are nice but video would be better.

[B.D.F.]

Yeah, and not so many big wrenches and glue needed....  and with just a little luck, these headlights won't leak anything on the ground.    But then again, I have Mr. Elkhoof watching over the entire thing and I can't help but think that is going to help.

Brian

It appears you have given this project a bit more thought than OUR last one

[B.D.F.]

No but I will- I can put an H4 lamp into a reflector bowl and take photos anytime and them compare them wtih the projector's output.

Brian

Wow what a project!  Looking forward to some pics of how well your bike lights up the night!  Did you take pics for a before and after?