nailing hairpins on the C14

[martin_14]

I mentioned before how a German factory test driver taught me to use the rear brake in order to alleviate the strong sensitivity of the C14 to fore/aft weight shift due to gas inputs.
Well, this weekend I drove from Switzerland to Italy through the famous San Bernardino Pass and had the chance to practice, and I think I nailed it. I could all but eliminate abrut reactions from the bike while gunning it at the exit of the curves (a Ferrari 575 in front and a Nissan GTR behind kept the game high). The weight of the bike is still there (there's so much you can do with physics), but the rear brake trick to tame the chassis while going on the gas really works. It requires practice, but it's a very rewarding excercise.
I like the San Bernardino Pass because it seems like the people who paved this old Roman road looked at the shortest way from one point to the next one and just filled it with curves. Some of them are trouly unnecessary, but the result is that you have a lot of run off areas in case you cook it. The bike won't survive, but if you go ATGATT it will only mean a few broken bones. Compared to most Alpine passes, that's an improvement.

[Conrad]

Trail braking is great once you get the technique down.   

[chap]

Man I sure wish we had roads like that. i am on the Canadian Praries. Flat Straight.

[Mister Tee]

I trail brake, but with the front, not the rear.  More so on the gsxr, less so on the C14.

[C1xRider]

I mentioned before how a German factory test driver taught me to use the rear brake in order to alleviate the strong sensitivity of the C14 to fore/aft weight shift due to gas inputs.
Well, this weekend I drove from Switzerland to Italy through the famous San Bernardino Pass and had the chance to practice, and I think I nailed it. I could all but eliminate abrut reactions from the bike while gunning it at the exit of the curves (a Ferrari 575 in front and a Nissan GTR behind kept the game high). The weight of the bike is still there (there's so much you can do with physics), but the rear brake trick to tame the chassis while going on the gas really works. It requires practice, but it's a very rewarding excercise.
I like the San Bernardino Pass because it seems like the people who paved this old Roman road looked at the shortest way from one point to the next one and just filled it with curves. Some of them are trouly unnecessary, but the result is that you have a lot of run off areas in case you cook it. The bike won't survive, but if you go ATGATT it will only mean a few broken bones. Compared to most Alpine passes, that's an improvement.

That looks like an awesome road.  I rented a BMW 318i and took E43/13 south through there (from Frankfurt) when I was visiting many years ago.  If I had known about the San Bernardino Pass road, I would have taken that as well.

I would be interested to hear how your trail braking tactics work with a newer GTR1400, with the linked brakes.  I find mine tends to cause the nose to dive just a little plus a quick little pull to the right on the bars, which is unsettling to me when running hot through a corner. 

I wonder what the guy behind you though when your brake lights kept coming on as you were powering out of the corner (unless he knew about trail braking).

[martin_14]

I would be interested to hear how your trail braking tactics work with a newer GTR1400, with the linked brakes.  I find mine tends to cause the nose to dive just a little plus a quick little pull to the right on the bars, which is unsettling to me when running hot through a corner. 

Sorry, but mine is an '08, so no linked brakes. I should have put that somewhere in the post, as Jim advised...   

[C1xRider]

Sorry, but mine is an '08, so no linked brakes. I should have put that somewhere in the post, as Jim advised...   

I already knew that.  I was just commenting that I wonder how you would do with linked brakes.  If you get the chance to demo a newer one, let us know. 

[jjsC6]

I already knew that.  I was just commenting that I wonder how you would do with linked brakes.  If you get the chance to demo a newer one, let us know. 

I've trail braked on several bikes with linked brakes.  First of all, if you are using the rear pedal only you are getting enough rear bias not to matter.  Second, if you are braking so hard that it is creating problems you are braking too hard going into a curve.  Trail braking on the street should be fairly mild braking.  If you are into the corner too hot then you have other problems and trail braking is the wrong tool for the job.

Further, I would be very careful recommending this to anyone unless you know they are an above average rider (meaning ABOVE AVERAGE - not just thinking they are).  Rear braking into a curve is a very good way to low side if you are not a very good rider already in the twisties.

[maxtog]

I already knew that.  I was just commenting that I wonder how you would do with linked brakes.  If you get the chance to demo a newer one, let us know. 

