Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: julianop on August 09, 2012, 11:36:26 PM
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I have put 15,500 miles in 11 1/2 months on my 2006 fitted with a Dunlop Sportmax 120/70 ZR18 on the front and a Shinko SR777 150/80 R16 (H rated) on the rear. I spend a very large proportion of my miles slabbing from Minneapolis MN down I94 to Rockford IL and back - a 720 mile round trip - sometimes in weather that would cause most people to leave the bike in the garage. Add another 24 miles per day five days a week local, semi-rural travel and we're talking close to 1000 miles a week during the summer months, obviously less in winter. I've driven past cars parked on the side of the road in rainstorms on more than one occasion, not being afraid of the rain, so I need good wet weather tires.
My rear is getting a little flat (normally attentive, I got a little lax on tire pressure maintenance over the past couple of weeks), while the front still has plenty of tread left. I am a gentle rider, then, but not a slow rider, spending most of my time between 75 and 90.
So the question is: what tires should I look for to replace the rear now, and the front when necessary? I am of course open to changing them both together, if there is a recommended pair.
Thanks for all recommendations.
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The tires I'd recommend for you are discontinued (grrr Michelin for discontinuing the Pilot GTs!!!). That being said, I can say that the Avon AM42 Venom rear (in 'Wing' Size) seems to do alright in rainy conditions as well.
I can't speak to the other tires, as I haven't tried them yet. I'm sure that others will chime in shortly with their rain experience with the higher mileage tire choices.
I could comfortably say, however, that the Metzeler ME880 is probably NOT a good traction tire, especially in rain. I've seen several posts here that have talked about lowsides and such involving that tire in inclement weather, and less than stellar performance in general.
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Thanks for that recommendation. I hear nothing but good things about the Avons, except for mileage, and as a "utility" rather than "discretionary" rider, that's a big issue.
I really do need input here, as I have absolutely no experience in this area at all.
Speaking of which, what do you mean by "'Wing' Size" ?
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Having been a long distance despatch rider tyres are always a critical consideration, back in the day when Michelin still made 16" Radials there was nothing else I would consider and clocked up close on 80,000 very hard miles on my first GTR, during which time I had only praise for the tyres.
Sadly Michelin in their infinite wisdom decided that radial 16" tyres were not worth their while to produce, so left anyone riding a 900R, 1000RX, C10, Eliminator, GSX (85-88 some models), Ducati 750 Paso's or 96 900 Fireblade with a serious issue. (and many other high performance bikes).
Thankfully, for those of us who remember such things, back when M59x (rear) and A59x (front) michelins were released, the A59x front had a triangular profile which gave some decidedly disconcerting handling charachteristics, many riders (me included) discovered that the Avon ST23 front was a perfect match for the Michelin rear and gave some awesome handling, stability and wear rates. Michelin realsing (eventually) their error launched the M90x and A90x only a couple of years after the 59's, these new tryes were an excellent improvement on an already good rear tyre and a remarkable turnaround on the front which to all intents and purposes was an almost identical copy to the Avon ST23 front.
Anyways I digress, the point I would like to say is that Avon and Michelin have followed a fairly close path over the years in the profile, compound and charachteristics departments of their tyres.
Currently Avon still make the Azaro Radial in 16", this coupled with a Michelin Pilot Road or Pilot Road2 gives an excellent combination for stability, grip and wear in most weather conditions. The Azaro sometimes being described as a bit hard is a worthy tyre giving around 5500 miles with reasonably spirited riding, the Michelins having a softer compound and give a wonderfully neutral balanced feel to the front end, excellent wet grip and life expectancy in the 7,000 mi + range (10-12k is not unknown even with hard riding). I refrained from using the new Road3 Michelin as I felt the difference in technology between the Azaro and the Road3 is too great to give a comfortable medium, the Road3 having exceptional grip in all conditions, especially the wet.
This is my recommendation for the Moment, I personally will not run anything that's not a radial as I do tend to ride quite hard and fast and don't trust Bias belted tyres at all.
