Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: ZG on June 26, 2013, 08:34:01 PM
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:-\
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I thought this has been discussed before. There is no happy way to make a ZX motor shaft drive or make a C14 chain drive.
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I bet You could build a C14 motor to ZX specs with a sourced ZX head, and pistons. Then You would have to scrounge up the ZX wiring harness, and ECM. Could be done, if someone just wants to see if they can do it. Definitely wouldn't be cost effective.
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"ZG" and "cost effective" together make an oxymoron.
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No, but a turbo will.
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"ZG" and "cost effective" together make an oxymoron.
;) ;D
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No, but a turbo will.
I was thinking the ZX14 or ZX14R route might be a little more long term reliable though right? Also I think I read up about somebody that turbo'd theirs and it caused some damage... :-\
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I bet You could build a C14 motor to ZX specs with a sourced ZX head, and pistons. Then You would have to scrounge up the ZX wiring harness, and ECM. Could be done, if someone just wants to see if they can do it. Definitely wouldn't be cost effective.
Hmmm... :popcorn:
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I thought this has been discussed before. There is no happy way to make a ZX motor shaft drive or make a C14 chain drive.
Do you have the link MP?
How about an unhappy way, brute force $? :-\
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Turbo is the way to go, just keep the boost down. As $$$$$$$ isn't the issue I would have an engine builder spec out the internals. Do a turbo search as we have few cool threads describing all the details. I wanna say it's spazonaconcours or something similar.
An easier way to boost performance is paint her Silverdammit ;D
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http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=5778.0 (http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=5778.0)
Here ya go.
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Jay, call Muzzy. They've been making gofast kaws for a long time.
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Be easier to add luggage and bar risers to the ZX, then modify a suitable windscreen.
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"ZG" and "cost effective" together make an oxymoron.
Did he just call ZG a stupid cow? :stirpot:
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I don't know the ZX14 motor but on the GPZ1000/GTR1000 the only difference was a bolt on bevel drive that connected to the shaft.
On the GPZ it was a straight drive with a sprocket for the chain and a chain/sprocket cover.
Could be the same for the ZX14/ZG14.
However, chances are the gearbox ratios will be different and there are bound to be other differences.
Whassup ZG,.... need a new project? ::)
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Did he just call ZG a stupid cow? :stirpot:
Good thing the kow isn't into shoes :o
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Be easier to add luggage and bar risers to the ZX, then modify a suitable windscreen.
Na, I wouldn't want to loose all the comfort features, ergo's, and shaft drive of the C14.
Everyone always says the C14 motor is just a de-tuned ZX14 motor, so I'm trying to understand why it wouldn't work and what all it would take to make it work... :-\
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Good thing the kow isn't into shoes :o
Mama is though... :(
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Whassup ZG,.... need a new project? ::)
Always... ;D
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ECU for sure and if it talks to the kipass computer that to.
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ECU for sure and if it talks to the kipass computer that to.
Good point on the Kipass, but there must be a way to make that work too right?
Engine block is same right?
I know Chet is running ZX14 TB's, so I know those will work...
I have a PCV so can't that be reprogrammed to work?
What else?
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It would be easier to change the ERGOs on a ZX14 than to make a C14 as powerful as a ZX.
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It would be easier to change the ERGOs on a ZX14 than to make a C14 as powerful as a ZX.
That's debatable MP, I can't imagine trying to fit shaft drive on a ZX14... :o
Regardless, I'm not interested in going that route, I'm interested in if a ZX14 motor etc can be fitted in a C14 and if not why or what all would need to by modified? :-\
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:-\
Why, did you find a gold ZX14 engine?
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Why, did you find a gold ZX14 engine?
:rotflmao: :thumbs:
Not gold, but you can pick up a ZX14 motor pretty cheap... ;)
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Did he just call ZG a stupid cow? :stirpot:
:rotflmao:
I told you to bring that cash farm you got over to my garage, I'll take care of spending it for you. Imagine the brew set-up we could have.
And no, you cannot put a ZX14 motor in a C14. Somebody would have already posted that all over the internet.
