Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: Boomer343 on December 23, 2011, 01:41:06 PM
-
So here is a comparison showing a new OE bearing and a solid bushing. The bolts have grooves worn in them from the rollers and need to be replaced if new bearings are put in. The solid bushings can reuse the bolts and are a better setup than the bearings. New seals (available only from Kawasaki) and a few hours of fun and yoiu are off to the races.
-
Remind us again, where do you get the bushings?
Thanks.
-
http://www.lm-tarbell.com/ (http://www.lm-tarbell.com/)
They are one supplier and I know TCro has used them. I had a machinest I know make these up for me.
You will need 3 of 20mmx27mmx16mm and 2 of 20mmx27mmx32mm ID/OD/Length
It made a big difference on my bike to get everything back in alignment and operating smoothly. BTW the bearings had seen regular greasing, probably more than was necessary.
www.ametric.com (http://www.ametric.com) is another supplier and they have a web based store you can order from.
-
Yep that's who I used; and could not be more pleased with the results..... No harm can come from a firm rear end! ::)
What I did was to polish the shoulder bolts by chucking them by their threads in a drill press and dress/polish them till they fit the bushings to my liking.
-
May I ask is it better to use "oil impregnated' bronze sleeves or even nylon or Teflon? The reason I ask is because that tarbell website states minimum $20 order and the ametric.com site does not list anything bronze in our sizes except for Oil Impregnated, Metric.
-
The ones I got were the oil impregnated bronze ones. I got the part #'s from Tony.
-
May I ask is it better to use "oil impregnated' bronze sleeves or even nylon or Teflon? The reason I ask is because that tarbell website states minimum $20 order and the ametric.com site does not list anything bronze in our sizes except for Oil Impregnated, Metric.
I used the oil impregnated bronze; my thinking was that if I failed to grease them religiously it was still not a big sin.... And for the bushing that you need you will be spending slightly more than 20 bucks plus shipping.
-
Tony and Jim, my 06 only has 3800 miles on it in all of my farkling I forgot to pull the rear bushings and check them, Is it a pain can you give me some pointers and at about what interval do I need to do the bushing upgrade plsrs. Thx Steve
-
Tony and Jim, my 06 only has 3800 miles on it in all of my farkling I forgot to pull the rear bushings and check them, Is it a pain can you give me some pointers and at about what interval do I need to do the bushing upgrade plsrs. Thx Steve
It's likely that many 86 bikes still roll on OE needle bearings but that it not to say that an 06 with only 3,8XX miles might not benefit from the install of bushings over bearings.... It is my opinion that needle bearings are a poor choice in this application as this is a non rotational load and puts a lot of stress on just a few rollers which in turn will cause flat spotting and/or indenting of the non-hardened shoulder bolts. I believe that I could tell the difference in my bike when I did the exchange at perhaps 10,??? miles. Other than placing a board under the wheel which can be used to remove load or apply leverage removing the bolts and parts here is really straight forward and simple. Only the bolt that holds the rocker into the frame can be a tight one. The old bearings can be hammered out with a deep socket and the new bushings can be carefully hammered into place or pressed with nothing more than a bench vise and oversize flat washers.
-
. . . needle bearings are a poor choice in this application as this is a non rotational load . . . the non-hardened shoulder bolts. . . .
Devil's advocate here.
I agree the swing arm motion is non rotational, but the little needles go through more than one rotation for the full swing arm motion. So as far as the needle bearings are concerned. the motion is rotational.
I agree that the non-hardened bolts are a problem, but they're just as non-hardened sitting in the bushings as in the needle bearings.
-
Devil's advocate here.
I agree the swing arm motion is non rotational, but the little needles go through more than one rotation for the full swing arm motion. So as far as the needle bearings are concerned. the motion is rotational.
I agree that the non-hardened bolts are a problem, but they're just as non-hardened sitting in the bushings as in the needle bearings.
My belief is that their movement is more cyclic or back and forth than fully rotational... But I could be wrong!
The bushings will provide a full cradle of support verse the needles which only provide tiny lines of support and this is why the bolts will come out indented from absorbing impact.
-
Here's a couple of shots of the swingarm and you can see the wear into it. This is on one side only of the mount points. I simply cleaned and filled the grooves with epoxy then filed smooth. I can tell you the rear end handles the road much better now that the forces are handled in a linear way.