Avon ST Azaro AV46 150/80 ZR16 rear
Michelin Pilot Road2 110/80 ZR18 front
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Upgrading the rear rim to a Mean Streak 17x5 inch rim opened up the tire choices dramatically plus it gives you a modern and much improved tire profile you cannot get with the 16x3.5 stock rim.
With the 17 you can now purchase the better made dual compound rear tires like the Avorn Storm Ultra 2 and the Michelin PR3 and PR2 which not only last well but have more grip in the rain than any other touring or sport/touring tire made.
The handling is much better with the improved contact patch in the corners and one other thing I noticed.
When I had the 16 inch rim and the tire went flat due to a slow leak, the bike would always throw itself to the ground off the side stand but not with a 17.
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Great idea ... if I can afford it..
It sounds like a project for the winter, though - if we have one that grounds me this year: we didn't last year :-)
Except that my Shinko 777 won't last that long.
Is there anyone I can contact via this site who I can pay to do the work for me?
What do we do with the front if we up the back to 16? No change? I take it the outside diameter doesn't change that much because of changes in aspect ratio?
Final question for now, repeated from my previous post: what is meant by "wing sizes" ?
I did say I was inexperienced in this area, didn't I?!
Thanks for answering my "noob" questions.
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Wing as in Honda Gold Wing.....lots of them around so tires are easy to find in their specific size and load spec.
As to the meanstreak wheel it is indeed an upgrade but not in the "more miles from your tires" category so if your first criteria is mileage then you can stick with the OE size.
I believe the mileage champ is the Metzler 880 but having had them on my own bike I would suggest you go with something else.....
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Long life and grip do not go together with any tyre. I have never got 15500 miles from a rear tyre regardless of bike, make, construction, etc. So I think you're doing very well. Do a search as a lot of tyres are still available for 16" wheel and don't be afraid of bias plies they're fine. Once they were all that could be got and they were raced on at higher speeds than you are quoting and they are H rated which is 210 kph (130 mph) continuous, some are even V rated 240 kph.
Avon tyres have been known to have carcass failures, there are threads on this.
Regards, Russell
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Thanks for that recommendation. I hear nothing but good things about the Avons, except for mileage, and as a "utility" rather than "discretionary" rider, that's a big issue.
I really do need input here, as I have absolutely no experience in this area at all.
Speaking of which, what do you mean by "'Wing' Size" ?
The Avon Venom rear is more of a mileage tire, as opposed to the sportier tires that Avon makes. I'm pretty happy with it. Nice tradeoff of handling versus wear, but then I'm not really a performance rider. I'm still working on wearing out my Pilot GT front; I managed about 19,200 miles or so out of the last one. The rear should exceed 10,000 miles easily (looks like 12K is the magic number), and I currently have about 9000 miles on said rear at the moment.
As for 'Wing' size, this is:
160/80/16 for the rear
130/70/18 for the front
These are slightly larger than the 'regular' sized tires, but fit the Connie. The increased circumference is about 2-3% larger, which results in slightly lower revs on the engine at speed, and in my case corrected the 2-3% inaccuracy of my speedo (my speedo is now pretty much dead on). The larger tires do affect handling, but I'd say in a good way for touring as the gyroscopic effect is increased with the heavier weight of the tires. This helps counter buffeting around big rigs and such, but then I'm comparing against the 'stock' Dunflops that originally came with the bike of course.
The Avon AM41 Venom front is the 'matched' tire for the Venom rear. I'm hearing good things about the Shinko 777's and such on this forum, though, and am following the ride reports on these.
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Running GW size Bridgestone BT45 "rear" tire in the front. Got over 20,000 on it so far, and over half the tread left. Yes, I measure the tread depth. Folks that think "good handling" means "falls into the turn with no effort" will not like that setup, since it takes a little more effort to induce direction changes. whtvr.
Rain, Death Valley heat in Summer, even some snow. It seems to handle the weather just fine.
CT on the rear...also unexpectedly good in the weather. Same mileage. (Ducking)
I threw those on last year for a long distance rally. Did not want to need a tire change in the middle of it, right? That was no problem.
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Running GW size Bridgestone BT45 "rear" tire in the front. Got over 20,000 on it so far, and over half the tread left. Yes, I measure the tread depth. Folks that think "good handling" means "falls into the turn with no effort" will not like that setup, since it takes a little more effort to induce direction changes. whtvr.
