Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Dade22 on July 24, 2011, 05:54:48 AM
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I see another person posted about their final drive so I figured I would post something quick quick.
I was on a long bike ride yesterday and this morning I noticed oil streaks on my rear rim. It turned out to be gear lube. Before we go into too many details can I have someone post the proper way to fill the rear drive so its not over filled?
Also does this mean the seal is shot or is it a fluke and its nothing to worry about. I have less than 7000 on my 09 an hate to think the seal is bad already.
Thanks
Dade22
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I think every will be fine. One time, I overfilled the gear oil, and of course the oil was coming every which way.
Put the bike on the center stand, get the gear oil in the final drive, fill it until the oil is at the level as the hole you fill. If it starting to leak out, you put too much.
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Give the oil a while to settle, and add a little more. Don't spin the tire.
As long as you don't spin the wheel, you can't overfill it.
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Well....thats what I did to fill it. Is everyone sure use fill it on the center stand?
I did just that and rode it for a while. Let it sit in the garage for a day on the center stand. I rechecked it and it was low...about 1/2 to 1 oz low. I added it and thats the way its been since I changed the gear oil about 3 months ago.
I just went on a 200+ ride yesterday and noticed it this morning after I got home.
Just hope there isnt any damage.
I will put it on the center stand and check it again and take out a little if need be.
Thanks
Dade22
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The manual says check and fill with the bike level. If the bike is simply on the center stand it is NOT level, the rear wheel is off the ground. Put a board under the front wheel such that the rear wheel is touching the ground, then fill.
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I just park it facing up a slight incline.
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The manual says check and fill with the bike level. If the bike is simply on the center stand it is NOT level, the rear wheel is off the ground. Put a board under the front wheel such that the rear wheel is touching the ground, then fill.
Let's split some hairs...the difference is like .2 of an oz.
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can it be checked no on the center stand?
I will just put a board under the front and check it again. So you guys dont think the seals are damaged do you?
Thanks again...I get paranoid over the smallest things. I have too many harley friends that seem to NEVER have any issues with their bikes. Like to make mine seem lower maintenance and no problems. LOL
Dade22
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I'm pretty sure it's fine. If it's leaking, You'll have a big mess.
Clean it up and keep an eye on it.
Filling it with or without the front raised won't make much difference. Look at the difference at the engine oil level. There is none. 8)
I'm also sure that running a bit low for two days won't hurt it.
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Let's split some hairs...the difference is like .2 of an oz.
How did you arrive at that quantity? Fill it without the board, then put the board under the front tire and watch how much comes out.
I don't care what the difference is. What matters to me is when I fill without the board I get lube leaked out all over my wheel. When I use the board no leak.
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I'm pretty sure it's fine. If it's leaking, You'll have a big mess.
Clean it up and keep an eye on it.
Filling it with or without the front raised won't make much difference. Look at the difference at the engine oil level. There is none. 8)
This is certainly untrue with my C14. On mine it is the difference between no oil visible in the sight glass and oil at the bottom line.
Running a bit low will probably cause no harm but running a bit high may cause a leak, it does on mine.
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yeah...I checked it with the center stand and a board. Not much different then when I filled it before. I used a paper towel to soak up a little of the oil that came up on the treads of the fill hole.
Can it be checked when I hold it up off both stands while someone else checks it?
I did give it a bath when I was done checking it. It looked like the embridge oil spill in my drive way. I hope this isnt a sign that the seals are shot.
Oh well.
Thanks
Dade22
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yeah...I checked it with the center stand and a board. Not much different then when I filled it before. I used a paper towel to soak up a little of the oil that came up on the treads of the fill hole.
Can it be checked when I hold it up off both stands while someone else checks it?
I did give it a bath when I was done checking it. It looked like the embridge oil spill in my drive way. I hope this isnt a sign that the seals are shot.
Oh well.
Thanks
Dade22
Using a helper would be the ideal way to do it. If your oil leak IS from overfilling the drive I don't think it has anything to due with any seals. I think it is oil mist coming out of the breather and collecting on the rim. Mine did this after my first drive lube change due to overfilling. I learned how to do it right and 50,000 miles later it has never happend again.
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I use the center stand to drain and fill. I've drained it and then pushed the rear tire back onto the ground. No more fluid comes out (at least for me). So I don't do that anymore. So I drain it on the center stand and then refill to about a 1/4 inch below the rim. So far no leaks and no problems with it in 45k miles and I do change it every 5k miles. The refill plug can be a PITA to remove so don't tighten it within an inch of it's life. Also the drain plug will strip threads if overly tightened. It doesn't take much.
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If you look in the final drive and think about it a little, the oil doesn't have to be right up to the lip to lubricate everything thoroughly. There's no good reason to overfill. Get it close to full and everything will be fine.