-
T.cro, Boomer George thx for the update I will check mine out to be on the safe side. thx Steve
-
Jim, or Tony can you give the part numbers for everything I will need plsr, I will call them next week. thats the co. in the previous message?
-
May as well post them! 8)
Wayne
Jim, or Tony can you give the part numbers for everything I will need plsr, I will call them next week. thats the co. in the previous message?
-
Self-Lubricating Sintered Bronze Bearings/Bushings
3 @ 20 mm ID x 27 mm OD x 16 mm Length
2 @ 20 mm ID x 27 mm OD x 32 mm Length
WWW.LM-TARBELL.COM (http://WWW.LM-TARBELL.COM)
PATRICK FALLON
413-525-4166
Expect to pay roughly 36.00 for the bushings plus shipping.
-
thx boss appreciate it, regards Steve
-
I am confused. The Ron Ayers fiche calls for 5 20/27-15 and 1 20/27/31 or something like that. Anyway 6 total bearings. Are not all the bearings being replaced??? I guess I can understand the slight difference in length, but am confused with the total number.
Can you explain more?
Thanks
-
I am confused. The Ron Ayers fiche calls for 5 20/27-15 and 1 20/27/31 or something like that. Anyway 6 total bearings. Are not all the bearings being replaced??? I guess I can understand the slight difference in length, but am confused with the total number.
Can you explain more?
Thanks
Self-Lubricating Sintered Bronze Bearings/Bushings
3 @ 20 mm ID x 27 mm OD x 16 mm Length
2 @ 20 mm ID x 27 mm OD x 32 mm Length
WWW.LM-TARBELL.COM (http://WWW.LM-TARBELL.COM)
PATRICK FALLON
413-525-4166
Expect to pay roughly 36.00 for the bushings plus shipping.
I see the same thing. Yes, Inquiring minds want to know!
-
One of the locations in the rocker will have 2 short 15 mm needle bearing and in its place you will use one 32 mm long (longer) bushing for better support.
It should also be noted that the one long bearing called for by Kawasaki was but 26 mm long to which we are replacing it with a 32 mm long bushing; this adds another 6 mm (23 %) of critical load bearing support.
-
OK. Thank you.
-
One of the locations in the rocker will have 2 short bearing and in its place you will use one long (longer) bearing for better support.
Is that true for the other 2 @ 20 mm ID x 27 mm OD x 32 mm Length?
-
A 16 mm will be used in the ends of the dog bones where they attach to the swingarm and where the shock attaches to the rocker for a total of 3 bushings.
A 32 mm will be used where the rocker attaches to the frame, and the other will be installed in the rocker where the dog bones attaches for a total of 2 bushings.
-
What's next, swing arm bushings, steering head bushings?
-
What's next, swing arm bushings, steering head bushings?
Silly Wabbit.... Trix are for Kids!
-
I am looking at the part identified as Arm-Suspension,Uni Trak, #39007. I see that it uses two bearings in the center hole. My question is does this have a boss inside that the bearings mate against? Also, what would be the best way to remove the bearings?
-
I am looking at the part identified as Arm-Suspension,Uni Trak, #39007. I see that it uses two bearings in the center hole. My question is does this have a boss inside that the bearings mate against? Also, what would be the best way to remove the bearings?
It's been a while since I had mine apart but I don't recall anything in the bottom hole of the linkage along the lines of a boss or spacer or anything between the two sets of bearings. As far as best way to remove the bearringa.....my low-tech garage called for the use of a socket just the right size to fit inside the hole and then use of a hammer to drive both bearings out. Installation was just the reverse since I was moving my bearings from the stock linkage to a lowering link rather than replacing the bearings with bushing.