Rain, Death Valley heat in Summer, even some snow. It seems to handle the weather just fine.
CT on the rear...also unexpectedly good in the weather. Same mileage. (Ducking)
I threw those on last year for a long distance rally. Did not want to need a tire change in the middle of it, right? That was no problem.
Hey datsaxman, I've been wondering what you've been up to! Good to see that you are still giving the Car Tire On A Connie naysayers something to talk about!
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I had yo replace an Avon Venom rear, in stock size, prematurely this year due to Carcass failure. I've read and heard about quite few others, also. I replaced it with a Michelin Commander II. The Commander II really rides and handles nice and seems to wear very well. 2.5k mi so far. The bad part. I road home from work in the rain the other day, that Commander II is all about breaking loose on a corner extremely easy, I think even worse than the Metz 880 I had on there many moons ago. It's coming off next week, too dangerous. I'm still trying to figure out how to post up to the NTSB on it. It is truly that bad.
I ordered up a Shinko Journey890 in the Wing size, 160/80R(yes, it's a radial)/18. I've heard good on them, and am using different Shinko tires on my KLR with excellent results. We'll see how that works.
If this bike didn't have 170k miles on it, I would do a Mean streak Conversion. Folks are getting 10-12k mi with good, modern rubber on the rear, going to this 17" wheel.
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So the question is: what tires should I look for to replace the rear now, and the front when necessary? I am of course open to changing them both together, if there is a recommended pair.
Thanks for all recommendations.
Hey Julianop,
After wearing out my last Pilot GT I tried a set of the Avon AM-26's. They are bias ply but you would never know it. They do not have the heavy handling like most bias ply tires do. I ran them at the National this year in Arkansas and they performed great. Daytona Mike can attest to how well they handle. They are available
in stock C-10 sizes. I used the 110/80-18 front and the 150/80-16 rear.
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Hey Two Skies,
Naysayers?? CTs on Connies?? K700 and K701 are the best!! Love that knife-edge front tire in the rain! Just like riding a 250!!
How's that?
Nuthin' to look at here, folks...move along now... that idiot with the CT will fall over the first time he gets to a corner...it will be riding on the sidewall...or go up in flames...or the rear drive will explode from the stress...or something BAD is gonna happen for sure...it just ain't right I tell ya...
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Hey Two Skies,
Naysayers?? CTs on Connies?? K700 and K701 are the best!! Love that knife-edge front tire in the rain! Just like riding a 250!!
How's that?
Nuthin' to look at here, folks...move along now... that idiot with the CT will fall over the first time he gets to a corner...it will be riding on the sidewall...or go up in flames...or the rear drive will explode from the stress...or something BAD is gonna happen for sure...it just ain't right I tell ya...
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :chugbeer: At least you take it all in good humor. My father rides a GL1800 wing and pulls a bunkhouse camper so you can bet he is a darksider.
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Humor...most def...
What else can I do? Typical scenario is that a guy wearing a pirate getup with 5,000 miles on a 10 year old cruiser wants to tell me that it won't work. A super helpful rider told me that at a gas stop last year during a three day rally I was in. 2500 miles from home, he told me "You won't go one tank of gas before that thing will start causing trouble...bike won't handle right..."
I mean...how seriously CAN I take that guy?
Seriously, folks...never put a non-stock tire on your bike.
Hey, what kind of oil do you like?
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Oh heck, don't start talking oil, please ;-)
So, I'm interested in the Venoms, but I'm having trouble getting a matched pair of either stock sizes or wing sizes...
would a 110/90-18 be OK in front (instead of the 110/80-18) to match a 150/80-16 ?
I can get those from Chaparral...
What the heck are CTs/Car Tires ?? Sorry, I'm just not up on the vernacular yet :-(
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If you are going to run the Avon Venom on the rear, I would recommend the Avon Storm Ultra in the 110/80/18 size. I've a good friend who runs this combination, he has been well pleased with this combo. I've ridden his Concours and the tires work very well on it. I'm mounting a new pair of the same tires on his bike this weekend.