If it still spews oil onto the wheel, you've got a problem.
Has anyone come up with an acceptable torque value for the drain plug? Seems like the shop manual value is for dry threads.
-RC
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Anyone have a photo of what the final drive seal leak looks like? (ie oil everywhere)
Im still getting a little spin off that may just be from an over fill. Just not sure how long it takes for the excess to go away. I have checked it and the drive oil is just at the first thread on the inside.
Dade22
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You could just drain it and bring the level to about a 1/4 inch below the rim and see what happens then. There isn't that much fluid in the rear drive to begin with.
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(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/BDF08012008/Rearendleak.jpg)
That is a relatively slow leak; some leak badly enough to leave a puddle on the wheel and spill down the tire onto the ground. My leak was caused by a failed inner seal.
Brian
Anyone have a photo of what the final drive seal leak looks like? (ie oil everywhere)
Im still getting a little spin off that may just be from an over fill. Just not sure how long it takes for the excess to go away. I have checked it and the drive oil is just at the first thread on the inside.
Dade22
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Sorry I have no picture but I can describe what my overfill caused leak looked like in contrast to Brain's pic. There was no sign of oil on the wheel hub. Also the oil on the wheel rim was in a definete circumferential streak pattern as opposed to the splatter pattern you see in the pic.
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(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/BDF08012008/Rearendleak.jpg)
That is a relatively slow leak; some leak badly enough to leave a puddle on the wheel and spill down the tire onto the ground. My leak was caused by a failed inner seal.
Brian
WOW...mine is no where close to what your photo shows. Only a tiny few streaks from the hub area and tiny ones on the rim. I dont think I over filled it but was wondering if you did would it push out the seals when heated up from driving it.
If so would the seals have to be changed out after that happened?
Dade22
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It sounds like you having a little excess spline lube (grease) being spun out of the rear hub. This is perfectly normal after the rear wheel has been removed if the splines were greased (and they always should be when the wheel is removed). It can take a couple thousand miles for the grease to work its way out and show up on the wheel.
If it really is drive lube leaking past a seal, it will usually make a big mess- mine was relatively minor. Also, the lube from the drive will have a strong, unpleasant odor while spline lube is pretty much odorless.
So wherever you rear end leaks just stick you finger in the leaked material and smell it- if it smells bad, you very well might have a problem needing professional assistance. If there is no odor, wipe your finger off and keep riding.
Brian
WOW...mine is no where close to what your photo shows. Only a tiny few streaks from the hub area and tiny ones on the rim. I dont think I over filled it but was wondering if you did would it push out the seals when heated up from driving it.
If so would the seals have to be changed out after that happened?
Dade22
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The rear drive has a breather which means the contents should never be under pressure. I see no way that overfilling can damage the seals. I happen to like the scent of gear lube but I agree with Brian, if the leaked stuff does not have the distinctive odor of gear lube then it must be spline grease.
Just a note: synthetic gear lube does not have the same distinctive odor. When you changed did you change to synthetic?
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Didnt have the splines lubed. I know it is gear lube. When I first picked up the bike I noticed it a little...then it went away.
I have changed the rear drive lube 2 times. This is the first time I have seen the lube all over the rim/hub.
If the lube came out of the vent would it travel down into the groove between the hub and rim? Then cause it to streak out while riding?
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Just a note: synthetic gear lube does not have the same distinctive odor. When you changed did you change to synthetic?
I beg to differ on the smell issue. I use Castrol full syn and it smells just as bad as regular. Maybe different brands have different smells?
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Well there should not be any gear lube on the rear wheel unless you spilled some when filling the drive. ;) If the lube came out of the vent you should be able to see it on the vent body. If there is gear lube coming out of the hub where it meets the wheel it sounds like a seal may have failed.
Just curious but have you recently removed the rear wheel? It seems like there might be some link between rear wheel R&R and the final drive leaking. It is probably just a coincidence though because it does not look like there is any way to stress or otherwise hurt any seals by removing the rear wheel.
Brian
Didnt have the splines lubed. I know it is gear lube. When I first picked up the bike I noticed it a little...then it went away.
I have changed the rear drive lube 2 times. This is the first time I have seen the lube all over the rim/hub.
If the lube came out of the vent would it travel down into the groove between the hub and rim? Then cause it to streak out while riding?
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The odor is caused by the extreme pressure lube 'package' (the chemicals that make up the extreme pressure aspect of the lubricant). Those additives are found in any rear end grease (hypoid lube, rear end lube, whatever you want to call it) whether it is synthetic or mineral based. And a tiny bit goes a long way; I think two drops on a pair of pants can stink up an entire house. But stink is a relative term and I only use it because I do not like that smell; I guess if someone found it attractive, two drops and that person(s) would be in love.... :D
Brian
I beg to differ on the smell issue. I use Castrol full syn and it smells just as bad as regular. Maybe different brands have different smells?