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d148/pakbowl420/Beer%20and%20Wine/Image43.jpg) (http://media.photobucket.com/user/pakbowl420/media/Beer%20and%20Wine/Image43.jpg.html)
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Some info to help start this project:
Head gasket: ZX/ZG both use 11004-0059
Piston pin: ZX/ZG both use 13002-0010
Connecting rod: ZX/ZG both use 13251-025-JJ
Cam chain: ZX/ZG both use 92057-0109
Crankshaft: ZX - 13031-0098; ZG - 13031-0094
Cylinder head: ZX - 11008-0125; ZG - 11008-0194
Been thinking about the top-end swap for a while. It really looks doable from a quick survey. The details would have to be worked-out as the project progressed.
I wouldn't touch the ECU, or anything electric. Let the plugs fire ZG style - without a Power Commander at first.
The ZX throttle bodies or injectors may be needed.
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Be easier to add luggage and bar risers to the ZX, then modify a suitable windscreen.
And it will still lack shaft drive, tire sensors, variable valve timing, extra computer stuff, Kipass, center stand, heated grips, electronic windshield, etc, etc.
If you really want more power after changing the exhaust (and that means THE EXHAUST SYSTEM, not the muffler) and applying the Ghul flash, then it is time for turbo or something. Trying to replace an engine with a nearly identical engine is too little return for the expense and tons of effort.
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Everyone always says the C14 motor is just a de-tuned ZX14 motor
It is not "DE-tuned" it is designed for different parameters- like comfort, higher reliability, less maintenance, shifting of torque curve to something more touring friendly, less vibration, less noise, etc.
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:rotflmao:
I told you to bring that cash farm you got over to my garage, I'll take care of spending it for you. Imagine the brew set-up we could have.
;D :chugbeer:
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Some info to help start this project:
Head gasket: ZX/ZG both use 11004-0059
Piston pin: ZX/ZG both use 13002-0010
Connecting rod: ZX/ZG both use 13251-025-JJ
Cam chain: ZX/ZG both use 92057-0109
Crankshaft: ZX - 13031-0098; ZG - 13031-0094
Cylinder head: ZX - 11008-0125; ZG - 11008-0194
Been thinking about the top-end swap for a while. It really looks doable from a quick survey. The details would have to be worked-out as the project progressed.
I wouldn't touch the ECU, or anything electric. Let the plugs fire ZG style - without a Power Commander at first.
The ZX throttle bodies or injectors may be needed.
Nice, thanks MC! :chugbeer:
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Trying to replace an engine with a nearly identical engine is too little return for the expense and tons of effort.
I wouldn't call 200 BHP, 186mph top speed, 0-60 in 2.5 secs "little return" Max... ::)
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Be easier to add luggage and bar risers to the ZX, then modify a suitable windscreen.
And it will still lack shaft drive, tire sensors, extra computer stuff, Kipass, center stand, etc, etc.
+1 Max, agreed. :thumbs:
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I wouldn't call 200 BHP, 186mph top speed, 0-60 in 2.5 secs "little return" Max... ::)
I guess that depends on who you ask. Especially if you are comparing to a C14 that already has a replacement exhaust and Ghul flash or PCV. And peak HP does not describe a whole power curve.
* The bike is heavier and the shaft drive will eat more power.
* You will NOT end up with 0-60 in 2.5 seconds with a ZX engine on a C14.
* The aerodynamics will be different, limiting speed on the C14 (and top speed is a "who cares" for most non-track drivers, anyway).
The main advantage of trying to put a ZX14 engine in a C14 [instead of a turbo] would be that it might be possible to do without any fabrication or custom parts (if the transmission would bolt up to it). Most of the difference remaining between the two would be the head and intake. The bore/stroke is already the same, so at most, a head swap would make more sense.
Again, I am guessing it would cheaper and more effective to add a turbo to a C14...
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Again, I am guessing it would cheaper and more effective to add a turbo to a C14...
I'm not looking for the "cheaper" option Max, this is a toy not an electric car... ::)
I don't really want all the potential damage a turbo can do over time, I'm more thinking the ZX14 motor etc would be big bang for the buck and could also be Kawi reliable... :-\
Plus it sounds like uncharted territory as far as I can tell so far, which I also like doing. ;) ;D
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+1 on contacting Muzzy's. If anyone can do it, they can.