The Storm Ultra front is an excellent front tire, it gets good mileage, and sticks very well wet or dry.
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Yes, I was wondering about the Storm Ultra, Roadhound, after I saw it in the Avon website. It certainly looks decent.
So the favorite combos now are Venom/Storm Ultra and Azaro/Pilot Road2...
What about an Azaro ST (rear)/Storm Ultra (front) combo ? They're both Avons, both high mileage, both sport tourers, both claimed to be good all-weather.
Unless someone wants to chip in on the 110/90-18 vs 110/80-18 question? The slight increase in diameter might not be a problem, and the guy I spoke to at Revzilla seemed to be strongly in favor of a matched set. He also strongly agreed with Two Skies' comment about increased gyroscopic stability, so I also have a slight preference for a Venom/Venom combo if there are Wing sizes for both in that series.
I just noticed that Avon actually suggest the Azaro ST 150/80ZR16(rear)/Storm Ultra 120/70ZR18(front) combo. Any objections/warnings ?
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The 110/90-18 is not a good fit.... Go with an Avon 110/80-18 radial or a 130/70-18 bias such as the Venom. I've run the GoldWing sized Venoms and liked them a lot.
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Thanks T-Cro. That'll be the Storm 2 Ultra, then.
Can you mix bias and radial?
How about mixing Wing and stock sizes?
I'm nearly done with these dumb-@$$ questions, guys, honest ;-)
but I got a lot of learnin' to do in a short while, and with my commute, my mileage and typical weather conditions I really have to make the best possible choices...
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Muddy the water for ya: My storm ultra/Azaro ST was fantastic tires, but I only got 5-7K out of them. Of course my roads and riding habits are hard on tires: my high mileage car tires wear out really quick too.
I never got in on the conversation because of this reason: I live in the mountians of NC and rarely hit long freeway rides. I do now have the Shinko Journey radial on back, with the Shinko 011 radial on front and find them to handle predictably peg to peg, much like the Avons. Wet riding is also same/same. Mileage is still to be determined.
Just food for thought. If your roads are easy on tires then you will get better mileage. If it was me, and I was worried about high quality, high mileage, I would look at Avons bias tires, or the Michellin front radial/rear bias setup.
On that note, it is thought that front tire to be stickier than the rear, with the thought that you would like for your rear to break free before your front. Normally accepted is the radial front/ bias rear. Again, something that I would worry about, not as much a feeway rider.
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What about an Azaro ST (rear)/Storm Ultra (front) combo ? They're both Avons, both high mileage, both sport tourers, both claimed to be good all-weather.
Unless someone wants to chip in on the 110/90-18 vs 110/80-18 question? The slight increase in diameter might not be a problem, and the guy I spoke to at Revzilla seemed to be strongly in favor of a matched set. He also strongly agreed with Two Skies' comment about increased gyroscopic stability, so I also have a slight preference for a Venom/Venom combo if there are Wing sizes for both in that series.
I just noticed that Avon actually suggest the Azaro ST 150/80ZR16(rear)/Storm Ultra 120/70ZR18(front) combo. Any objections/warnings ?
The Azaro rear is a very good tire, I ran them for years, I now run the Storm Ultra front and rear after installing a 17" rear wheel. The Azaro will not give you the kind of mileage you seem to be looking for. The Storm Ultra is a dual compound tire and gives considerably better mileage.
Don't listen to that guy at Revzilla that 110/90/18 is not a good fit for the Concours. The 110/80/18 tire is the perfect fit for the Concours wheel, the 120/70/18 tire is actually too wide to fit properly. You can run the Wing size Venom front, if you can deal with the heavy, slow. steering and lack of feel from the front
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According to this calculator, the 120/70r18 is actually narrower than the 130/70r18, and 120/70r18 58w is the size listed in the manual. The Avon Storm II Ultra comes in this size.
http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/tirecalc.php?tires=130-70r18-120-70r18 (http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/tirecalc.php?tires=130-70r18-120-70r18)
One vendor that stocks the Avon Ultra Storm II Ultra, in 120/70zr18 59w
http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/p/49/-/181/750/-/28368/Avon-Storm-2-Ultra-Front-Motorcycle-Tire/AVON+STORM (http://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/p/49/-/181/750/-/28368/Avon-Storm-2-Ultra-Front-Motorcycle-Tire/AVON+STORM)
As for the heavier steering comments, I found that I actually preferred the heavy steering feeling of the Pilot GTs, and it wasn't that big of a deal once you got used to it. To me, the bike felt more planted/stable. But then, I'm a touring guy that slabs A LOT, not a sport guy. I haven't tried the Venom front yet, so I can't comment on how it feels.