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I beg to differ on the smell issue. I use Castrol full syn and it smells just as bad as regular. Maybe different brands have different smells?
I sniffed my bottles of Mobil One and Redline and hardly any smell. Never tried the Castrol.
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Speaking of gear lube I read something interesting the other day. Although the viscosity numbers are roughly twice as high the viscosity is actually about the same as motor oil. Sound odd to me but I saw it on the WWW so it must be true 8)
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Well there should not be any gear lube on the rear wheel unless you spilled some when filling the drive. ;) If the lube came out of the vent you should be able to see it on the vent body. If there is gear lube coming out of the hub where it meets the wheel it sounds like a seal may have failed.
Just curious but have you recently removed the rear wheel? It seems like there might be some link between rear wheel R&R and the final drive leaking. It is probably just a coincidence though because it does not look like there is any way to stress or otherwise hurt any seals by removing the rear wheel.
Brian
Nope no work on the wheel at all. Just went for a 200+ mile ride the other day and the next morning I find oil on my rim.
I will take it to the local shop and see what they can tell me.
Thanks
Dade22
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Went to ride the bike today and noticed a drop of oil under the final drive. I wiped the underside of it and went for a ride. I decided to stop at the local Kawi shop and see what they thought.
As arrived I, I checked to see if there was any gear lube on the rim and hub.....YEP...there was lube.
I talked to the service tech and he set me up for Tuesday to look at it closer. He said it may take a bit longer if the warranty is through Kawasaki. Not sure what that means.
For those that have had the seals replaced on the final drive...has this been a long term fix or has anyone had a 2nd leak?
Im wondering if they had a bad batch of seals and this is why it leaks sometimes.
Dade22
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I've filled mine on the centerstand every time its been due during the life of the bike, and its got >41,000 miles on it.
No issues to report (http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/stevewfl/bigthumb.gif)
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I talked to the service tech and he set me up for Tuesday to look at it closer. He said it may take a bit longer if the warranty is through Kawasaki. Not sure what that means.
Dade22
It's a branded Kawi dealer, right? That doesn't make any sense at all to me.
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It's a branded Kawi dealer, right? That doesn't make any sense at all to me.
Yep its a branded kawi dealer. Im wondering if he was meaning that he would have to get authorization for warranty work through kawi.
Dunno. Im just hoping this isnt going to be constant thing.
Dade22
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Yep its a branded kawi dealer. Im wondering if he was meaning that he would have to get authorization for warranty work through kawi.
Dunno. Im just hoping this isnt going to be constant thing.
Dade22
+1 lubrication on wheels is just not a good thing!
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+1 lubrication on wheels is just not a good thing!
Lube on wheels is good. Lube on tires is bad. :o
8)
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Didnt have the splines lubed. I know it is gear lube. When I first picked up the bike I noticed it a little...then it went away.
I have changed the rear drive lube 2 times. This is the first time I have seen the lube all over the rim/hub.
If the lube came out of the vent would it travel down into the groove between the hub and rim? Then cause it to streak out while riding?
My leak did the same, it started leaking on the Alaskan Highway and stopped after I had it looked at in Fort Nelson Canada. The leak was very small at first. Thought I had it made until about 1k later while riding around Alaska. I bought some gear lube and checked it every morning and it got steadly worse. I limped into Vegas with the oil sprying all over the wheel and up on the bottom side of the fender. I was very nervous because it was running down the side of the tire, so I got a room and had it fixed.
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Valkmc, how long did it take to get it fixed?
Dade22
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Well, found a good shop and they looked at the rear hub. The head service tech ordered up 2 of each seal and the barring.
Not sure when the parts will be in, but Im guessing a few days. The head service tech also said he would only need the bike for 2 days maybe 3.
I just wondering if I should replace the rear tire while Im at it. I have about 6500 on the OEM tires...still have a ways to go till the ware bars on the back.
It seems that everyone likes the PR2s or PR3s. Anyone tried the conti road attack 2s? Just wondering. I loved the plain road attacks on my bandit.
Dade22
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There have been a couple of guys here that have run the Conti's. The reports that I have seen say that they handle good for the 3000 or so miles that they are on the bike. They must be very soft compared to the rubber that most everyone else runs.
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Valkmc, how long did it take to get it fixed?
