Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C-14, aka Kawasaki Concours-14, the new one :) => Accessories and modifications - C14/GTR 1400 => Topic started by: Steve Bell on May 26, 2011, 04:28:25 PM
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I only have 3500KMS on these Galfer rotors and Pads and now I am starting to feel pulsating when I slow to a stop. I sent Galfer an E-Mail and asked about the run out tolerance for these rotors and also asked if bead blasting was required after only 3500KMS maybe due to pad material build up, On Galfers website under Rotor care they suggest bead blasting every year! Anyway I got an E-Mail back right away but they did not answer either of my 2 questions?? They only said send them back to us and we will take a look!
I live in Canada and can just imagine how long that would take.
25 Years of riding on the street and 4 years of road racing and this is the first bike I have even had rotor issues with.
I sent them another E-Mail asking for both of my original questions to be answered so I will keep you guys informed.
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Ask them to send you new replacements and THEN you'll send them the old ones. Otherwise you can't ride.
Well you can ride, you just can't stop, which comes in handy sometimes.
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Do you feel the pulsing in the brake lever or with the wheel? It may make a difference in what might be wrong. I have the EBC rotors on the front and they started shuddering... No pulsing in the lever, though. Removed the pad material left overs with a rotor hone and they are quite a bit better. I still think I have a pad issue that I'm working on this weekend, though.
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Do you feel the pulsing in the brake lever or with the wheel? It may make a difference in what might be wrong. I have the EBC rotors on the front and they started shuddering... No pulsing in the lever, though. Removed the pad material left overs with a rotor hone and they are quite a bit better. I still think I have a pad issue that I'm working on this weekend, though.
I do not feet it in the lever just the in the front end as I slow to a stop. It feels like there is a smooth spot where the pads slip and then another section where the pads grab?
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Yep, it could be an over deposit of pad material. Which pads were you using?
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Yep, it could be an over deposit of pad material. Which pads were you using?
Galfer HH Street pads. Bought new with the rotors.
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Did the same with my EBC rotors. They told me it would take up to a thousand miles to break them in and that some 'shuddering' was normal. Well, it's been longer than that for me but I probably caused my issue. I just replaced the CL pads with the EBCs without checking on the brake fluid level. I ran a few miles before I realized that it was overfull. When I came back the rotors were somewhat warm and I think probably overheated the pads. My bad. So after I removed the pad deposits it was at least 75% better but not perfect. I'm going to give the pads a little sanding and then if that doesn't help, I'm ordering the Kawi pads for the '10 model as they've been changed...
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Well I sent my reply E-Mail to Galfer Thursday night asking them to answer my questions about run out for the rotors and if Blasting the rotors after only 3500 KMS was common and Friday there was no responce. Maybe they packed up and left for World Superbike in Salt Lake City? I will let you know if they reply next week.
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Still no responce back from Galfer??? Not really liking the customer service right about now! Sent yet another E-Mail tonight.
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Just a thought but I have had better results calling companies on the phone in cases like this. The customer service is generally better and other useful things will come up in a conversation that might not happen in e-mails. It is also a lot harder for most companies to ignore a ringing phone than it is to put off an e-mail. I am not saying Galfer or any other company is not performing correctly, just saying that the phone has worked better for me with other companies.
Brian
Still no responce back from Galfer??? Not really liking the customer service right about now! Sent yet another E-Mail tonight.
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Just a thought but I have had better results calling companies on the phone in cases like this. The customer service is generally better and other useful things will come up in a conversation that might not happen in e-mails. It is also a lot harder for most companies to ignore a ringing phone than it is to put off an e-mail. I am not saying Galfer or any other company is not performing correctly, just saying that the phone has worked better for me with other companies.
Brian
I am sure you are right Brian, I will try to call tomorrow.
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After a few days of phone tag I finally got to talk to a Tech at Galfer. First off he is aware of the Kawasaki rotor issue and he heard that the problem with Kawasaki's warping Rotors was pistons not retracting in the calipers properly and brake pads dragging and warping the rotors!! He also said it was easier for Kawasaki to replace rotors rather than brake calipers.
So he tells me I probably have a brake piston problem.