-
Bomer, in your first pics that is the swing arm bushing correct? I was a little confused, I know we get 5 total to replace the ones on the rocker assmebly but does this include the new bushings for the swingarm. In replacing the swinga rm bushing whats involved woth that any special tools is there another swingarm bushing on the back side? Thx Steve
-
Bomer, in your first pics that is the swing arm bushing correct? I was a little confused, I know we get 5 total to replace the ones on the rocker assmebly but does this include the new bushings for the swingarm. In replacing the swinga rm bushing whats involved woth that any special tools is there another swingarm bushing on the back side? Thx Steve
You are not replacing anything that is permanently located in or on the swing-arm itself. You will be removing 4 bearings from the rocker and replacing with 3 as one of the longer bushings replaces 2 smaller bearings in the center position or perhaps the forward position depending on weather or not Kawasaki managed to botch the install as many bikes are found with 2 of the smaller the bearings in the wrong location. The other 2 bushings go to the end of the dog bone shaped linkages these in turn mount to the swing-arm via the shouldered bolts. Order the bushings as directed and remove the rocker arm as well as the two dog bones from the bike. Hammer out all bearings with a deep socket that just fits the ID of the rocker. You can also hammer in the new bushings the same way or use a bench vice to gently press the bushings into place. Believe me you can't install the bushings in the wrong locations unless your severely impaired.
It really is as simple as that.
-
I thought I remembered that one or two of the bushings had to be trimmed down. Is that not true?
-
I thought I remembered that one or two of the bushings had to be trimmed down. Is that not true?
Nope... No trimming required.
-
Ok, cool. I am glad I remembered it incorrectly ;)
When installing the bearings, is it advisable to apply some lube to the surface you are installing the bearing to?
-
Ok, cool. I am glad I remembered it incorrectly ;)
When installing the bearings, is it advisable to apply some lube to the surface you are installing the bearing to?
It is an interfearance press fit so any lube would be pressed out on install so the answer is no.
-
Tony, I am squared away on the bushings. My new Question is back at the swing arm bushing on the right side behind the bla.ck triangle plastic cover. What sort of maint do i need to do on this I.e . pull it out clean and regrease, What are the leading particulars on removing it and reinstall with porper torque specs is there one on the outside and the inside plsr? thx in advance as always Steve
-
Tony, I am squared away on the bushings. My new Question is back at the swing arm bushing on the right side behind the black.ck triangle plastic cover. What sort of maint do i need to do on this I.e . pull it out clean and re-grease, What are the leading particulars on removing it and reinstall with proper torque specs is there one on the outside and the inside plsr? thx in advance as always Steve
The Swing-Arm pivots on a pair of tapered cylindrical Roller Bearings very similar to the steering neck bearings; on higher mileage bikes they may need to be removed cleaned and greased to which there is a specific set of instructions in the Service Manual that lists the torque spec.
-
It's been reported by more than one individual that they found very little lube on the swing arm bearings. Mine had very little when I pulled them the first time.
-
very good sirs I will checkem out. thx Steve
-
At the risk of sounding stupid, you can really feel a difference in the rear with this mod?
-
At the risk of sounding stupid, you can really feel a difference in the rear with this mod?
I feel that I can tell a difference in smoothness, quietness, and yes in tightness but I've also fitted an extra bushing in the bolt fit of the dog bone to the rocker that removed any and all remaining slop in the linkage. Any slop can be felt as a jolt when crossing heavy bumps.
-
Thanks T. It seemed worth it just to stop the uneven wear on the bolts. I know this jolt you speak of, it would be nice to get rid of it.
-
What would you recommend for lubrication?
-
What would you recommend for lubrication?
With the use of "Oiled" Bronze lubrication is no longer paramount but I still grease mine with the same old EP-2 wheel bearing grease as I did before.
-
Part of the problem with my suspension was the over greasing of the original bushings pushing out the seals and of course letting road grit and water in. We're not greasing Cat Tracks so a little goes a long way.
-
Part of the problem with my suspension was the over greasing of the original bushings pushing out the seals and of course letting road grit and water in. We're not greasing Cat Tracks so a little goes a long way.
Once you install bushings in place of the needle bearings the first time you go to grease them you will wonder if you dis something wrong as it will be very hard to pump the grease in. This is because of the fact that you now have a solid bushing to shoulder fit with very little clearance so the grease really has no where to go. All that is needed is one or two pumps once or twice a year at the most.
-
ordered bushing from Patrick. He had no clue to what I was talking about when I asked for Concours bushing fix. Nice guy. he said it would take a couple of days to cut some 20mm bushings down to 16mm. $48.00 for parts.
-
Interesting how all the old threads are showing up again. When I started this thread many years ago I had a drawing (somewhere) of the bushes I made. I found the hows, whys, and instructions for this modification. Some of this may be helpful.