Dade22
That is a story in itself, I was stranded in Vegas and the dealership and service manager knew that. I dropped it off on a Wednesday after speaking to them twice the day before. They ordered the seals without tearing it down and when the seals arrived four days later they realized the bearing needed to be replaced so they ordered that, four more days passed when I went to get it they informed me they did not have the Kawasaki tool required to change the bearing. I of course lost it and called Kawi customer service who overnighted them the proper tool. I got the bike back on Friday 10 days after I left it with them. Funny thing is I checked reviews on line and with someone I know who rides and lived in Vegas for years and all said this was the dealership to use. Well they were wrong and it sucked. Carter Motorsports was the name of the dealershiip.
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Oh no...valkmc. there is a special tool to remove the bearing?
Crap...I better call the dealership and let them know.
I dont want this to be a long drawn out process.
Dade22
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Bike gone for 3 days. Service dept. called today and said I was right about the inner seal. He said they changed all the seals while they were in there along with the bearing. Makes me feel good to know what Im talking about. Also thanks to everyone here that had the same issue.
Now I hope its fixed and wont be a reoccruing problem.
Thanks again.
Dade22
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Good News, I have put about 4k on mine since it was fixed, happy to report no more leak.
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The manual says check and fill with the bike level. If the bike is simply on the center stand it is NOT level, the rear wheel is off the ground. Put a board under the front wheel such that the rear wheel is touching the ground, then fill.
japanese level = left/right ;D
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I have 2010 model. The final drive began leaking at the about the 5,000 mile mark. My final drive seal was replaced at the dealer under warranty in June. Now it is leaking again at 8,000 miles. I've attached a photo. The picture was taken after it was moved, so the dark splatter at the back was at the bottom. This was after two weeks of sitting on the center stand.
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Maybe they should have replaced a few other things as well besides the seal...
I've found, that when I change the rear drive oil, it makes no difference that I can see to 'level' it out via board or whatever. After draining it while on the center stand, I've pushed the back of the bike back down slowly until the tire touches down and I've had no more come out. YMMV but mine doesn't.
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A few of us have had C-14 final drives leak but if I remember correctly, one or two folks have had the drive itself replaced after having repeated leaks after having a seal (or seals) replaced. Again, this seems to be extremely rare but it has happened. I would imagine a deep scratch or score in the parts that ride against the seal would be the cause but I did not ever hear of a root cause. The root cause was probably not diagnosed anyway and the dealer just replaced the drive after the first try. You might be in that same situation.
The only other thing I can think of is that it is the second seal leaking after the first one was replaced. Again, the odds against that happening are pretty long but not impossible.
As long as you have a decent dealer you should be fine once this is ironed out. Of course it is painful while it is happening but it is correctable and you should end up with a reliable bike in the end (no pun intended).
Brian
I have 2010 model. The final drive began leaking at the about the 5,000 mile mark. My final drive seal was replaced at the dealer under warranty in June. Now it is leaking again at 8,000 miles. I've attached a photo. The picture was taken after it was moved, so the dark splatter at the back was at the bottom. This was after two weeks of sitting on the center stand.
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Thanks for the info. I absolutely love the bike, and a buddy of mine has an '09 with 17,000 miles on it that is fine. One other thing I forgot to mention; he bought his bike used with 3,000 miles on it (bought mine used with 2,000 miles on it) and has had the final drive fluid changed once. His final drive fluid is as clear as when it came out of the bottle. Mine is as black as coal. Perhaps that's a clue.
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The drives seem to come from the factory with some type of moly based lube in them; I have had two new final drive assemblies on my bike (not because of any fault, failure or problem) and they both had some really nasty looking black lube come out of them. The lube also had something swirling in it as it hit the drain pan which is what makes me thing it is moly; whatever it was it did not mix in with the liquid lube. I think that black, nasty lube is normal the first time it is changed.
Brian
Thanks for the info. I absolutely love the bike, and a buddy of mine has an '09 with 17,000 miles on it that is fine. One other thing I forgot to mention; he bought his bike used with 3,000 miles on it (bought mine used with 2,000 miles on it) and has had the final drive fluid changed once. His final drive fluid is as clear as when it came out of the bottle. Mine is as black as coal. Perhaps that's a clue.
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The fix seemed to work but the other day I noticed that there was something spattering the wheel again.
Seeing that Im having the new PR3s put on tomorrow, I pulled the wheels to drop them off at the dealer for a mount and balance.
WOW...I can only guess this is the stuff I found spattering the wheels!
Im thinking the dealer went a little overboard on the molly paste....
Should I clean it all off and start over with a smaller amount of molly 60, or should I just clean some off to see how it goes.
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Holy "smear it on" Batman :o
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Gives new meaning to the term "grease monkey".
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That has to be $6 worth of Honda 60 paste dumped on there. Did they apply it with a bucket instead of the horribly inconvenient brush. ;D
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Not sure what they were doing. Probably wanted to make sure they got it. LOL
Im going to clean it off. How would one go about applying int correctly? Just a small about in the teeth of the gear?