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The engine case are suspiciously looking very similar and possibly interchangeable as well though the part numbers do not match.
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I don't really want all the potential damage a turbo can do over time, I'm more thinking the ZX14 motor etc would be big bang for the buck and could also be Kawi reliable... :-\
Turbocharging/supercharging can be perfectly safe and place no more stress on the system than what Kawasaki did to squeeze more power. It just depends on how much boost. It is amazing what just a few pounds can do. Yes, some people will throw 8 or 10 pounds and blow an engine apart. Higher boosts require a much stronger engine.
(Yes, I slapped a supercharger on my second car and it was quite impressive... ran only like 4 lbs, I think)
Plus it sounds like uncharted territory as far as I can tell so far, which I also like doing. ;) ;D
Not sure about that. We have at least two threads about turbos. Yet I don't recall ANYONE trying to change a C14 engine into a ZX14.
But if you are on that track- consider a head swap only, since anything further will probably be a waste of time/money. Head to include at least throttle bodies... not sure what you can or can't do with the intake manifold... probably not much.
Are the injectors the same?
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Not sure about that. We have at least two threads about turbos. Yet I don't recall ANYONE trying to change a C14 engine into a ZX14.
Isn't that exactly what I said, I don't want to go the turbo route, the ZX14 motor is uncharted territory... :nuts:
anything further will probably be a waste of time/money.
And your point is what... ::)
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Isn't that exactly what I said, I don't want to go the turbo route, the ZX14 motor is uncharted territory... :nuts:
Oh- you WANT uncharted territory. Sorry, that is backwards to what I thought :)
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Yes, the biggest difference between the ZX 14 and C-14 engines is going to be the bevel drive for the driveshaft. Everything else should fit / work in a C-14 frame, more or less. The ECU will also probably be a problem as it may not dovetail into KiPass but that one can be worked around I think by just removing KiPass entirely from the system.
If the bevel gear housing simply bolts onto an area already machined into a ZX, it should be quite doable and may even be easy. It might require a different output shaft though which may require the crankcase halves to be split. More likely Kawasaki changed the area where the bevel gear housing mounts and that is going to be the biggest difficulty I think. At that point, you are either going to need substantial machining and adaptation or will have to convert a C-14 over to a chain drive.
As someone already said, it is probably quite do- able to take all the engine internals that are different and swap the ZX parts into a C-14 engine. There will be a few things to deal with such as the variable valve timing hydraulic circuit but it should be relatively straightforward to simply block that off and you won't be using the sensors on that system anyway with the ZX 14 ECU.
I do have to say though that it probably is not worth it regarding cost and effort vs. final performance. You might be better off tweaking a C-14 engine, perhaps even with aftermarket ZX 14 parts such as pistons (assuming they fit the combustion chamber of a C-14 head) but still, lots of work and money for what I think are going to be marginal gains.
I think in the end it really would be easier to throw some custom body work onto a ZX, an automatic chain oiler for chain longevity, and add in an electric windshield than it would be to install a ZX 14 engine in a C-14 chassis.
Brian
I don't know the ZX14 motor but on the GPZ1000/GTR1000 the only difference was a bolt on bevel drive that connected to the shaft.
On the GPZ it was a straight drive with a sprocket for the chain and a chain/sprocket cover.
Could be the same for the ZX14/ZG14.
However, chances are the gearbox ratios will be different and there are bound to be other differences.
Whassup ZG,.... need a new project? ::)
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Some good info guys, keep it coming, thanks! :popcorn:
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Why don't you go for a ride ...
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Why don't you go for a ride ...
That doesn't cost as much!!!
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Why don't you go for a ride ...
+10
;D
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That doesn't cost as much!!!
It could if you pave the roads in gold.
:finger_fing11:
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Why don't you go for a ride ...
I wish, no riding for me today CD, although I did enjoy riding my Gixxer to the office this morning and back home, just got home from work, quarter end today... :(
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It could if you pave the roads in gold.