I know the Venom rear was slightly lighter (in pounds/ounces) than the GT rear, but since I can't find the weight specs for the GTs anymore, I can't compare the Venom Front versus the GT front. The weight plays into the gyroscopic effect, and the Venom rear is much easier to throw over than the GT rear was (not as heavy on the steering). Perhaps TCro can comment on this.
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According to this calculator, the 120/70r18 is actually narrower than the 130/70r18, and 120/70r18 58w is the size listed in the manual. The Avon Storm II Ultra comes in this size.
As for the heavier steering comments, I found that I actually preferred the heavy steering feeling of the Pilot GTs, and it wasn't that big of a deal once you got used to it. To me, the bike felt more planted/stable. But then, I'm a touring guy that slabs A LOT, not a sport guy. I haven't tried the Venom front yet, so I can't comment on how it feels.
You do know that the wang size front in a radial is too wide for your front rim. The 130/70/18 in a Bias ply is OK on a 3 inch wide rim but the 130/70/18 Radial is for a wider front rim. The120/70/18 Radial is made to work on a 3.5 inch minimum rim width. The OEM 120 radial was an undersized tire measuring 111mm wide for fitment to a 3 in wide rim. I've run lots of them the 110/80/18 Radial is great on the front.
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The size in the manual is actually wrong. There have been cases of other manufacturers doing this for appearance purposes.
110/80/18 Radial is the correct size for the stock front rim. Roadhound is correct. 8)
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The size in the manual is actually wrong.
110/80/18 Radial is the correct size for the stock front rim.
Thanks for that, Mike. I was literally typing a "no-fair" comment on that very subject when your post came in: my manual says 120/70-18 while the service manual says 110/80-18.
My rim width is very clearly 3 1/2 inches. Is that standard?
I am also detecting that as the aspect ratio increases the nominal required rim size goes down. I assume this is because of the curvature of the tire cross section, right? On a low profile tire the rim width would be closer to the section width, while for a higher profile tire the rim width would be smaller, because the tire bead would be further in from the overall diameter.
Thanks, everybody, for offering input on this issue, by the way. I hope there is collective benefit from all this...
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OK, maybe not so clearly... ???
Per the accompanying picture...
Adding the extra 3/16" or so to bring the end of the tape to the dead center of the wheel, and compensating for parallax error, the outside of the rim measures at about 1 13/16.
1 13/16 * 2 = 2 13/8, or 3 5/8". For it to be a true 3" rim, the rim walls would have to be 5/16 thick....
If that's what you call a 3" rim, that's fine, I don't care; I just thought I'd better check...
The back is equally misleading: sure looks as much like 4" as it does 3 1/3".
Of course, I've been telling my wife 5" is 6" for twenty years, so don't trust me to measure stuff ::)
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Just checked Avon's site. They recommend 3.5" rims for the Storm II Ultra in 120/70-18. And checking other Avon and Dunlop tires, your statement about Bias 3", Radial 3.5" seems to track. In other news, it looks like Michelin is going away from 16" tires altogether, apparently, at least for our bikes.
The newer Connies usually have 3.00 inch rims, the older Connies have narrower rims. I'd imagine that's an inside measurement, cue the experts!
Also, I noticed your Sportmax (Roadsmart?) only comes in 120/70ZR18, the RoadsmartII also comes in 110/80ZR18. Dunlop recommends 3.5" rims for the 120/70. How does the current front handle for you?
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Just checked Avon's site. They recommend 3.5" rims for the Storm II Ultra in 120/70-18...
Yes exactly! It was seeing that spec which triggered me to go measure my rims, hence my previous post.
The newer Connies usually have 3.00 inch rims, the older Connies have narrower rims. I'd imagine that's an inside measurement, cue the experts!