Also, what lip are they talking about to apply high temp grease?
Thanks!
Dade22
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I would just clean the wheel side that is shown in your first picture. There would be no real reason to clean all of the moly off the splines. As long as there is still a good coating on the splines, leave it until next time then reapply. As for the grease on the lip, I can only guess that what you are refering to is the wheel spacer on the right side. Supposed to put grease on there to lube the point where the spacer contacts the dust seal.
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I would just clean the wheel side that is shown in your first picture. There would be no real reason to clean all of the moly off the splines. As long as there is still a good coating on the splines, leave it until next time then reapply. As for the grease on the lip, I can only guess that what you are refering to is the wheel spacer on the right side. Supposed to put grease on there to lube the point where the spacer contacts the dust seal.
can i use the moly paste for then grease on the lip or is there a special type Im suppose to use there?
Dade22
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can i use the moly paste for then grease on the lip or is there a special type Im suppose to use there?
Dade22
I use the Honda 60 on all of it and I haven't had any issues.
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Ok...cool. Thanks
Im putting the bike back together now. New PR3s look cool on the bike. Its funny how small the front tire looks when its off the bike. LOL
Thanks again.
Dade22
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moly paste is probably not a good choice for that, the "lip' is the outer edge of the rubber seal of the wheel bearing. You can get high temp grease at any auto parts store. The grease is also good for holding the spacer in place as you manouver the wheel into place between the fork tubes.
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moly paste is probably not a good choice for that, the "lip' is the outer edge of the rubber seal of the wheel bearing. You can get high temp grease at any auto parts store. The grease is also good for holding the spacer in place as you manouver the wheel into place between the fork tubes.
oh? :o
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oh? :o
Moly paste and high temp grease are two pretty different animals. I would use what is specified in the manual. You can buy hight temp grease for less than 3 bucks
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I think that is exactly the right amount of lube to use on the splines.... of 496 motorcycles. Put another way, WOW is that a LOT of moly paste! I would wipe that stuff up (it only functions where the splines contact each other (male / female) so all that lube spread everywhere isn't doing anyone any good anyway.
The lips are the lips on of the seal on the wheel hub opposite of the drive. The rubber lip seal there has two lips on it and you should wipe a dab of grease in the valley between the two lips (easy boys!).
The reason the manual recommends high temperature grease is so that when the wheel gets warm (from braking), the grease in the hub and wheel bearings does not run out and get on the brake disc. I usually use wheel bearing grease anywhere inside the hub and just a touch of moly paste right on the seal lips. Be careful not to use too much moly paste though because it will spread outside the wheel (enough to coat a fingernail is too much- just use a trace of the stuff).
Brian
Not sure what they were doing. Probably wanted to make sure they got it. LOL
Im going to clean it off. How would one go about applying int correctly? Just a small about in the teeth of the gear?
Also, what lip are they talking about to apply high temp grease?
Thanks!
Dade22
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I can't find Moly 60 anywhere. Even the Honda shops in town are out of stock. What's an acceptable alternative that I can get form Auto Zone or Checker Auto Parts?
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I can't find Moly 60 anywhere. Even the Honda shops in town are out of stock. What's an acceptable alternative that I can get form Auto Zone or Checker Auto Parts?
Did you ask or just check the shelves? There was none on the shelves, but they brought it out of the back when I asked.
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Did you ask or just check the shelves? There was none on the shelves, but they brought it out of the back when I asked.
Same here. I had to ask the parts guy at the local Honda dealer. He went around back and brought out a dust covered package of the stuff for me. He said that they don't get much call for the stuff but that he had plenty.
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Never used the stuff and the bike is still operational. I know I'm living on the edge, though.
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Never used the stuff and the bike is still operational. I know I'm living on the edge, though.
That's you though, a risk taker living life on the ragged edge. 8)
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I must confess though, that I did buy a tube of the Honda moly some time back after the original thread came out about the potential drive shaft issue. Problem is.....I lost it. It's in my garage somewhere.....I think. I'll probably find it after I do a good garage cleaning or wash the bike (not bloody likely on either account). I've resolved not to buy another tube until I find either that my drive shaft fails due to inadequate lubrication, or the rear wheel tines disintegrate, whichever occurs first. I do use some Valvoline multi-purpose (fortified with an insignificant amount of moly) grease whenever I'm working in the rear wheel area. So far no issues. I've had that grease for 15 years, at least. Must be good stuff as I've had no issues with the four shaftie bikes I've owned in that time.