He told me that the run out tolerence for Galfer is .004" and if I want to blast my rotors to remove old pad material to use #90 glass beads. The other method he recommended is 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper wet with soap and water in a figure 8 motion.
I will check my calipers for binding pistons and the run out on the rotors and let you know.
Steve.
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I have some new Galfer HH pads coming to me soon, hopefully they are a winner for me.
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Ok here are the results of the run out measurements:
Right side rotor has .014" run out.
Left side rotor has .0065" run out.
Galfer Tech told me they have a .004" tolerence so I would have to say they are hooped.
The Tech asked me to check to see if each button on each carrier was loose and that I was able to compress the spring washer by squeezing with my thumb and they were all loose and free. Then I blew out every button to be sure they were free of any brake dust and I removed my calipers for the run out test as well.
All my pads still look brand new and have even wear.
guess I will see what they have to say now.
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Best of luck with them Steve.
I have to say that this is not encouraging. Those rotors are not cheap and I think anyone buying them would hope to put an end to warped rotors.
On a slightly different note, Kawi spec.'s the factory rotors to be w/in 0.010" TIR and I have always thought that was a ridiculous specification. Mine were chattering the entire front end of the bike when they were reading less than 0.007" (each rotor). I think Galfer's spec.'s are a lot more reasonable than the ones in the service manual for a C-14.
Brian
Ok here are the results of the run out measurements:
Right side rotor has .014" run out.
Left side rotor has .0065" run out.
Galfer Tech told me they have a .004" tolerence so I would have to say they are hooped.
The Tech asked me to check to see if each button on each carrier was loose and that I was able to compress the spring washer by squeezing with my thumb and they were all loose and free. Then I blew out every button to be sure they were free of any brake dust and I removed my calipers for the run out test as well.
All my pads still look brand new and have even wear.
guess I will see what they have to say now.
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I have to say that this is not encouraging. Those rotors are not cheap and I think anyone buying them would hope to put an end to warped rotors.
I thought long and hard about spending the extra cash on Galfers compared to EBC or even some E-Bay knock offs and went with Galfer because I "heard" they were the best rotors for the money and I thought I would no longer have rotor problems. ::)
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As the French say, 'I laugh in your general direction..'. I can say this because that's why I went with EBCs and had the same problems....sigh.
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Yeah, I was in that same spot and was chewing on expensive, name brand rotors or the cheap Chinese knock- offs. Not that I believe the copies are as good but they are so inexpensive that you could buy several sets for the price of one set of 'real' rotors. It ended up that my second set of Kawasaki rotors (replaced under warranty) were just coated with pad material and an aggressive cleaning restored them to brand new smoothness so I didn't end up buying anyone's rotors.
The Galfer and EBC rotors warping makes me wonder if the rotors themselves are just too small for the bike? FJRs seem to have similar sized rotors but there is not much chatter about them warping. ??? We (the C-14 community) have been chewing on this since the early days and still have no definitive solution that we know of. Perhaps the 2011 rotor carriers will fix the problem but it is too soon to tell.
Brian
I thought long and hard about spending the extra cash on Galfers compared to EBC or even some E-Bay knock offs and went with Galfer because I "heard" they were the best rotors for the money and I thought I would no longer have rotor problems. ::)
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I have a 2006 Suzuki GSX-R 1000 that I bought new and have about 27000 KMS on it right now and thought I should see what the run out is like on those rotors while I have the dial indicator here from work....
about .001" on one side and .0015" on the other. Maybe I need to mount a Suzuki front wheel assembly on my 14!! :rotflmao:
Kidding.
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I don't know about the wheel but swapping the rotors might be a good idea (not kidding here). How do your Suzuki rotors compare with the C-14 rotors in size (outer diameter, inner diameter of the part the rotor touches), and thickness? Are they substantially more solid (fewer lightening holes)?
Brian
I have a 2006 Suzuki GSX-R 1000 that I bought new and have about 27000 KMS on it right now and thought I should see what the run out is like on those rotors while I have the dial indicator here from work....
about .001" on one side and .0015" on the other. Maybe I need to mount a Suzuki front wheel assembly on my 14!! :rotflmao:
Kidding.
