Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: basmntdweller on August 29, 2011, 09:52:10 AM
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I was out at practice on Friday and quals on Saturday. I got to wondering how a C14 would fare on the IMS MotoGP track with appropriate tires but otherwise stock. I think the pole was about 1:39.25 for the big bikes and the 125s were 1:49 or so. The Harleys were in the 1:57/1:58 range. I am guessing a C14 would best the Harleys but would one be capable of running with the 125's or even faster? This is assuming an experienced racer on the bike of course. With my skills and balls, I'd be lucky to break 3:00!
Just curious, Matt
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I don't think they'd ever hang with or see lap times of the light nimble 125s on that track, do you? Seems enough straights to make up for for all the braking and turning going on?
You were there, you could probably answer best (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)
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I am amazed the 125s are within 12 seconds of the big bikes! I don't know much about the XR1200 Harleys but I would expect a C14 to be way quicker than them. They looked pretty slow compared to the big bikes coming out of the last turn and runnin down the front stretch. Even the 125s looked fast in comparison.
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I am amazed the 125s are within 12 seconds of the big bikes! I don't know much about the XR1200 Harleys but I would expect a C14 to be way quicker than them. They looked pretty slow compared to the big bikes coming out of the last turn and runnin down the front stretch. Even the 125s looked fast in comparison.
Yeah its all about braking and turning on the track. And the C14 isn't that quick, my CBR600RR made 20 less horsepower but ate my C14 alive on acceleration because it was light as a feather and my C14 was a dump truck in weight comparison.
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I agree with Steve. And the weight of the Concours would eat tires and brakes running at a race pace for any length of time.
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Last two posts sum it up quite well.
At the recent training event I was at where Chris "Teach" McNeil was instructing we were talking about his BMW S1000 RR. Chris said it's a very capable bike, but he can cook the brakes on it in 15 minutes on the right track. It is easily 200-250 lbs. lighter than a C14.
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I'd be surprised if the C14 could keep up with track setup Harley XR1200s.
If you replaced the tyres, forks and shock, then maybe, but even then the Hardleys are very light.
You'd be very surprised how hard it is to keep up with someone on even a small bike that is setup for the track.
A friend has a CBR400RR that is his track-day special and another friend who has a road legal R1 cannot stay with him on the track, even with both running slicks.
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Thanks for the replies guys. I didn't realize weight made up that much difference over HP. The way they were talking on the PA, the Harleys were stock bikes with the exception of tires and exhaust, the latter provided by Vance and Hines, the series title sponsor.
I have always wanted to do some track time but always figured I would be in the way more than anything.
Matt
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Thanks for the replies guys. I didn't realize weight made up that much difference over HP. The way they were talking on the PA, the Harleys were stock bikes with the exception of tires and exhaust, the latter provided by Vance and Hines, the series title sponsor.
I have always wanted to do some track time but always figured I would be in the way more than anything.
Matt
In most cases, someone is "in the way" because of their riding ability, not the limitations of the bike they are riding. Plenty of Gixxer 1000s parking in corners at a track day near you!
; )
Barry
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In most cases, someone is "in the way" because of their riding ability, not the limitations of the bike they are riding. Plenty of Gixxer 1000s parking in corners at a track day near you!
; )
Barry
That was pretty much my point. I could be on the fastest, best tuned race bike and a good rider on a wore out old Honda Shadow 750 would still smoke me on the track! I have "performance anxiety" on corner entry 95% of the time. I am working on it but it is still there.
Matt
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Check out schools in your area for a non race oriented track day, here in the PNW ( www.pugetsoundsafety.com (http://www.pugetsoundsafety.com) ) we have a session we call SMART ASS, which is an Advanced Street Skills conducted at Pacific Raceways. Great to know you wont have opposing traffic and control riders to help keep things sane, not to mention medical on call, something you wont find standing by on some lonely pass filled with awesome twisties and roaming forrest rats ;D
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That was pretty much my point. I could be on the fastest, best tuned race bike and a good rider on a wore out old Honda Shadow 750 would still smoke me on the track! I have "performance anxiety" on corner entry 95% of the time. I am working on it but it is still there.
Matt
Work on it on the track. I can't focus on the street. You can learn a LOOOOOOT more on track than on street. DOO IIIIT !
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I did a lap of IMS on my connie
this Monday morning. The track is wide and super smooth but a couple of pretty tight sections where the 125s would have a huge advantage.
That's my buddy Jimmie on his 09 just ahead of me.
(http://www.lamsta.com/gallery/IMS_lap04.jpg)
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Thanks for the replies guys. I didn't realize weight made up that much difference over HP.
OMG, weight is EXTREMELY important when talking about performance. It affects everything. Braking, cornering, acceleration, traction, ride, etc. Car and bike racers are obsessed about shaving every bit of weight off their vehicles (and moving necessary weight around to different places).
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I did a track day on my 2011 C14, it was extremely enjoyable and I learnt a lot. I wasn't the fastest out there but who cares, I road faster and smoother than I've ever road before.
Great day. I did post a video, not sure if it was before or after the forum crash.
