Kawasaki Concours Forum
The C10, aka Kawasaki Concours - The Original => The Bike - C10 => Topic started by: goatmar on October 13, 2011, 05:14:39 PM
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Okay all here's the issue. I was going to work on the express way, doing 70 for a while, which is about 4k on the tach there abouts. My oil light blinked at me, came on then off then on then off. I slowed down to about 60 and watched it. It didn't come on again. I got to work check my oil and level was good, oil was dirty.
On the way home same thing, 65/70 oil light blinks at me, get home change oil, fire up bike to 3/4 grand and check oil and it looked foamy. Looks the color of those Kraft caramels, you couldn't see through it. The oil I drained out was dirty but didn't see any antifreeze in it. I check radiator by popping the cap and looks green as new. No smoke, not running hotter then normal. Any ideas????? Oil I put in is what I had in before the Shell Rotella T6. I haven't taken the bike on the road yet.
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Is it possible the electrical connection is loose at the pressure sender?
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It takes very little water/coolant to foam up oil. The first thing I would do Is change the oil and filter with whatever you have used in the past that was ok. Make sure to get the engine up to operating temperature for at least 1/2 hour, even if you have to ride with a cover taped over the radiator. That should dry any condensate out of the crankcase. If things do not look good by then, I would suspect coolant leakage. These bikes are not prone to head gasket failure unless they are overheated. I would suspect the water pump seal. Be sure to let us know what you find. Good Luck
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That sure seems to be a symptom of a blown head gasket and maybe you are leaking coolant into the oil.
I seem to remember a test to look for. I think it was something to do with looking for bubbles of air coming out at the fill tube with the rad cap removed but I could be wrong.
I think it was Sunny Steve who had a person with the same symptoms your having and the bubble test confirmed it.
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Are you sure that the oil level was not too high? As that will cause foaming and oil pressure fluctuations; we have 4 new style CAT diesels that will do the same thing if you put too much oil in them.... With the bike on the center stand and after having sat for 15 minutes the oil level should be no higher than 1/2 to 3/4 covering the sight glass window.
Oil that has water in it will generally be a milky color of brown.....
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Gasoline in the oil will also turn it brown. I've seen this many years ago on my Dad's old old pickup when the fuel pump diaphragm failed and was leaking gas into the oil pan. Check to make sure your carbs aren't overflowing.
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Check to make sure your carbs aren't overflowing.
Very good point and a good possibility.
Do you have over flow tubes? If you do not then you may very well destroy your engine with a leaky carb at any moment and you may have already done damage. I do not want to scare you but we see a lot of them here. Do a search for hydrolock.
It is such a simple inexpensive fix to prevent major damage to a perfectly good engine.
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Here's the latest, I put about 700 miles on it no problems, last Friday oil light came on lightly and stayed on. Not bright as no pressure, just lightly. Started it up the next morning, light was off. Changed the oil again........ black again. This time pictures to help, I hope.
First right after filling it, second after running it for about a minute or so. I believe my carbs are okay, don't smell gas in oil. Coolant looks clean........
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In your second picture, I would consider that normal on oil that is not fully warmed up. If it is brown/grey and looks like whipped coffee fappe when the bike is at full temperature I would be concerned about other things getting in the oil.
Now, about that oil light problem. The sender is in the oil pan on the left side of the engine. Senders can go bad. It is simply a switch that connects the wire to ground below a pressure point. That system can also be fooled by that wire touching electrical ground at any other point. I would disconnect it from the sensor and start inspecting it going all the way up to the backbone wiring harness. Any pinch or chaffing will cause the dash light to illuminate. If that checks out change the oil pressure sensor. I really do not think you have an oil pressure problem. An engine does not have to have zero pressure very long before it locks up.
Several years ago I had one where I would get low oil pressure that would come and go. Even with a test gauge screwed in, the pressure was erratic. It turned out that the last owner was a big advocate of using LOTS of rtv sealer, and the oil pickup was full of the little balls of sealer. When the balls of sealer would shift around, they would block almost all the oil flow.
Good Luck
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What do those pictures indacate? Is the first picture of the engine shut down and the 2nd one running? If so then your oil level is TOO high.... After sitting shut down on the center stand for a few minutes the oil level should be no higher than 3/4 of the window. As I've said previously if your oil level is too high that can allow the crankshaft to dip into the oil and whip the oil into a froth which will cause oil pressure issues.
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first picture clearly shows overfilled, and second shot shows what the "at rest level" should be . I tend to agree with Tony, on the overfilled thing. It also appears in the photos the engine in this area looks "shiney and wet" with some fluid mist coating....often this occurs on an over fill, and soon the waterpump oil seal will be a leaker....bt-st many times ...
No mention of the oil filter type, I'll note that a blocked or defective filter, or one that is not capable of the task, will force the oil to be bypassed thru the relief valve, which will definatly cause oil foaming. If you are dumping more than 3 quarts and 6 oz. in there you are overfilling (when the oil was drained using both drain bolts, and a new filter installed...)
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For Tony and Blues, the first picture is just refilled. Engine not started yet. My bike ('01) calls for 3.7 liters, a gallon is 3.785 liters. That's a complete fill. Second picture is after has run for about a minute of so, then turned off.