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I can take a look in the morning! Maybe I can steal the rotors off my wifes FZ-1?? :-X
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Let us know if it works out for you.. ;)
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I'm sure you could all figure that the rotors on my GSX-R and the FZ-1 are quite different just in where they bolt to the wheel that I did not even have to take out a tape measure! Anyway Galfer should get back to me tomorrow and I will report back.
Steve.
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After a few days of phone tag I finally got to talk to a Tech at Galfer. First off he is aware of the Kawasaki rotor issue and he heard that the problem with Kawasaki's warping Rotors was pistons not retracting in the calipers properly and brake pads dragging and warping the rotors!! He also said it was easier for Kawasaki to replace rotors rather than brake calipers.
So he tells me I probably have a brake piston problem.
He told me that the run out tolerence for Galfer is .004" and if I want to blast my rotors to remove old pad material to use #90 glass beads. The other method he recommended is 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper wet with soap and water in a figure 8 motion.
I will check my calipers for binding pistons and the run out on the rotors and let you know.
Steve.
This sounds like it explains what happened with me. I got my stock rotors replaced under warranty and the new ones started the chattering thingy within 3000 miles. The dealer asked me to leave my bike so they could check the entire brake system at the wheel and the result was Kawasaki agreeing to replace the entire brake caliper assembly. I am currently waiting for the parts to arrive so they can do the replacement.
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Well it must be a big decision for Galfer if they will replace or not, I sent in my pictures and run out readings and they have not responded the last 3 days? ???
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Well not the best news....I had to call them back because again today there was no message or E-Mail.
They will not take my readings and photos as proof that the rotors are warped and I need to send the rotors to Galfer for inspection at MY cost. If they agree that these should be replaced after inspection they will send me a new set at MY cost and if they feel that this is not a warranty issue they will send me back my same rotors at MY cost.
Looks like my bike will be down for 3+ weeks with shipping and inspection times. :(
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I installed some Galfer pads last night, so far so good. ;) I have a hard time believing your rotors are actually warped, but I guess it is remotely possible.
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I've dealt with Galfer before. Not on a streetbike issue, but with some dirtbike lines. Let me say they were very nice to work with, but the issues was deemed "my fault". I suppose it was, but one might think a fitting should hold up to Hercules like grip on the brake lever.
I've since found Vesrah makes some very, very good brake pads.
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Well not the best news....I had to call them back because again today there was no message or E-Mail.
They will not take my readings and photos as proof that the rotors are warped and I need to send the rotors to Galfer for inspection at MY cost. If they agree that these should be replaced after inspection they will send me a new set at MY cost and if they feel that this is not a warranty issue they will send me back my same rotors at MY cost.
Looks like my bike will be down for 3+ weeks with shipping and inspection times. :(
Tell them you are letting the whole world know about this at THEIR cost.
8)
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I've dealt with Galfer before. Not on a streetbike issue, but with some dirtbike lines. Let me say they were very nice to work with, but the issues was deemed "my fault". I suppose it was, but one might think a fitting should hold up to Hercules like grip on the brake lever.
I've since found Vesrah makes some very, very good brake pads.
My last phone call with Galfer sounded like this was going to be all my fault and that I must have done something wrong like touched the brake lever or something!! Also they were pretty quick to blame the warped rotors on Kawasaki calipers. I guess we will see when I send them in to look at but whatever answer they come back with does not change the fact that they are warped almost 4 times past thier service limit on one side and just over the limit on the other.
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Tell them you are letting the whole world know about this at THEIR cost.
8)
Some companies will never understand customer service and what losing a customer will cost them in the future. I am still hopeful for a new set when they see how far out these are and if I am only out shipping costs thats not as much as if my $600.00 rotors are garbage.
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Steve, thats just about the same attitude they had with me. Their brake lines are cool since the fittings rotate, when assembled, and will allow perfect alignment like factory hoses. However, this cool feature makes the fittings very brittle. They "break" like glass if pressure is put on them. Ga8.00lfer offered to put a new fitting on my old line of I paid 8.00 plus shipping both ways. I laughed at the 8.00, but decided the garbage can was the best place for this line.
I knwo the old (2003???) Tokiko calipers we used on the Suzuki sv bikes would get sticky pistons once they got dirty and slightly corroded. I wonder if something like that is goign on here? I would like to avoid roasting the rotors on my "new to me" 2008 abs model, is possible, especially since the brakes are amazingly good.