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In most cases, someone is "in the way" because of their riding ability, not the limitations of the bike they are riding. Plenty of Gixxer 1000s parking in corners at a track day near you!
; )
Barry
Not the case with MOTOGP riders as mentioned in 1st post. Nor the case with same rider/same track on 2 different model bikes. One of the bikes will yeild faster lap times.
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Yeah its all about braking and turning on the track. And the C14 isn't that quick, my CBR600RR made 20 less horsepower but ate my C14 alive on acceleration because it was light as a feather and my C14 was a dump truck in weight comparison.
I still have not met a 600 I could not out accelerate at some point depending on sprocket setup...sooner or later I pass them by. Or in the case of a stock setup I dont have to pass because they never get ahead of me.
On a track though I think a 600 will be able to put big bikes away on corner entry.
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Not the case with MOTOGP riders as mentioned in 1st post. Nor the case with same rider/same track on 2 different model bikes. One of the bikes will yeild faster lap times.
I was speaking in terms of the lower end of the spectrum, where a rider on a really good bike can get cooked by a much better rider on a lesser machine.
I agree at the upper end of the bike/rider performance envelope, your statement stands. So put the original poster on an 800 cc Moto GP bike, and you on a C14. You would probably beat his lap times... Relative to being "in the way", again, something is wrong if i'm on my supermoto passing 600s/1000s on corner entry / exit. That's not bike, that's all rider.
YMMV,
Barry
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I think you would get a rude wake up call if you put c-14 on a road course .
Its just way too heavy and mush suspension to boot .
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I think you would get a rude wake up call if you put c-14 on a road course .
Its just way too heavy and mush suspension to boot .
Keep telling yourself that. Differant bikes and differant techniques.
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Keep telling yourself that. Differant bikes and differant techniques.
+1 big time....
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C14 will have to brake early, the little 600 will fly around you going into everytun turn and laugh. Personally, I'd wait up for you after every turn to repeat this again over and over.
In the turns, the 600's would massacre you.
If on a track like Daytona with a long straight, a tiny section of straight the C14 would pull, but again it would start braking way before the 600 and get stomped.
Anyone who thinks this behomoth bike can perform competively against little track weapons on a track should seriously go experience a track day or two.
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Anyone who thinks this behomoth bike can perform competively against little track weapons on a track should seriously go experience a track day or two.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that. What I am suggesting is the bike is fully capable of being ridden very hard (maybe brakes would cook) on a road circuit. A 600 supersport, nor a GoldWing, it aint.
There is a wee bit of gray in between the black and white. Look into it.
:chugbeer:
Barry
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I will attest to greasy brakes from an indicated 140 or so ;D Body position, entry speed, and entry point are critical. Get in too hot and the weight really shows up, hit it just right and the power really pulls you through. I will be at Pacific Raceways the 16th, first time on the track with my LSL bars. Weather should be dry and mid 70's. Morning session I will run with the bags on, Afternoon will be sans bags!
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The way they were talking on the PA, the Harleys were stock bikes with the exception of tires and exhaust, the latter provided by Vance and Hines, the series title sponsor.
Matt
The XR1200 series rules require a spec kit (non-stock) of bodywork, pipe, ECU ("Racing Fuelpak) and 17" front wheel all sourced from V&H (http://www.vanceandhines.com/xr1200series/racekit.html), spec tires, and allows suspension and brake mods on both ends + controls & instruments mods (footpegs, bars, etc). When you put it all together they're significantly different from stock in terms of things that matter when you're trying to go fast on a road course.
The "they're stock" hype is part of the marketing strategy for the primary XR1200 Series stakeholders (V&H, HD and AMA Pro-road racing/Daytona Motorsports Group).
Not suggesting that the difference between street and track is nearly so great in the XR Series, but remember, NASCAR is called "stock car racing" and the AMA Pro Road racing series is owned by the same parent company as NASCAR ;)
Having watched Danny Eslick race at many times with the CMRA, I'm 100% confident that his times on the lighter though slightly lower powered 'Series XR' would be better than his times on the C14 on any US roadcourse including long-straight Daytona 8)
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So, for those in the PNW area, come join me on the 16th, more info at http://www.advancedstreetskills.com/ (http://www.advancedstreetskills.com/) , shameless plug for Puget Sound Safety. 99.9% of us get something out of this event everytime we are there. Dont worry, if your on one of the slower colored non Neutron Silver 14s I will take it easy on ya! Come see for yourself just how capable our beloved whale really is and decide for yourself just how well your 14 (or any other bike) would fare.
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I watched the well ridden XRs run this w/e at NJMP They are no joke.
A little faster than I thought they'd be.
They weigh quite a bit less than a c-14.
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I will attest to greasy brakes from an indicated 140 or so ;D Body position, entry speed, and entry point are critical. Get in too hot and the weight really shows up, hit it just right and the power really pulls you through. I will be at Pacific Raceways the 16th, first time on the track with my LSL bars. Weather should be dry and mid 70's. Morning session I will run with the bags on, Afternoon will be sans bags!
PICS of BAGS ON THE TRACK, PLEASE (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/avatars/iconmerci.gif)
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I love to show up to a ride, two up. Then at the first gas stop, buy a pallet of water, and fill up both bags.