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I must confess though, that I did buy a tube of the Honda moly some time back after the original thread came out about the potential drive shaft issue. Problem is.....I lost it. It's in my garage somewhere.....I think. I'll probably find it after I do a good garage cleaning or wash the bike (not bloody likely on either account). I've resolved not to buy another tube until I find either that my drive shaft fails due to inadequate lubrication, or the rear wheel tines disintegrate, whichever occurs first. I do use some Valvoline multi-purpose (fortified with an insignificant amount of moly) grease whenever I'm working in the rear wheel area. So far no issues. I've had that grease for 15 years, at least. Must be good stuff as I've had no issues with the four shaftie bikes I've owned in that time.
I used regular grease until I found out about moly 60. I never had any problems but I figured that if there was something better out there that I should go ahead and pay $8 for 3 ounces of the stuff. Better safe than sorry. Oh and the tube should have a warning on it like potato chips.
Sold by weight, not by volume. Contents may will settle during transit and when you open the tube you will look inside and wonder what in the hell happened to the other half of the tube. ;D
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I thought it was only me that got the half full tubes! When I opened my new tube from the sealed package it was literally like 60% full. I thought I got screwed, but it seems that's the norm for this stuff. :o
It'll prolly last me a lifetime anyway.
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When I find mine, I'll check to see if the contents settled. I'll let you know.
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I can't find Moly 60 anywhere. Even the Honda shops in town are out of stock. What's an acceptable alternative that I can get form Auto Zone or Checker Auto Parts?
Pretty good article on shaft drives: http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Shaft.html#Gears (http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Shaft.html#Gears) I can't seem to find an actual specification in the 1400 service manual, just "Apply molybdenum disulfide grease", no real spec on the moly content though :(
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You will not find moly paste in any auto supply shop, or as you have found out, even many motorcycle dealers. Honda 60 moly paste is the easiest of all the brands to find; any Honda dealer can order it and it is something like $10 for a tube (lifetime supply for a motorcycle owner).
The difference between moly grease and moly paste is that moly grease does not contain much moly (usually 3% to 5%) while moly paste will contain at least 60% solid moly. There are other brands (Loctite, Dow Corning, etc.) but they are actually more expensive and usually much harder to find compared with the Honda brand. One other source is McMaster- Carr but you will have to be careful because some of their "high pressure" greases only contain 30% moly, not 50%.
Brian
I can't find Moly 60 anywhere. Even the Honda shops in town are out of stock. What's an acceptable alternative that I can get form Auto Zone or Checker Auto Parts?
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(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f82/BDF08012008/Rearendleak.jpg)
That is a relatively slow leak; some leak badly enough to leave a puddle on the wheel and spill down the tire onto the ground. My leak was caused by a failed inner seal.
Brian
mine looks just like that but much less. inner seal is leaking for sure. how do i know if it will go 500 miles on a ride ?? and "if" i were to chance it, bring lube, brake cleaner, towel, paper towels and painters tape ??
seal is ordered and scheduled for Monday., shoot, is there bearings that cause this too or just the seal ?? under warranty either way
20+ year ase master mechanic, and my bike mechanic saw the inner seal leaking. Definitely not over filled. (not sure how you can overfill it with a big gaping hole with the plug out, lol)
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Yeah, I don't know how much stock I put into the overfilled thought either- the drives simply should not leak by the seals and if they are overfilled, they should leak out of the vent rather than past the seals.
The usual practice is to change the small bearing when the seal is changed. The bearing has to be driven out by the inner race and bearings should not be re-used after being subjected to that. So the bearing is usually replaced just because the old bearing is abused to remove it, no other reason.
When mine started to leak, I simply made a 'diaper' out of three or four paper towels rolled length- wise and wrapped around the hub such that about an inch of paper towel was projecting past the gap where the wheel meets the hub. I taped the paper towel roll (or band) onto the hub so that the wheel could turn inside it. In several hundred miles of further riding there was not enough leakage to soak the paper towels so there certainly was not any appreciable drop in fluid level, although I did check the level to be sure it was not dropping.
Once mine was repaired, I put several hundred miles on it before I would travel any great distance with the bike, just to be sure the leak was cured and to rebuild my confidence. My bike is past 85K miles and has been across the entire US in timed runs with no further problem. So I would recommend getting it repaired and then accumulating some miles, if at all possible when it is hot out as that seems to be when they fail (not a fact, just an impression I have gotten). As I remember, there has been one person who had a second failure of the inner seal and that resulted in an entire new final drive under warranty.
Best of luck with it but the second seal should be the 'charm'.