:finger_fing11:
Follow the yellow brick road, follow the yellow brick road... ;D
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I was thinking of touring on a ZX14. Think a C14 motor could swap into it? ;D
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I was thinking of touring on a ZX14. Think a C14 motor could swap into it? ;D
Yep, but not the protection of the KP... ;) ;D
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Just for the sake of spreading information: I posted a bit on this over on the COG forum ( I was trolling turbo threads. :) ). I did a lot of research on this when I had my motor apart, so I figured I would share.
http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,44350.30.html (http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,44350.30.html)
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Just for the sake of spreading information: I posted a bit on this over on the COG forum ( I was trolling turbo threads. :) ). I did a lot of research on this when I had my motor apart, so I figured I would share.
http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,44350.30.html (http://forum.cog-online.org/index.php/topic,44350.30.html)
Oh. I didn't realize ZG was posting all the same topics on COG as on here. And he also posted it there FIRST. Hmm.
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Off with his head.
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Off with his head.
...not my intended result there.... but pretty funny response. :)
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Off with his head.
Someone call for a sword? ;)
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...not my intended result there.... but pretty funny response. :)
No worries, ZG knows I just joshin' him.
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No worries, ZG knows I just joshin' him.
yeah, but the guy with the sword's not.
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Oh. I didn't realize ZG was posting all the same topics on COG as on here. And he also posted it there FIRST. Hmm.
Yep, I go to bed with many forums, I'm a straight up post slut, create a forum and I'll post on it! ;) ;D
No worries, ZG knows I just joshin' him.
We're good MP no worries at all bro! :grouphug: :chugbeer:
Someone call for a sword? ;)
:o (http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/hiding.gif) (http://s1200.photobucket.com/user/jaywilcox/media/hiding.gif.html) (http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb336/jaywilcox/swiqe.gif) (http://s1200.photobucket.com/user/jaywilcox/media/swiqe.gif.html)
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:popcorn:
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ZG knows I'm just funnin... Now where's my sharpening stone? ;D
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ZG knows I'm just funnin... Now where's my sharpening stone? ;D
;D :grouphug: :chugbeer:
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Just wait for the next C14, I am sure it will probably have the ZX14 engine. Then you would've done a bunch of work for nothing. Of course if you can wring your current configuration of all its potential, I would really like to see that. :popcorn:
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Being contray (as usual), why/what leads you down the turbo=destruction road? Properly built, low/mid boost and you have a bullet proof motor. And IMO must sexier/exotic than a stocl ZX motor.
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Being contray (as usual), why/what leads you down the turbo=destruction road? Properly built, low/mid boost and you have a bullet proof motor.
I already told him that...
"Turbocharging/supercharging can be perfectly safe and place no more stress on the system than what Kawasaki did to squeeze more power. It just depends on how much boost. It is amazing what just a few pounds can do. Yes, some people will throw 8 or 10 pounds and blow an engine apart. Higher boosts require a much stronger engine."
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I already told him that...
"Turbocharging/supercharging can be perfectly safe and place no more stress on the system than what Kawasaki did to squeeze more power. It just depends on how much boost. It is amazing what just a few pounds can do. Yes, some people will throw 8 or 10 pounds and blow an engine apart. Higher boosts require a much stronger engine."
The motor is plenty strong enough for 8-10lbs... probably a lot more. It's the fuel system that has to be reinforced. As someone posted in the other thread, you tuning window just gets smaller and smaller as the boost goes up.
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And IMO must sexier/exotic than a stocl ZX motor.
Sadly, only 2 people only ever noticed the turbo on my bike without it being pointed out to them. One was the guy in the burnout box after my 4th pass ("I thought I heard something funny...."), and some random guy eyeballing the bike in a bookstore parking lot. Thousands of miles, several bike meets, and a dozen cities, and almost no one notices. It's amazing how stealth the whole set-up is. Hell, the guy at tech didn't even notice it... he saw the hard bags and the one-piece suit and just shook his head and gave me my sticker. HA!
It takes the exotic right out of it.
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Exotic happens at speed ;) I'm sure a filter can be had to amplify the existance of the turbo for show but stealth was a part of yer goal, right?
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Does this kit sound like a good starting point? Seems to be many similarities with the ZX-14 with regards to the intake/frame, oiling system, and general space within the fairing.
http://www.mrturbo.com/turbo-sys/kawasaki/zx14/zx14.html (http://www.mrturbo.com/turbo-sys/kawasaki/zx14/zx14.html)
My 750turbo had a Mr. Turbo kit (T-2) installed in place of the OEM Hitachi unit.