Offer everyone a water and continue the ride. Waste 'em in the twisties, and listen to the comments that night at the campfire.
Good times indeed. ;D
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Morning session I will run with the bags on,
ive heard others say they run the track with bags and i just dont get it. Please explain why you would leave on some easy to remove weight and bulk
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Let me see a 600cc track toy ride 400 miles to the track then turn around and ride home after the race. I just got home from TN/NC and I know my bike wasn't the fastest around those roads but it was plenty fast for me. It also isn't the most comfortable for a long road trip compared to a Gold Wing. But IMO it is the best tool for riding a long way then ripping up some mountain roads. I have no illusions about being competitive on a track but that won't keep me from wanting to do a track day if the opportunity arises. Like I have said before, the C14 is my "just right" bowl of porridge...... so you can call me Goldilocks. :D
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C14 will have to brake early, the little 600 will fly around you going into everytun turn and laugh. Personally, I'd wait up for you after every turn to repeat this again over and over.
In the turns, the 600's would massacre you.
If on a track like Daytona with a long straight, a tiny section of straight the C14 would pull, but again it would start braking way before the 600 and get stomped.
Anyone who thinks this behomoth bike can perform competively against little track weapons on a track should seriously go experience a track day or two.
:goodpost:
If you guys really think your C14 is fast, go do a track day with 600 track bikes, you'll be embarased for sure... Stick to a nice mix of comfort with storage and some extra power without being on a Goldwing brutha's, this is a sporty street bike for us old guys.
:chugbeer:
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ive heard others say they run the track with bags and i just dont get it. Please explain why you would leave on some easy to remove weight and bulk
It all depends on why you go to the track. If you are going to develop your skills and explore the bike's limits, why not do it in the configuration that you most often use when riding?
If you are looking for the last 10th of a second of lap time, of course you strip the bike.
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ive heard others say they run the track with bags and i just dont get it. Please explain why you would leave on some easy to remove weight and bulk
It is a Advanced Street Skills day, dont mean to make an ASS ;) of myself, but I have been seen on the street with them on :D It shows the students what is possible and keeps me sharp as well. Not to mention Steve keeps asking for pics of a C14 on the track with bags on and since he hasn't the courage to do it himself I will 8) 8)
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PICS of BAGS ON THE TRACK, PLEASE
No bags I know...they had a load of gear in them and I figured I take them off before the tech inspection (just in case).
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FWIW, I have been wanting to do a track day for a long time. Reading many of the replies here has me thinking of picking up a well used 600 sport bike just for track days so I don't risk tearing up my C14. I really need more of a performance school geared towards beginning riders. Maybe something to plan for in the spring. From what I have found, all the track days near me are done for the year.
I am somewhat disappointed in what some here feel would be the on track capabilities of our C14s. I thought sure that a C14 would blow away the Harleys, maybe even beat the 125s. No matter, it still has plenty to scare the Shiite out of me!
Thanks for the replies, Matt
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I did a track day on my 2011 C14, it was extremely enjoyable and I learnt a lot. I wasn't the fastest out there but who cares, I road faster and smoother than I've ever road before.
Great day. I did post a video, not sure if it was before or after the forum crash.
Im glad you did it ..I think everyone should because you cant help but learn a whole lot there.
If possible, next time out , try it with a bike thats 200 lbs lighter and report back .
Think of the fun you had X 5
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PICS of BAGS ON THE TRACK, PLEASE (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/avatars/iconmerci.gif)
Fer Steve
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Fer Steve
Ok, SoP, now you have to tell me how you've got that tinted screen... :hail:
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I took her off, cleaned it up really good, taped the edges carefully and painted the inside with some black Krylon paint. It really does change the looks.
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Awesome SOP simply awesome. Thanks so much for sharing. That looks like it would be a blast. 8)
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I took her off, cleaned it up really good, taped the edges carefully and painted the inside with some black Krylon paint. It really does change the looks.
Are you kidding or serious? It appears in some of the pictures to be transparent like window tint.
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Are you kidding or serious? It appears in some of the pictures to be transparent like window tint.
I did the same thing but must have been a little more heavy handed than SOP. I am still happy with mine though. It really isn't that hard, just make sure you use light coats.
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Yep, serious. I can see through the mounting holes, when she is off, but other than that it is as black as can be. The important part other then clean is taping the edges. Looks flawless and gives the bike a nice stance. During introductions I always intro my bike as my silver, grossly underpowered whale!! I think it was three coats, the first was a light coat, 2nd and 3rd were pretty heavy. I even did my Cee Bailey Euro, I left the top 4 inches clear and an opening on the bottom for my PGR sticker.
I'd sure like to see some more connies at the ASS class, so fay I've seen an 08 and a slow 09 ;) Weve also had several C10s show up. The beauty of the class? Brief classroom session, then straight out to the track to put theory into action and having a few coaches watching and offering suggestions for improvement. We get return students all the time sighning up for more. http://www.advancedstreetskills.com/ (http://www.advancedstreetskills.com/)
We dont know what we dont know. This isnt an MSF course, it is geared to improve everyday street riding and in a better environment.
Chet