Brian
mine looks just like that but much less. inner seal is leaking for sure. how do i know if it will go 500 miles on a ride ?? and "if" i were to chance it, bring lube, brake cleaner, towel, paper towels and painters tape ??
seal is ordered and scheduled for Monday., shoot, is there bearings that cause this too or just the seal ?? under warranty either way
20+ year ase master mechanic, and my bike mechanic saw the inner seal leaking. Definitely not over filled. (not sure how you can overfill it with a big gaping hole with the plug out, lol)
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thanks Brian. do you recall if you had a bearing replaced also ?? not sure the bearing and seal people are referring to being replaced, if thats the needle bearing next to the seal. i only ordered the inner seal for the dealer, if they need more parts i can leave the bike there. I go past several other dealers to go to this one, good or bad, time will tell but i think good.
also read about foaming, i have seen vehicles foam up before pulling the cover, but never my bike using Mobil 1. vent has always been clean and dry. no bubbles draining warm either.
thanks,
Joel
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Are you paying for this out of pocket Joel? If so- ouch!
Yes, they replaced the bearing in front on the inner seal on mine at the same time they replaced the seal.
The very best of luck getting this repaired. While it is a known problem on these bikes, I do not believe it is chronic and can usually be taken care of with just a seal replacement.
Let us know how you make out and if there is anything we can help with.
Brian
thanks Brian. do you recall if you had a bearing replaced also ?? not sure the bearing and seal people are referring to being replaced, if thats the needle bearing next to the seal. i only ordered the inner seal for the dealer, if they need more parts i can leave the bike there. I go past several other dealers to go to this one, good or bad, time will tell but i think good.
also read about foaming, i have seen vehicles foam up before pulling the cover, but never my bike using Mobil 1. vent has always been clean and dry. no bubbles draining warm either.
thanks,
Joel
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Warranty repair, just pre ordered the seal so they had it in hand so i could wait for it. If they need more parts, i can leave it there.
Any quick sketch or picture of that diper? Lol. Must not be too creative. Oil didn't hurt the cush drive at all?
Thanks
Joel.
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Yeah, I don't know how much stock I put into the overfilled thought either- the drives simply should not leak by the seals and if they are overfilled, they should leak out of the vent rather than past the seals.
The usual practice is to change the small bearing when the seal is changed. The bearing has to be driven out by the inner race and bearings should not be re-used after being subjected to that. So the bearing is usually replaced just because the old bearing is abused to remove it, no other reason.
When mine started to leak, I simply made a 'diaper' out of three or four paper towels rolled length- wise and wrapped around the hub such that about an inch of paper towel was projecting past the gap where the wheel meets the hub. I taped the paper towel roll (or band) onto the hub so that the wheel could turn inside it. In several hundred miles of further riding there was not enough leakage to soak the paper towels so there certainly was not any appreciable drop in fluid level, although I did check the level to be sure it was not dropping.
Once mine was repaired, I put several hundred miles on it before I would travel any great distance with the bike, just to be sure the leak was cured and to rebuild my confidence. My bike is past 85K miles and has been across the entire US in timed runs with no further problem. So I would recommend getting it repaired and then accumulating some miles, if at all possible when it is hot out as that seems to be when they fail (not a fact, just an impression I have gotten). As I remember, there has been one person who had a second failure of the inner seal and that resulted in an entire new final drive under warranty.
Best of luck with it but the second seal should be the 'charm'.
Brian
Hey Brian, have you thought about marketing that diaper? You could probably sell several hundred here for folks than just want to be ready for the drive shaft mayhem expected. Probably get $45 at least for them. I'll go in with you if I can get the rights to the diaper DVD.
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I am applying for the patent right now- the real tough question is which way do I want to go, roll and wind right or roll and wind left. Opps, perhaps I have given too much away already.
Brian
Hey Brian, have you thought about marketing that diaper? You could probably sell several hundred here for folks than just want to be ready for the drive shaft mayhem expected. Probably get $45 at least for them. I'll go in with you if I can get the rights to the diaper DVD.
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There has been no deterioration of the cush drive that I have noticed. The leak was a long time ago too- years and more than a few thousand miles.
Yeah, the diaper is pretty low tech- just a piece of soft paper to catch the drippins' just like a regular diaper. No need for the stretchy leg openings though as the rear wheel does not crawl. :-)
Brian
Warranty repair, just pre ordered the seal so they had it in hand so i could wait for it. If they need more parts, i can leave it there.
Any quick sketch or picture of that diper? Lol. Must not be too creative. Oil didn't hurt the cush drive at all?
Thanks
Joel.
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well my first update: went on my 400+ ride saturday, slight slinging one time, wiped the wheel with a microfiber, all was good.