(http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss159/Motocopter/Kawasaki%20750turbo/turbo2.jpg) (http://s571.photobucket.com/user/Motocopter/media/Kawasaki%20750turbo/turbo2.jpg.html)
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Does this kit sound like a good starting point? Seems to be many similarities with the ZX-14 with regards to the intake/frame, oiling system, and general space within the fairing.
http://www.mrturbo.com/turbo-sys/kawasaki/zx14/zx14.html (http://www.mrturbo.com/turbo-sys/kawasaki/zx14/zx14.html)
My 750turbo had a Mr. Turbo kit (T-2) installed in place of the OEM Hitachi unit.
Yup. The big hurdle is the exhaust set-up. That configuration leaves you with a dump pipe and a filter sticking through the fairing if you want to filter the air pre-turbo (not necessary if you run some mesh in front of the impeller). If you want to run factory exhaust you'll need to make some changes. But other than that and how you run the pre-turbo intake, the ZX-14 is exactly the same set-up as the Concours. You may want to use a better scavenge pump than the one they have pictured... if they are still using that style pump anyway. Keep it @ 8psi or less and you'll be good. :)
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Spaz: I've been following this thread but not commenting 'cause I haven't many miles on my turboed C14 to prove its long term reliability. However, I will offer a comment concerning the need/or not for a scavenger pump. Chris Jones has my turbo installed high enough so it gravity feeds the oil return without need for a scavenger pump. You know I'm not a techie/motorhead but that's what Chris told me. I have 9.5 CR forged JE turbo ZX14 pistons. I also have a 2 stage boost controller with 7 lbs. for 215 bhp street use as well as track launching and 11 lbs. 2nd stage for 238 bhp at the track. For those who say the shaft drive costs hp, keep in mind the quoted bhp is at the rear wheel after the shaft has caused a loss of power. If crank hp were being quoted, then the shaft would cause less hp to the rear wheel than a chain drive. I now have a very low Catalyst step drag seat with a reinforcing under brace and removable sheepskin covered gel/memory foam pad. I've removed more weight and the bike is lowered front and rear with an adjustable side stand and strapped front end for the track. I also put the shorty slashcut pipes back on, removed the dual Muzzys CFs and put the bags back on but no more passenger stuff, grab handles or rack/trunk. Lew
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::)DROOL ::)
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Good to see you Lew. :)
Sure thing, if you mount it high enough you don't need a pump. When I remake my manifold I'm doing the same thing... but if you buy a kit from someone else you don't get the choice. :)
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The motor is plenty strong enough for 8-10lbs... probably a lot more.
I would consider that a pretty good amount of boost I was thinking in 6 or under range would be "safe" and anything more would be... well, who knows (as far as long-term reliability).
Keep it @ 8psi or less and you'll be good. :)
That sounds like good advice. 10 is pretty crazy on a stock engine, if you ask me. Not that I have tons of experience with it, just some... and a friend who has more.
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It's not how much boost, just where it makes it and how it's managed. My ZX10R has 12.5:1 compression (or is it 12.7:1? I forget), and it's living happily (for the moment.....) at 10psi from a centrifugal supercharger on pump gas. It has a little water/meth behind it, but it's still a homebrew effort that is going well.
For reference on the C14: a lot of folks have made in excess of 300 (and even 400!) horsepower on stock engine internals in the ZX14 platform without problems. The engine is very strong... it's the tuning and management that are far more critical. :)
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Who was the guy that lost the stock cast pistons and at what boost level did that happen. That the reason I have never ventured into a turbo. I didn't want to go through the bother of changing to forged pistons.
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I'll own up to that one. :) However, it wasn't because the pistons were weak, it was because I had a rather sneaky fuel system problem that I didn't catch.... which also pretty instantly destroyed a forged piston as well. Live and learn.
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I'll own up to that one. :) However, it wasn't because the pistons were weak, it was because I had a rather sneaky fuel system problem that I didn't catch.... which also pretty instantly destroyed a forged piston as well. Live and learn.
Plus that keeps reinforcing (no pun intended) what you have been saying about tuning/management/ controls.