Things to consider:
1) pin, rocker & linkage diameters were measured using a dial vernier calliper with 0.05mm increments, not the most accurate tool for this. Third decimal places were guesstimated by me. To convert mm to inches divide mm by 25.4, e.g., 20.003mm / 25.4 = 0.7875”.
2) diameters shown for pins, rocker & linkages were derived from averaging all the dimensions I measured. It is not practical to make a bush for each specific location.
3) bushes are longer than standard bearings and don’t leave a lot of grease cavity, shorten them if you want.
4) from memory (I did this a few years ago) 1 bush had to have its inside diameter opened up a bit and 2 bushes had to have their outside diameters reduced a bit, I did all of this by hand using fine emery cloth. The reason for this is a combination of tolerances, averaging of measurements, and poor measuring by me.
To remove the original bearings I placed cloth over a vice and draped between the jaws, then sitting the rocker on the vice with jaws opened just enough to let the bearing out I used a suitable sized socket as a drift and hit the bearing out.
To fit the new bush I placed heavy cloth over the vice as above and using the same socket as above, placed all pieces between the jaws & pressed the bush into its hole in the rocker until it was centred equally (measured this with vernier depth gauge). Do not bother with anti seize or lubricant as this is an interference fit and the anti seize will be scraped off. This method could be used to remove bearing but a packer would be needed to allow the bearing to come out.
Warning: when pressing the bushes in I “felt” 2 were too tight, that’s why I polished them down. I can’t describe “feel’, it is something you have naturally or have developed. If you are not confident in this have somebody who has the ability fit the bushes for you. If bushes are too large they will crack the aluminium body (die cast?) they go into. This is not good to repair, repair will be weaker than stock, and may distort the bore. Would you trust it? In this country where we eat the animals on our coat of arms the price would be about a slab of beer to have the bushes pressed in place. Not much for peace of mind.
Disclaimer: you are welcome to use the drawings & I offer them freely but take no responsibility for any problems or damage you may encounter. I haven’t had any issues yet.
That’s it, please let me know how this mod works for you.
Note that point 3 coincides with what T Cro stated in reply 43. Very little goes in. I use moly grease.
Regards, Russell
-
New seals (available only from Kawasaki)
Which seals for the entire project discussed here are required, and how many of them are there?
-
Kawa part number....92049-1109 Seal - oil,arm,cnt Quantity 10.....price $5.01...each.
-
OUCH! $5.01 is not terrible, but it adds up quickly when you need 10! That and another $50 or so in bushings puts it over $100 in a hurry. Not that I don't feel it will be worth it, just a few bucks more than I was hoping for at the momment.
-
OUCH! $5.01 is not terrible, but it adds up quickly when you need 10! That and another $50 or so in bushings puts it over $100 in a hurry. Not that I don't feel it will be worth it, just a few bucks more than I was hoping for at the momment.
Well then don't replace them.... Unless they are damaged in some way there is no reason not to reuse them as they are very easy to remove and re-install. Simply pry them out by placing a small screwdriver under their lip and pop them out.
-
Well then don't replace them.... Unless they are damaged in some way there is no reason not to reuse them as they are very easy to remove and re-install. Simply pry them out by placing a small screwdriver under their lip and pop them out.
I've done the bushing job several times now and have nor replaced any of these seals.
-
Sounds good to me. It sounds like it's something that can be done after the fact without too much disassembly if I do find a few bad ones.
-
Sounds good to me. It sounds like it's something that can be done after the fact without too much disassembly if I do find a few bad ones.
Yes the seals are made of steel and are lipped so not only are they really easy to pry out they install just as easy as you can't seat them too deeply due to the lip. And even if you leave them out not a deal breaker at all as bushings are no where near as fussy as bearings are when it comes to grit/dirt. Pump in the fresh grease to purge out the old and wipe off the leakage/spillage.
-
I like this project more all the time ;D
-
Mine are on the way, and I will be reusing all of my old seals. Looking forward to finishing this project. And if you decide to continue on, I found that my local bearing dealer to give me the best price on swingarm bearings, which I was in desperate need of. I got them for $10 apiece.
-
I've also fitted an extra bushing in the bolt fit of the dog bone to the rocker that removed any and all remaining slop in the linkage.
T, any pics of this maybe?
Thanks.
