Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => The Bike - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: JJFLASH on October 11, 2013, 09:15:49 AM
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I have a 2011 Concours 14. I notice that after changing the oil it seems to take a long time for the low oil pressure light to go out. I see the same behavior on the Ninja 1000. On my other motorcycles after the oil change the low oil pressure goes out in about 10 seconds. I have not measure it but on the Kawi's it seems to take over a minute. I think this is too long for oil pressure to come up. After the first start it behaves normally. I am using Kawi filters and Castrol MC oil 10W-40
Is anyone else seeing this?
I have Googled it and there seems to be a number of post showing this is a common Kawi problem with complaints on the ZX12, ZX10, ZX636, etc.
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a couple seconds is normal for air to be pushed out of the system. Mine turns off after maybe 3 seconds. If it takes a minute I'd say something is not right.
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a couple seconds is normal for air to be pushed out of the system. Mine turns off after maybe 3 seconds. If it takes a minute I'd say something is not right.
+1 Mine goes out right away. I'd be concerned if it took a minute.
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Yeah, I agree with dose guys- something is wrong if it takes one Earth minute to pressurize the system enough to put out the oil warning light.
You are either not flowing enough oil (clogged pick up screen, worn oil pump, cracked pick-up allowing air into the oil, etc.) or the oil light sensor is faulty. I would suggest putting an actual pressure gauge on the oil galleys (a standard test shown in the service manual) to check the engine's oil pressure.
Brian
I have a 2011 Concours 14. I notice that after changing the oil it seems to take a long time for the low oil pressure light to go out. I see the same behavior on the Ninja 1000. On my other motorcycles after the oil change the low oil pressure goes out in about 10 seconds. I have not measure it but on the Kawi's it seems to take over a minute. I think this is too long for oil pressure to come up. After the first start it behaves normally. I am using Kawi filters and Castrol MC oil 10W-40
Is anyone else seeing this?
I have Googled it and there seems to be a number of post showing this is a common Kawi problem with complaints on the ZX12, ZX10, ZX636, etc.
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Yeah, I agree with dose guys- something is wrong if it takes one Earth minute to pressurize the system enough to put out the oil warning light.
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Other types of minutes are more acceptable?
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Other types of minutes are more acceptable?
On Saturn a day is ~11 Earth hours. So yes, a Saturn minute would be more acceptable.
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Yes. This is the Internet so of course I do not know where the writer is: supposing he is on the Sun, for example, and his 'minutes' would only 4 Earth seconds long- perfectly acceptable IMO. Of course the oil would be quite thin (actually it would be a gas, in oh so many ways) so that pressurization period would be extremely acceptable.
Brian
Other types of minutes are more acceptable?
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Yep, he's absolutely :nuts: .....Brian, that is.
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I like you guys... it makes me feel better to know I'm not the ONLY one here who is broken in the brain parts.
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Hey, you are getting the filtered version- I get the raw feed straight from the voices....
A few weeks ago, I saw a gentleman being interviewed on some TV show or other (not actively watching it at the time, just happened along at exactly the wrong moment) and he was talking about his testicular sac (his words) had swollen until it weighed 132 lbs. That is the truth. Now here comes the unusual part (you knew there had to be an unusual part, right?): he was having difficulty or could no longer do the following: walk, sit, ride in a car, stand, etc. etc. ad nauseum WHEN SUDDENLY he conjured up a solution: he put a 'hoodie' on upside down and put.... that heavy thing in the head pocket. While I applaud the gentleman for ingenuity and making use of the tools at hand, I cannot help but wonder how he can do such a thing because I would think the arm- holes would be far too small for the upper thigh area and it would cut off the blood flow to both legs. And, of course, I was wondering which way he was wearing the hoodie: 'face hole' (so to speak) facing forward or backwards? I mean, is there a 'right' way to wear a hoodie upside down like that?
So you folks go ahead and think I am a little strange 'cause in a world where THAT 1) happened and 2) was on TV during some type of interview show, I think I am the closest thing to well grounded that may actually exist. Well, me and Kirby of course.
Brian
I like you guys... it makes me feel better to know I'm not the ONLY one here who is broken in the brain parts.
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Hey, you are getting the filtered version- I get the raw feed straight from the voices....