Keep in mind that there are different settings for the linking on the 2nd gen.  Strong and medium (or perhaps medium and weak).  In the lower setting, you are certainly getting more rear than front.  If you are just using it for trail braking, I don't think it would be a problem (although I really don't know, since I am nowhere near that good).

[VirginiaJim]

Sorry, but mine is an '08, so no linked brakes. I should have put that somewhere in the post, as Jim advised...   

 

[stewart]

The last trackday I did I learn't about trail braking using the front brake only. I was a little confused until it was explained and I practiced it.

Basically the idea is to hang onto a little front brake as you enter a corner. This keeps the front suspension compressed slightly which addresses some stability, and more importantly shortens the wheelbase making for quicker turn in. At least that's how I remember it.

[martin_14]

The last trackday I did I learn't about trail braking using the front brake only. I was a little confused until it was explained and I practiced it.

Basically the idea is to hang onto a little front brake as you enter a corner. This keeps the front suspension compressed slightly which addresses some stability, and more importantly shortens the wheelbase making for quicker turn in. At least that's how I remember it.

You've got me there 

Maybe I'm not describing trail braking. Well, I'm not sure what I'm describing, in the sense that I don't know what's the name for it. The guy who taught me this was a colleague hauling a$$ and scraping pegs in a K1600GT while I was following him with my bike. We swaped bikes and he just took off from me. When we stopped again he told me that the C14 is way more sporty but the harsh reaction when going from braking to gas was too unsettling, and told me to use the rear brake to soften things down.

Basically, I was talking about the exit of the curve, not the entry. When coming into the curve I brake hard (both front and rear) before leaning and gradually release both brakes. About the apex, front brake is completely released, but I keep a hair of pressure on the rear, sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on how tight the curve is and therefore how low my speed is. The lower the speed, the more rear brake I need to control how the power is unleashed when I get on the gas and upsets the chassis.

Due to the duolever arrangements, the K-line of BMWs don't have this issue, which makes them nicer in this regard.

[stewart]

On exit...really? I've never had an issue on exit, just rachet (or roll) on the gas.

[Cuda]

I'm not a track racer but I have a old friend that is , he also teaches , he  said he never uses the rear brake.

[martin_14]

...he  said he never uses the rear brake.

I could post just a    and be done with it, but I have many reasons to think that your friend is wrong, chief among which, the rear brake is there for quite a few reasons. We all know that the perfect braking is just when the rear tire is about to leave the ground. But that is a theoretical maneuver and a full stop is just one of the things a brake system is there for.

I don't know your friend, but I know racers and the engineers behind them in a few categories, Superbike being my favorite. I trust them and I learnt from them to rely in all the means available to have a blast on a bike. One of the first things I learnt was that, to go fast, you have to brake a lot. If the rear brake was of no use, one could save the weight and cost. Yet they keep putting them on bikes and not for marketing.

Back to the rear brake application on the exit of a hairpin just while gunning it, my suggestion is to get to a road with some hairpins and try the technique out. If it doesn't do anything for you, ditch what I said. It works for me and clearly makes me a faster rider. Even better, I feel more confident attacking tight curves or doing U-turns. Every now and then I read the CDA board and so many drops happen at low speed (it happened to me with my previous bike) that I thought I needed to improve something. This did the trick.

[Conrad]

I'm not a track racer but I have a old friend that is , he also teaches , he  said he never uses the rear brake.

Lend your old friend your Connie and have him do some low speed parking lot maneuvers, throw in some sand, maybe a lil gravel and an incline or two. No rear brake use allowed.

Do you have drop protection installed on your bike?

I agree with Martin. They don't put rear brakes on bikes just because they can.

[gPink]

I thought rear brakes were a holdover from HD.

[Conrad]

I thought rear brakes were a holdover from HD.

Well there is that, after so many went over the handle bars using those pesky front brakes and all.

[stewart]

I use my rear brake all the time, no argument there.

My query was using on the exit of a corner as you accelerate out once your past the apex. This is new to me and I guess I just have to read a little bit more to understand it.

[basmntdweller]

I did a track day with Sportbike Track Time last month. One of the first things they told us in the novice group was to forget that you have a rear brake, you dont need or want it on the track. I am guessing that they may teach use of rear brake later in Intermediate or Advanced classes but in Novice, dont use it!
I was perfectly happy not using it as I only barely use it on the street, just enough to keep it in muscle memory in case I ever want to use it. I can't imagine what it would do on corner exit under power.

Matt