-
T, any pics of this maybe?
No sorry.... One dog bone is held captive by the edge of the shoulder of the shoulder bolt and the nut and the other dog bone has a slightly oversized hole that floats on the shoulder OD Of the shoulder bolt and this is where the unchecked up and down slop comes from. I simply purchased a 20mm ID x 24mm OD x 16mm Length Bronze Bushing from McMaster.com part # 6658K43 to which I drilled out the dog bone to press fit the bushing and cut the bushings length to match the thickness of the hole that the bushing is fit into.
-
So in the diagram below you are referencing where 92002 passes through 46102 and attaches to 92015? And you drilled out 46102 for the bushing?
Or where 92002 passes through 46102A and you drilled that out? <-- I'm thinking this one.
-
Yes drilled out 46102A and fitted bushing.
-
I'm no ME, but I thought that was crappy design when I came across it during my rear suspension R&R. I was puzzled by the use of needle bearings also.
Next time I get in there it's getting bushings.
-
Well, I emailed both companies for a quote.
I've also ordered the LED dash bulbs.
Now to order some tires.
This has been the best bike I've ever had. 10 years of fun. The 2002 has got to be the best.
I found some stuff to fix the transmission paper gasket leak (only leaks when it's on the side stand and raises the oil level on the left side) without dis-assembly,
http://www.permatex.com.au/UserFiles/File/PX-0334.82099SpraynSeal.SS.pdf (http://www.permatex.com.au/UserFiles/File/PX-0334.82099SpraynSeal.SS.pdf)
It's not how I would like to fix it but it works and only $8.
-
Just received an email from ernestinef@ametric.com ;
You can fax the order in or email , phone the order in. The part number 20-27x16, 20-27x32. All purchases are credit card only That's 61.63 plus tax and shipping
Self-Lubricating Sintered Bronze Bearings/Bushings
3 @ 20 mm ID x 27 mm OD x 16 mm Length $11.91 each we have stock
2 @ 20 mm ID x 27 mm OD x 32 mm Length $12.95 each we have stock
Then you need new bolts
SKU QTY Your Price List Price Total Price
1077847 BOLT,SUSPENSION ARM (92002-1709) X $21.11 $27.82 $42.23
Added to order on: 01/13/2013 @ 08:44PM You Save: $6.71 (24%)
1077848 BOLT,SUSPENSION ARM (92002-1710) X $17.14 $24.84 $51.42
Added to order on: 01/13/2013 @ 08:45PM You Save: $7.70 (31%)
Sub Total: $93.65
https://www.ronayers.com/Fiche/TypeID/26/Type/Motorcycle/MakeID/3/Make/Kawasaki/YearID/43/Year/2002/ModelID/4268/Model/Concours/GroupID/135143/Group/Rear_Suspension (https://www.ronayers.com/Fiche/TypeID/26/Type/Motorcycle/MakeID/3/Make/Kawasaki/YearID/43/Year/2002/ModelID/4268/Model/Concours/GroupID/135143/Group/Rear_Suspension)
Now we're looking at $155.28 plus shipping and handling and install and mistakes. Has to be a better source.
-
Why are you replacing the shoulder bolts? Unless they are in really bad shape there is no reason why you can't reuse them. Mainly as you absolutely will need to polish down their OD till it slip fits to the bushing as you don't want to polish the ID of an oiled bronze bushing; this will smear its pores. I polished the bolts by chucking them in a drill press and turning them at high speed with a piece of emery cloth; check the fit several times till you get a nice fit. Even if the bolts are indented most oif not all of that will polish out and even it is does not you will still have plenty of bolt surface to provide more than adequate support to the bronze.
This price may be old but it can't be that old...
Self-Lubricating Sintered Bronze Bearings/Bushings
3 @ 20 mm ID x 27 mm OD x 16 mm Length
2 @ 20 mm ID x 27 mm OD x 32 mm Length
WWW.LM-TARBELL.COM (http://WWW.LM-TARBELL.COM)
PATRICK FALLON
413-525-4166
Expect to pay roughly 36.00 for the bushings plus shipping.