A few weeks ago, I saw a gentleman being interviewed on some TV show or other (not actively watching it at the time, just happened along at exactly the wrong moment) and he was talking about his testicular sac (his words) had swollen until it weighed 132 lbs. That is the truth. Now here comes the unusual part (you knew there had to be an unusual part, right?): he was having difficulty or could no longer do the following: walk, sit, ride in a car, stand, etc. etc. ad nauseum WHEN SUDDENLY he conjured up a solution: he put a 'hoodie' on upside down and put.... that heavy thing in the head pocket. While I applaud the gentleman for ingenuity and making use of the tools at hand, I cannot help but wonder how he can do such a thing because I would think the arm- holes would be far too small for the upper thigh area and it would cut off the blood flow to both legs. And, of course, I was wondering which way he was wearing the hoodie: 'face hole' (so to speak) facing forward or backwards? I mean, is there a 'right' way to wear a hoodie upside down like that?
So you folks go ahead and think I am a little strange 'cause in a world where THAT 1) happened and 2) was on TV during some type of interview show, I think I am the closest thing to well grounded that may actually exist. Well, me and Kirby of course.
Brian
:rotflmao:
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Yeah, you think that is funny? Check this out: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/man-surgery-134-pound-scrotum/story?id=19091787 (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/man-surgery-134-pound-scrotum/story?id=19091787)
And to finish the story, apparently he puts the hoodie on with the face hole facing forward, and rests his.... stuff.... on a milk crate when sitting down.
Besides all that, exactly how does one weigh.... that? Just step up on my scale sir ain't gonna' work. Did they put a force gauge on the strings of his hoodie and pull until he screamed, at which point the gauge said 134 lb.f.? What did the surgeon say that evening when his / her spouse asked 'Anything new at work today?' So many questions, so little time....
And you people think I am a little 'off'. Sure.
Brian
:rotflmao:
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If the cam chain stops rattling after a few seconds you have oil pressure.
Change the pressure switch.
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If the cam chain stops rattling after a few seconds you have oil pressure.
Change the pressure switch.
:rotflmao: I love a good scientific test.
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Brian, you need to finish those meds that you're on.. I really think that will help.
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Wheel barrows hold beer bellies.
This guy's would prob need risers.
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Brian, you need to finish those meds that you're on.. I really think that will help.
My theory is: he quit too soon.
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I have a 2011 Concours 14. I notice that after changing the oil it seems to take a long time for the low oil pressure light to go out. I see the same behavior on the Ninja 1000. On my other motorcycles after the oil change the low oil pressure goes out in about 10 seconds. I have not measure it but on the Kawi's it seems to take over a minute. I think this is too long for oil pressure to come up. After the first start it behaves normally. I am using Kawi filters and Castrol MC oil 10W-40
Is anyone else seeing this?
I have Googled it and there seems to be a number of post showing this is a common Kawi problem with complaints on the ZX12, ZX10, ZX636, etc.
I have a 2011 C14 and had a 2011 N1k and have a 2012 N1k and the oil light goes out within a second or two after an oil change. I don't let it drain for an extended period. I'm guessing you do and the oil pump takes awhile to prime when dry.
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could crank it and hit the kill switch as soon as it starts, do that a few times. thats what i do after the filter change, my light is on a second or two after the few short cranks.
i have heard of cracking the filter after starting to purge air on a kawi from a motorcycle mechanic.
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I've owned Kawis since 1995 and haven't done that once. Never had any issues with the oil pressure or filters. Have you tried that on a modern Kawi with a spin on filter or any kind of filter for that matter? If not, I'd like to see that video...... :popcorn: ;)
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I always put some oil in the filter before installing it. The smear some on the seal too.
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I always put some oil in the filter before installing it. The smear some on the seal too.
I do the same. I put in enough oil to just wet the element. Not so much that oil runs out when installing on the bike.
This has cut oil light times down. I would never leave an motor I liked to run for a earth minute with and indication of no oil pressure.
Makes me wonder of Kawasaki is having trouble with oil pump tolerances again.
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My light (oil light) is only on for a second or two. I don't think that Kwak has an issue with this engine. It's basically bullet proof. Of all things that have happened to this model.....engine issues ain't one of them. There may be one offs but it isn't something that's come up on the radar here.
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Back in 1970 I worked at a Gulf service station , pumped gas ( remember THAT) and did oil changes and grease jobs, I was 16 and a motorhead, had a 1964 corvette
327, that I helped rebuild (far from stock)
Father and son were the owners and the son went thru mechanic school at General Motors and told me to put oil in the filter first, before install. I always have.
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Sure, now it is a standard phrase but just a few days ago someone using that phrase was subject to ridicule and the idea that a medication adjustment was needed.