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Well Galfer just called and YES the rotors were warped and YES I am happy to say they are sending me a new set. :thumbs: :)
I am out another $60.00 because I had to pay the shipping for them to inspect my rotors and again to ship my new set to me, better than paying for another set I guess!
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Did you have a dealer install your Galfers, per their warranty clause... or did you do them yourself? I have a set on the way (backorderd till 8/18... ::)) was going to put them on myself.
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I can see paying to ship the rotors to Galfer, but I can't believe they made you pay for the shipping back to you. That right there is enough to keep me from dealing with them.
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Did you have a dealer install your Galfers, per their warranty clause... or did you do them yourself? I have a set on the way (backorderd till 8/18... ::)) was going to put them on myself.
I installed the rotors myself, and I do not see that listed on Galfer's website that a dealer needs to install rotors?
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I can see paying to ship the rotors to Galfer, but I can't believe they made you pay for the shipping back to you. That right there is enough to keep me from dealing with them.
Well they do offer free shipping in the good Ole USA but because I am Canadian I pay both ways. ;)
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I saw it on something... forget where now. But it pretty much stated it had to be installed by a "professional" for the warranty to stand. I'm glad they stood behind it for you, other than you paying for shipping.
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I have a set on the way (backorderd till 8/18... ::))
Galfer just called me back to inform me that the rotors are actually back ordered. :( Looks like another month with no bike.
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Yeah... I was wondering when you would get yours. Sorry to say you are in the same boat as I on the backorder. I at least have some pulsing Kawasaki rotors on till the Galfers come in, which should last.
Good luck on your new set. ;)
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Yeah... I was wondering when you would get yours. Sorry to say you are in the same boat as I on the backorder. I at least have some pulsing Kawasaki rotors on till the Galfers come in, which should last.
Good luck on your new set. ;)
I wish I could put on my stock rotors!! When I got my new Galfer rotors last fall they had to be used with Galfer pads or no warranty so I took a look at my worn down stock Kawasaki brake pads and thought I would never use these again and chucked them in the garbage! Galfer made me send in my Galfer pads for inspection with my rotors so I currently have no pads! If I thought this whole ordeal would have taken so long I should have bought another set of pads and used my stock rotors.
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Well Galfer just called and YES the rotors were warped and YES I am happy to say they are sending me a new set. :thumbs: :)
I am out another $60.00 because I had to pay the shipping for them to inspect my rotors and again to ship my new set to me, better than paying for another set I guess!
So what happens when the new ones warp too? You gonna keep paying $60 every time they warp? Obviously, if the OEM rotors warped and aftermarket rotors warped too, there is a systemic problem that swapping rotors is not going to rectify. I also would tend to believe the caliper MAY be a culprit in this issue - at least worth checking. BTW, I thought that Fred Harmon checked the 2011 rotors and they had a different design?
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. BTW, I thought that Fred Harmon checked the 2011 rotors and they had a different design?
IIRC the carrier is a little more beefy to help keep the rotors from warping. All I know is that I have the 2011 rotors on my 2008 and they feel great after 5,000+ miles. Hopefully they continue this great performance.
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So what happens when the new ones warp too? You gonna keep paying $60 every time they warp? Obviously, if the OEM rotors warped and aftermarket rotors warped too, there is a systemic problem that swapping rotors is not going to rectify. I also would tend to believe the caliper MAY be a culprit in this issue - at least worth checking.
No idea if Galfer would replace another set for me or not, lets hope I don't have to find out! I checked both calipers to see if each piston moved freely and they all did so I'm not sure what else could be checked on the calipers? The stock brake lever preloads the piston in the master cylinder slightly when it is installed so I am going to modify the lever slightly so there is zero preload on the piston when the lever is released and maybe that will help.
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I finally got my warranty set of Galfer rotors and I must say I am not impressed with Galfers quality and would suggest others spend their money on something else. Galfer claims the runout tolerance is .004" and my brand new rotors are .005" on one side and .006" on the other. I went for a ride today and they feel fine but I can't help but feel they probably won't last. :(
For reference I have a GSX-R 1000 with 30,000KMS and the rotors on that only runout at .002" and .0015" tested with the same dial indicator set up.