-
Why are you replacing the shoulder bolts? Unless they are in really bad shape there is no reason why you can't reuse them. Mainly as you absolutely will need to polish down their OD till it slip fits to the bushing as you don't want to polish the ID of an oiled bronze bushing; this will smear its pores. I polished the bolts by chucking them in a drill press and turning them at high speed with a piece of emery cloth; check the fit several times till you get a nice fit. Even if the bolts are indented most oif not all of that will polish out and even it is does not you will still have plenty of bolt surface to provide more than adequate support to the bronze.
This price may be old but it can't be that old...
Self-Lubricating Sintered Bronze Bearings/Bushings
3 @ 20 mm ID x 27 mm OD x 16 mm Length
2 @ 20 mm ID x 27 mm OD x 32 mm Length
WWW.LM-TARBELL.COM (http://WWW.LM-TARBELL.COM)
PATRICK FALLON
413-525-4166
Expect to pay roughly 36.00 for the bushings plus shipping.
I'm glad to hear you say that about the bolts...cuz...that's what I was thinking... :)
-
I'm glad to hear you say that about the bolts...cuz...that's what I was thinking... :)
I'd never steer y'all wrong.....
-
Why are you replacing the shoulder bolts? Unless they are in really bad shape there is no reason why you can't reuse them. Mainly as you absolutely will need to polish down their OD till it slip fits to the bushing as you don't want to polish the ID of an oiled bronze bushing; this will smear its pores. I polished the bolts by chucking them in a drill press and turning them at high speed with a piece of emery cloth; check the fit several times till you get a nice fit. Even if the bolts are indented most oif not all of that will polish out and even it is does not you will still have plenty of bolt surface to provide more than adequate support to the bronze.
This price may be old but it can't be that old...
Self-Lubricating Sintered Bronze Bearings/Bushings
3 @ 20 mm ID x 27 mm OD x 16 mm Length
2 @ 20 mm ID x 27 mm OD x 32 mm Length
WWW.LM-TARBELL.COM (http://WWW.LM-TARBELL.COM)
PATRICK FALLON
413-525-4166
Expect to pay roughly 36.00 for the bushings plus shipping.
The bolts were pretty messed up, maybe a little worse than the pics in the first post. You say polish them. About how many thousands are you thinking, just a couple?
-
The bolts were pretty messed up, maybe a little worse than the pics in the first post. You say polish them. About how many thousands are you thinking, just a couple?
Can't hurt to try polishing them and see how much they clean up and they will clean up a lot as they are not hardened bolts. I found that when you press in the new bronze bushing that they will compress by a couple thousand and that the bolts will not fit through until they are polished up accordingly. Keep in mind that a few shallow divots in the bolt will not bother the bushings at all and in fact give a pocket for oil/grease to hide; this is the true advantage to bushing verse needle bearings as the only support you get from the needle bearing is from the contact surface of the tiny needles whereas the bushing offers 100 % surface contact.
-
Done! $58.70 delivered
installation with interruptions, 2 1/2 hours - without, about an hour.
As you said T Cro, I think I used a 3/4 deep well socket to drive them out, used the vice to press them in flush and the socket to drive them in another .350 for the seal. Again the bolts are soft. Chucked them in a drill and in about 15 seconds they looked new. It did take a little more work on one to fit the bushing but not much. I used some BG prelube to assemble. I got a work out with the grease gun, stop laughing!
Thanks for all your advice and experience.
Ordered bushings from
WWW.LM-TARBELL.COM (http://WWW.LM-TARBELL.COM)
PATRICK FALLON
413-525-4166,
receipt attached for part numbers and price.
-
Done! $58.70 delivered
installation with interruptions, 2 1/2 hours - without, about an hour.
As you said T Cro, I think I used a 3/4 deep well socket to drive them out, used the vice to press them in flush and the socket to drive them in another .350 for the seal. Again the bolts are soft. Chucked them in a drill and in about 15 seconds they looked new. It did take a little more work on one to fit the bushing but not much. I used some BG prelube to assemble. I got a work out with the grease gun, stop laughing!
Thanks for all your advice and experience.
Glad to hear that it all worked out for ya... Ya the clearance is so tight that the grease gun can barely pump the grease through...
-
Glad to hear that it all worked out for ya... Ya the clearance is so tight that the grease gun can barely pump the grease through...
The rear is real tight now. Probably out last me. I also did the 4 led instrument lights, now it's ready for a new rear tire. I'm going back to Elite 3 bias. It's good for 20k.