Sheesh! ;D
Brian
I do the same. I put in enough oil to just wet the element. Not so much that oil runs out when installing on the bike.
This has cut oil light times down. I would never leave an motor I liked to run for a earth minute with and indication of no oil pressure.
Makes me wonder of Kawasaki is having trouble with oil pump tolerances again.
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Fine and well but still anecdotal information at best. Nothing wrong with filling an oil filter before putting it on, and in a vertical installation it certainly would re- pressurize the oil galleys. But there is no need to do this and it is not very effective in horizontal oil filter installations anyway; if you really do fill the oil filter, most of the oil is going to run out of it before it is screwed all the way (easy boys!) on, just like the old one leaked like a sieve when it was being unscrewed.
All the way back to the origin of this thread; if an engine that uses a pressurized lubrication system cannot pressurize in far less than one minute (Earth minute) then something is wrong and that engine should be checked post haste by a competent technician, using applicable tools, starting with a pressure gauge.
Brian
Back in 1970 I worked at a Gulf service station , pumped gas ( remember THAT) and did oil changes and grease jobs, I was 16 and a motorhead, had a 1964 corvette
327, that I helped rebuild (far from stock)
Father and son were the owners and the son went thru mechanic school at General Motors and told me to put oil in the filter first, before install. I always have.
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Sure, now it is a standard phrase but just a few days ago someone using that phrase was subject to ridicule and the idea that a medication adjustment was needed.
Sheesh! ;D
Brian
There's nothing wrong with taking meds as required...no ridicule intended.....yeah right... :rotflmao:
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I have a 2011 Concours 14. I notice that after changing the oil it seems to take a long time for the low oil pressure light to go out. I see the same behavior on the Ninja 1000. On my other motorcycles after the oil change the low oil pressure goes out in about 10 seconds. I have not measure it but on the Kawi's it seems to take over a minute. I think this is too long for oil pressure to come up. After the first start it behaves normally. I am using Kawi filters and Castrol MC oil 10W-40
Is anyone else seeing this?
I have Googled it and there seems to be a number of post showing this is a common Kawi problem with complaints on the ZX12, ZX10, ZX636, etc.
I changed the oil in both the Concours and Ninja 1000 today. This time I "pre-filled" the oil filters (OEM) before installation and the oil pressure light went out on the first start within seconds. Problem solved.
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So roughly how much did you get into the filter without it spilling as you tightened it up?
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75% to 90% of engine wear happens during start up , I have three diesel's that take two oil filters and each one is three times the size of my large Cummins oil filters , so I don't need to fill them up first ? Yeah right !
I soak my FOB in scotch every night , that way no oxygen no corrosion RIGHT!
http://www.astm.org/DIGITAL_LIBRARY/MNL/PAGES/MNL11465M.htm (http://www.astm.org/DIGITAL_LIBRARY/MNL/PAGES/MNL11465M.htm)
http://autorepair.about.com/od/regularmaintenance/ss/oil_change_5.htm (http://autorepair.about.com/od/regularmaintenance/ss/oil_change_5.htm)
http://www.lightplane-maintenance.com/Oil_LPM_0705.html (http://www.lightplane-maintenance.com/Oil_LPM_0705.html)
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If the light won't go out, sometimes you have to "burp" the filter because it gets an air bubble that doesn't want to purge. I haven't had this on the Connie yet, but it's happened on my Z1000 several times. To burp it, unseat the filter just a little, then start the bike and as soon as oil starts coming out of the filter screw it on, turn off the bike and tighten the filter. Unlike what someone said earlier you can fill the filter before putting it back on and you don't lose all the oil from it while putting it on even though it's horizontal, in fact you lose very little. At least that's been my experience. Have you ever tried to drain a filter after taking it off? All that really drains out is what's right in the center channel; the oil inside the filter takes time to work it's way out. To prime the filter you need to fill the filter and let it set for a few minutes. As the oil gets "absorbed" keep putting more in until it's full. Some people say it helps.
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75% to 90% of engine wear happens during start up , I have three diesel's that take two oil filters and each one is three times the size of my large Cummins oil filters , so I don't need to fill them up first ? Yeah right ! ..................
you think that is remotely the same as a small ass horizontal filter ?? :banghead:
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That is not quite right- 90% of an engine's wear occurs during the first three minutes, when the oil is too cold to lubricate correctly, not because of a lack of oil or oil pressurization.
If you have vertical filters, and they are huge, then sure, it would make sense to fill them beforehand so the engine doesn't have to do take that amount of time.