Monday, appointment is at 2:30, because of their lunch or something they like that time. (got done with work at 12:15, had to kill time). Asked them to start with the rear leak, and if we needed more parts to let me know if i can take it or need a ride. so i sit, tablet in hand killing more time. hear nothing, then ok Joel its ready. im confused but say ok. Asked what was done. had 4 things plus a vibration thing. None of the parts i ordered last week came in. 1) replace hard bag seal. Nope not done, no parts and not sure its covered. Leaked from day 1 some, not gallons. 2)replace rivets in hard bag that color lid was replaced from crash damage. Done 3)recall, Done. 4)drive seal nope, not even close 5)rotationaly vibration say at 20 coasting, like clean hub teeth or something. Nope, rode and felt. no clue, no answer, no idea. sweet. i wait 2 hours for 4 rivets and a recall, the rest was a mess and i had to diagnose and sell the final drive seal leak.
the drive seal leak drove me nuts and i wasn't pleased in the least bit. The seal ordered last week, never showed and was not correct even after calling back with the correct complete part number.Now the good part, please keep in mind i have seen the leak location and i am a 20year+ ase master mechanic. i am told that the seal leaking is the outer seal and it was ordered. i asked if they were sure because thats not where the leak is. the tech comes out and i have the picture i took on my phone and ask about it. he said yep the outer seal. i asked why ?? he said that is the one that leaks. i asked if mine was leaking and he said he thought so. i asked about the inner seal and was told he didn't know because he *never pulled the wheel to look* i paused for a moment, rather surprised since i had the wheel off in a few minutes Saturday before my ride. I asked how many sealing things are in there, he said three and took the bait. i asked how he knew what to order if he NEVER LOOKED!!! :o he said its always the big one, i pointed to the picture, to the middle of the hub, where the "sleeve tube thing" is and said it was wet there. he seemed surprised and told me it couldn't be its the outer. told him to pull the wheel and lets look, nope, so now he wants to do the inner and outer seal. fine. Next i ask about a bearing that gets replaced with the inner seal usually?? more technician confusion, he has no idea about a bearing they would replace, or why? had nothing to question that more, so no bearing for me at this time.
to top that off they asked if i could get there earlier, i said sure, 1pm?? too early, how about 2 not 2:30 this time. so here is to a friday 2pm appointment. i politely told them that this day was a waste and i was not pleased. and Not to leave my bike stranded for the weekend, cause i would hit the roof.
This might be enough of an arm twist to get me to another deal in the future. wasted well over four hours yesterday, more friday on the way. and if a bearing took out the seal that doesn't get replaced it will be round two. not pleased.
thanks for the ear,
Joel
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Sorry to hear Joel. Sounds like you have the Barney Fifes of MC techs there.
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Yeah, that does sound like an incompetent dealer or at least one that is not interest in the outcome of service for the customer. There is no real way to address that problem that I know of other than to go to another dealer, which I understand is not available to everyone as it can be great distances between dealers.
You could do the work yourself at home just to get it done competently and while I certainly understand that this is a warranty issue, the seals are not very expensive and it might be worth it just to move on. It would not be fair or just but it might be the easiest way for you to deal with the problem...?
Best luck with this.
Brian
<snip>
This might be enough of an arm twist to get me to another deal in the future. wasted well over four hours yesterday, more friday on the way. and if a bearing took out the seal that doesn't get replaced it will be round two. not pleased.
thanks for the ear,
Joel
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JS_Racer....
Sorry your having so much trouble with your dealer. I went to my Suzuki guy and asked where the best Kawi dealer was. He only recommended 2 near by. One 30 min from me and the other 45. The local one here is a joke. They have signs on all the bikes, "DO NOT SIT."
Also, the service dept was worthless. I told them I had the standard 3 year warranty and he insisted that it was an extended warranty.
The dealer I took it too listened to me. I provided all the photos and stuff that Fred H. had on his site. He ordered 2 of everything just in case they ran into trouble.
3 Days later it was done. (they were super busy...3 bikes having valve work/tires).
Keep on them. Also, dont be suprised if you start seeing some type of lube sling from the hub afterward. I had enough molly 60 to do 4 concours's. LOL. I cleaned it up when I put the tires on 2 weeks later.
Good luck!
Dade22
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sigh........ next dealer wants to have the bike for over a week to see what is leaking. i asked if they could pull the wheel and confirm the leak, then order parts and i can return. doesn't sound like an option at this place. grrrr why does this seem so hard to get service. I sent an email and spoke with a manager tuesday about the crap effort monday, have heard nothing since. i have an appointment today, but the bearing was not ordered so no since going is my thought. if they don't have the parts to fix it that they know they need, not worth 5+ hours again.
in two weeks, the bike is going in to my regular guy for the valve check, pivot points lubed, fluids again, front springs and valves, etc..... it will be like new again. Might as well have him fix the leak too out of pocket.
Cant tell you how close i am to buying a lift and turning my own wrenches. In fairness my regular guy is excellent!!! problem is that he can't do Kawasaki warranty repairs. :(
Joel
in twin cities, willing to travel if anyone knows a good dealer for service