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Steve, sorry to hear about your Galfer troubles.
I've had nothing but good since I installed my Galfers in 2009. 20,000+ miles with zero issues, and I use my brakes HARD.
By the way, Sport Bike Track Gear had the best price I could find, and the fact that they are local is great!
Steve, did you and I put the Galfers on about the same time? I seem to remember some correspondence we had. Mine went on right after the US GP at Indy in 2009 (Sept.).
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Anyone ever try Brembo rotors? They have some quality stuff.
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Anyone ever try Brembo rotors? They have some quality stuff.
I have been doing some research on Brembo rotors and calipers. There aren't any kits for the C14 (that I have found) but a kit for the ZX-14 runs about $1,700 which is steep but it is something to think about once I run out of warranty coverage.
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You may want to check the ZX-14 forums for any issues with those. They have the same problems with the rotors as we do. Our front ends are heavier than theirs so while the kit may work for them and physically work for us we may have issues where they might not. 'ware the law of Unintended Consequences.... With that being said, I would like someone to experiment with that setup.
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Steve, did you and I put the Galfers on about the same time? I seem to remember some correspondence we had. Mine went on right after the US GP at Indy in 2009 (Sept.).
I installed my first set in July 2010 and only got around 3500KMS on the bike before the rotors warped.
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got over 40k on my galfers and just changed pads @ 35k.work perfect no issues,unlike stockers which I fried in 10k.Using street HH pads from galfer.Brake very powerful and responsive with great feedback. ;D
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After a few days of phone tag I finally got to talk to a Tech at Galfer. First off he is aware of the Kawasaki rotor issue and he heard that the problem with Kawasaki's warping Rotors was pistons not retracting in the calipers properly and brake pads dragging and warping the rotors!! He also said it was easier for Kawasaki to replace rotors rather than brake calipers.
So he tells me I probably have a brake piston problem.
He told me that the run out tolerence for Galfer is .004" and if I want to blast my rotors to remove old pad material to use #90 glass beads. The other method he recommended is 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper wet with soap and water in a figure 8 motion.
I will check my calipers for binding pistons and the run out on the rotors and let you know.
Steve.
bet he heard that RUMOR on the Internet too huh.
41,000 miles no pulsing but have went through quite a few front brake pads.
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Well, I have had my rotors replaced under warranty a couple a weeks ago. My bike is 09 and I have about 11.000 mil. on it. And I am definately a front brake user compearing to some other riders. Left front rotor was warped and my dealer put a two new ones (2011 ones) and I am afraid they will be warped, too. Reason is ; I think left caliper mounting surfice on the fork is not paralel to each other. When I put a paralel on it (the ones used on machining work at the brigeports in a wise) I feel small amount rocking on the two machined surfice at the front fork where the caliper mount. Also, it is very challenging to mount the calipers, specially if you have some friction on the caliper mount bolts, they tend to twist the caliper and that causes for a un even wear on the pads.
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Interesting....
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Well, I have had my rotors replaced under warranty a couple a weeks ago. My bike is 09 and I have about 11.000 mil. on it. And I am definately a front brake user compearing to some other riders. Left front rotor was warped and my dealer put a two new ones (2011 ones) and I am afraid they will be warped, too. Reason is ; I think left caliper mounting surfice on the fork is not paralel to each other. When I put a paralel on it (the ones used on machining work at the brigeports in a wise) I feel small amount rocking on the two machined surfice at the front fork where the caliper mount. Also, it is very challenging to mount the calipers, specially if you have some friction on the caliper mount bolts, they tend to twist the caliper and that causes for a un even wear on the pads.
I had my front rotors replaced under warranty and the warping/pulsating gremlin came right back - so the dealer got permission from Kawasaki to replace practically everything associated with calipers and rotors. Haven't had a problem since.
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Practically everything, heh? Front wheel, forks, calipers? Come on, give us a hint on what else was replaced.
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Practically everything, heh? Front wheel, forks, calipers? Come on, give us a hint on what else was replaced.
See attached schematic from the service manual for items I understood were replaced the second time.
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Rotors, I understand. Caliper pistons and seals...now that's interesting.