On a small, horizontal filter I just do not think it makes any difference. With a new, empty filter, the oil warning light goes out in perhaps 3 or 4 seconds. Besides that, there is oil in each of the main and con rod bearings already, in fact the engine is very well lubricated everywhere for those first few seconds.
Brian
75% to 90% of engine wear happens during start up , I have three diesel's that take two oil filters and each one is three times the size of my large Cummins oil filters , so I don't need to fill them up first ? Yeah right !
I soak my FOB in scotch every night , that way no oxygen no corrosion RIGHT!
http://www.astm.org/DIGITAL_LIBRARY/MNL/PAGES/MNL11465M.htm (http://www.astm.org/DIGITAL_LIBRARY/MNL/PAGES/MNL11465M.htm)
http://autorepair.about.com/od/regularmaintenance/ss/oil_change_5.htm (http://autorepair.about.com/od/regularmaintenance/ss/oil_change_5.htm)
http://www.lightplane-maintenance.com/Oil_LPM_0705.html (http://www.lightplane-maintenance.com/Oil_LPM_0705.html)
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Brian, if you continue to use logic, I'm going to have to lock this thread down.
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If you are filling an oil filter, turning it sideways and not much oil is leaking out.... you are not filling it. It sounds like you are filling the center well of the filter and not giving it time to saturate through to the outside of the can. A new filter, full of oil, will pour oil out of it when put on the engine sideways just as an old filter pours oil out of it when it is being taken off.
Brian
If the light won't go out, sometimes you have to "burp" the filter because it gets an air bubble that doesn't want to purge. I haven't had this on the Connie yet, but it's happened on my Z1000 several times. To burp it, unseat the filter just a little, then start the bike and as soon as oil starts coming out of the filter screw it on, turn off the bike and tighten the filter. Unlike what someone said earlier you can fill the filter before putting it back on and you don't lose all the oil from it while putting it on even though it's horizontal, in fact you lose very little. At least that's been my experience. Have you ever tried to drain a filter after taking it off? All that really drains out is what's right in the center channel; the oil inside the filter takes time to work it's way out. To prime the filter you need to fill the filter and let it set for a few minutes. As the oil gets "absorbed" keep putting more in until it's full. Some people say it helps.
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Hey, just trying to use the last few hundred years of accumulated knowledge to fight the darkness. But the darkness has a lot of inertia and for some reason, people really like the darkness.
Brian
Brian, if you continue to use logic, I'm going to have to lock this thread down.
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Hey, just trying to use the last few hundred years of accumulated knowledge to fight the darkness. But the darkness has a lot of inertia and for some reason, people really like the darkness.
Brian
Well, it is almost Halloween after all.
(http://www.2kgames.com/thedarkness/images/moonlogo_2.jpg)
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So roughly how much did you get into the filter without it spilling as you tightened it up?
About 2/3 full. The filter medium acts like a sponge. Just threaded it on with literally no loss of oil. Wouldn't have believed it if hadn't seen it with my own eyes. Surprising easy to do.
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That is not quite right- 90% of an engine's wear occurs during the first three minutes, when the oil is too cold to lubricate correctly, not because of a lack of oil or oil pressurization.
If you have vertical filters, and they are huge, then sure, it would make sense to fill them beforehand so the engine doesn't have to do take that amount of time.
On a small, horizontal filter I just do not think it makes any difference. With a new, empty filter, the oil warning light goes out in perhaps 3 or 4 seconds. Besides that, there is oil in each of the main and con rod bearings already, in fact the engine is very well lubricated everywhere for those first few seconds.
Brian
There probably is oil the bearings but I THINK you need oil pressure to provide a lubicating layer between the moving parts. Not an expert here
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If you are filling an oil filter, turning it sideways and not much oil is leaking out.... you are not filling it. It sounds like you are filling the center well of the filter and not giving it time to saturate through to the outside of the can. A new filter, full of oil, will pour oil out of it when put on the engine sideways just as an old filter pours oil out of it when it is being taken off.
Brian
Surprising, that does not seem to be the case. Can't tell you why but it seems to work.
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Oil pressurization is not what makes a hydrodynamic bearing, such as main crankshaft or connecting rob bearings work. What makes the bearing work is the rotation of the shaft; the best analogy I ever heard is that the shaft 'water skiis' on the oil. As the shaft rotates, it shears its way through a layer of oil, and the shear forces all balance and are evenly distributed around the shaft. But when you push sideways on the shaft and move it from the center of the bearing housing, the shear forces where the shaft gets closer to the outer housing skyrocket; this is what supports a crankshaft in a running engine.