Well mine seem like 3 1/4 front and 3 3/4 rear to me - definitely bigger than 3 and 3 1/2 (again, assuming the rim walls are less than 1/4 thick), though not quite 3 1/2 and 4: per my measurements the walls could only be 1/8" thick.
Also, I noticed your Sportmax (Roadsmart?) only comes in 120/70ZR18, the RoadsmartII also comes in 110/80ZR18. Dunlop recommends 3.5" rims for the 120/70. How does the current front handle for you?
Yes, it's the Roadsmart, not the 'II. It seems fine to me, but it's all I've ever known, so I have nothing to compare it to. On the good side, I can flip a counter-steer into a late, steep turn at a left turn like a wild thing (showing off to oncoming cars!), and I can dance out some crazy harmonic slaloms below 35 (can't do it above 40) if I get bored driving around town, so I wouldn't say the front was heavy at all, but the Connie itself definitely ain't no lightweight. I'm actually very confident with that front tire. I'm a strong front-wheel braker too, relying on the back only when I have no engine braking, and it has never let me down. It slipped slightly once when I had to stand on it when braking for a couple of deer in the road one night, but recovery was as easy as letting off the brake and re-applying, and I didn't pump any adrenalin at all.
On the bad side, there is a little instability, as I've mentioned before, when passing big rigs on the slab when it's windy...
No, I definitely have no need to make the front any lighter - in fact I was seriously considering going to a wing-size bias for some extra stability on the slab.
Finally, the mileage has been great: I'm at 16,000 on it now, and still have plenty of tread left on the front. The hard center is definitely standing proud over the softer sides, but there is no dropping behavior on turns. I've been running standard pressure (36), by the way - I didn't know any different till recently.
Actually, I'm not sure any I'm even considering changing the front tire model away from the Dunlop anyway - I'm not disappointed with it in any way. I guess I just wanted to try something else to broaden my experience.
Hope that answers your question :-)
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Yes exactly! It was seeing that spec which triggered me to go measure my rims, hence my previous post.
Well mine seem like 3 1/4 front and 3 3/4 rear to me - definitely bigger than 3 and 3 1/2 (again, assuming the rim walls are less than 1/4 thick), though not quite 3 1/2 and 4: per my measurements the walls could only be 1/8" thick.
Rim width is measured from inside wall to inside wall, you can not measure rim width from the outside. If you have stock Concours wheels you rim widths are 3.0"front and 3.5" rear. If you have doubts, pull your tires and measure your rims,
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Rim width is measured from inside wall to inside wall, you can not measure rim width from the outside....
Yeah I know that really, but with a bit of basic arithmetic and some experience of casting it isn't hard to get a fair idea, just for a cross-check. The numbers are going to be nominal anyway.
Based on comments I decided in the end to go with the 150/80-16 Azaro this time around, and will put a 110/80-18 Storm 2 Ultra on the front next month. I figured a run with a full radial set, while it won't give me the best mileage, will give me great ride experience, and the number of full slab-ride commutes I get for the remainder of the year versus shorter fun rides will probably have the Azaro lasting well into next season and not squaring off too much, which will be enough for me. I'll run a set of Wing-size Venoms to experience a heavier, mixed ply set next time around. Maybe I'll even upgrade to a 17" rear, we'll see.
Thanks a huge bunch to you and everybody else for holding my hand through this, it's been a great learning experience and I appreciate all the comments, suggestions, knowledge and experience.
Now to go RTFM on lubing splines...
Hey, datsaxman, what was that you wuz sayin' about oil? ;)
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Keep in mind that Storm Ultra front will easily last the mileage of 2 rear Azaros. It's the first front tire I've ever run that I have been comfortable running the front for the mileage of 2 rears.
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Keep in mind that Storm Ultra front will easily last the mileage of 2 rear Azaros. It's the first front tire I've ever run that I have been comfortable running the front for the mileage of 2 rears.
Good point. The Storm 2 Ultra is a dual compound, but the Azaro isnt', right? That's fine: you yourself advocated the Storm 2 Ultra matched up with a Venom rear, so that would work with my plan to check out a bias rear later on.