A lot of people seem to think that something like a crankshaft or connecting rod bearing touches the shaft only occasionally, only on start- up, etc., etc. but in fact, the shaft virtually never touches the bearing shells. Bearings are made out of lead, aluminum and copper generally and you can easily scrape the bearing material out of the bearing shell with a pocket knife. Such a bearing would not last even a few revolutions of the main shaft if it were not coated with oil.
Pressurizing galleys to feed main and con rod bearings merely makes sure the gap is full of oil and provides enough oil flow through the bearings to cool them. Note that small, one cylinder engines have no pressurized oiling systems and yet function very well with hydrodynamic bearings. So getting oil to each bearing, under pressure, is important but not crucial nor is it particularly time critical regarding the difference between a few seconds or perhaps twice that amount of time.
Brian
There probably is oil the bearings but I THINK you need oil pressure to provide a lubicating layer between the moving parts. Not an expert here
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Just my opinion but the filter is not full of oil. If you are pouring oil into the center hole, that void will fill and the filter material will begin to wick up oil but that is not the same as filling the filter.
If you were to fill a new oil filter, leave it overnight (open side up of course), I think the next day you would find the level of oil inside way down in the filter. It would take several such iterations to truly fill the filter. Either that or you would have to actually force oil through the filter to fill it with some type of oil pump and filter mounting device.
And finally when the filter really was full, when you turned it sideways it would pour oil out just as a used (but really full) oil filter does when you unscrew it.
But as with so many things, if putting some oil in your oil filters makes you happy, by all means go for it. It will not cause any damage or problems and let's face it, making the owner happy is the real job of the motorcycle and all its accouterments, right?
Brian
Surprising, that does not seem to be the case. Can't tell you why but it seems to work.
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Hey, just trying to use the last few hundred years of accumulated knowledge to fight the darkness. But the darkness has a lot of inertia and for some reason, people really like the darkness.
Brian
Darkness, darkness,
Long and lonesome,
Ease the day that brings me pain.
I have felt the edge of sadness,
I have known the depth of fear.
Darkness, darkness, be my blanket,
Cover me with the endless night,
Take away, take away the pain of knowing,
Fill the emptiness of right now,
Emptiness of right now, now, now
Emptiness of ri-ight now.
Jesse Colin Young
emphasis added
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I recall in the 80s seeing ads in the hotrod mags for a pre-oiler that used an electric motor to pressurize the oil a few seconds prior to starting. Was claimed to make an engine last forever. I almost bought one for my built Camaro.
As for the delayed oil light I wonder what filters are being used. I remember reading that Purolator recommends against using their Pure One filters in motorcycles, I think because of the less powerful oil pumps not handling the finer filter material.
In that case maybe pre-filling filters might help. Also maybe if the engine has been idle for several weeks prior to the oil change.
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In that case maybe pre-filling filters might help. Also maybe if the engine has been idle for several weeks prior to the oil change.
Typically, you should ride the bike for 20+ minutes to get the oil up to temp, immediately prior to changing the oil.
Exception: Bike has been sitting for years, or there was an incident to contaminate the oil, such as coolant getting in the oil. (in that case I'd change the oil before starting the engine)
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Back about 1975, my dad and I were changing oil in all our vehicles. We had drained them all and replaced the filters and drain plugs. My older sister came out of the house on one of here rants, jumped in moms Olds Delta 88 and took off. My dad asked me if I put oil in it yet. I shook my head no as I was finishing pouring in the last quart into his Mustang. He grabbed four quarts, jumped in his car and took off after her. She was especially miffed about something and refused to pull over while dad was honking and waving at her. She finally stopped when she pulled into her friends driveway. The car made this 3.5 mile trip on no oil and seemingly suffered no ill effects. My sister on the other hand had to endure a loud lengthly lecture about idiot lights and heeding him when he is honking and yelling to pull over. She also got grounded from driving a few weeks.
We kept that car for several more years and it never had a problem due to running it out of oil.
Matt
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Typically, you should ride the bike for 20+ minutes to get the oil up to temp, immediately prior to changing the oil.
Exception: Bike has been sitting for years, or there was an incident to contaminate the oil, such as coolant getting in the oil. (in that case I'd change the oil before starting the engine)
+1 on draining the oil when its hot. mat
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If you fill the filter about 2/3rds full, very little spills out. I work on big trucks for a living, and filling oil filters first is a must. Three filters per engine equals 9 quarts of oil. :o