The oil filter I us is a Scott's stainless steel filter. Just clean and reuse, it's great.
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Thanks guys, Leo I'll look at your suggestions. The thing that puzzles me is that it will work fine for a few days maybe a week and then the oil light issue starts????? Wouldn't that be an on going thing?
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For Tony and Blues, the first picture is just refilled. Engine not started yet. My bike ('01) calls for 3.7 liters, a gallon is 3.785 liters. That's a complete fill. Second picture is after has run for about a minute of so, then turned off.
A complete fill, 3.7 liters is for a completely empty engine, ie. just after having it torn completely down.The refill with filter change is 3 liters, I call 3 qts close enough. Your engine is .7 liter over full of oil if you put 3.7 in it after having pulled both drain plugs and the oil filter.
The oil filter I us is a Scott's stainless steel filter. Just clean and reuse, it's great.
Get rid of that reusable filter, it's not great at anything except wearing out the engine faster. it will not filter out the smaller particles from the oil, causing accelerated wear.
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Exactly from the book (s)
Capacity:
2.7 L (2.9 US qt) when filter is not removed.
3.0 L (3.2 US qt) when filter is replaced. (3 US qt + 6 ounce)
3.7 L (3.9 US qt) when engine is completely dry.
Level: Between the upper and lower levels.
Your engine is overfilled and your crankshaft counterweights are whipping the oil into a froth and causing both your oil pressure and milky color issues.
At to the metal screen oil filter they are worthless at filtering out combustion byproducts and will only catch larger particles. If they were any good they would be used by the engine manf. Another one of them fancy fishing lures that were designed to do but one thing, catch fisherman. The only place we use metal screen filters on board ship is on non- combustion applications such as gearboxes or hydraulic systems.
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Thanks all will readjust to the above suggestions.
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Thanks all will readjust to the above suggestions.
Let us know the outcome!
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Kind of a side note about the screen mesh oil filter. I have the technical understanding to see how a paper mesh filter will trap finer particles. I also have the real life experience of putting almost 100,000 miles on an old XS 650 Yamaha without doing any engine work. That bike has no paper fliter, it only has a bronze screen (with a magnet) and a magnetic drain plug. The lack of a fine paper mesh filter never seemed to hurt the longevity of that engine, even though the ball bearing crank is supposed to be less forgiving than a plain hydro bearing crank. With the bike and the cars, if I miss changing the filter, it really does not worry me. If the oil is kept up to snuff, there is not much in the engine to plug the filter anyway.
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.... That bike has no paper filter, it only has a bronze screen (with a magnet) and a magnetic drain plug. The lack of a fine paper mesh filter never seemed to hurt the longevity of that engine, even though the ball bearing crank is supposed to be less forgiving than a plain hydro bearing crank.
Leo it is my understanding as a Mechanical Engineer that a Crankshaft supported by Ball Bearings is actually MORE forgiving to oil particulates than a Hydro Wedge or Plain Bearing Crank but the ball bearing are unable to support the HP produced by todays engines otherwise they would still be widely used today due to their lower overall friction.
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Okay here's the latest as of today.......... put 70 miles on the bike today without any issues. I took out about a cup of oil seeing you guys say I have to much in there. 3.7 liters almost 4 qts....
My thought is, near the end of the week issues will developed AGAIN then I'll change the oil again and put in the correct amount. 3+ liters
I'll keep you all posted, thanks for following.
Dave
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Goatmar - I would remove enough oil so that the level viewed thru the window is correct. If the oil still looks chocolaty after you've gone for a nice 30 minute ride (let the bike sit for a few minutes then check to make sure the oil level is correct) then I'd say something is amiss.
Temp gauge should also go 1/4 to 1/2 during this ride. If it stays on cold then I'd fix that prob first because the engine may not be getting warm enough to burn off any condensation.
There should be no need to change oil. If it is milky/chocolaty after this then changing oil isn't going to help, imho.
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We are not saying that you have too much oil in the bike; you have told us that you have too much oil in the bike. Not only have the recommendations come from long time Concors owners (my 01 was bought new) and MOB has owned a Concours for much longer than I have; these recommendations are culled directly from both Owner's & Service Manuals alike not pulled from thin air or some faulted interpation.
Leave you bike on it's center stand overnight and if in the morning the oil level is above the sight glass you still have too much oil. Once the oil level is above the glass you have absolutely no idea how much oil is in the bike other than TOO much. The oil level should never be above the upper line in the glass window which is around 3/4 of the glass. I'm not trying to sound overly rude but your problem is/was too much oil with no if ans or buts. Correct the oil level and be done with it!
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No malice detected Tony, I know what your saying. I'll take out some more, the window is covered. Will keep you all posted. I did take out the oil sensor and cleaned it up and put it back in.
Okay here's the level now, been sitting tonight on the center stand.
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T, It looks like I had it backward. I was told that even one nick in a ball bearing would eat the race until it destroyed all the bearings, so you had to be more careful with them. We have both seen some pretty nicked up journals actually last pretty long in use. It probably something to do with how much area the force is spread upon. I really never had any engine design training, so I just connected the only two dots I had. I better re evaluate the conclusion. Either way, that little old 40 horse 650 engine lasted a long time with no oil filter. I remember it only made about 5 PSIG of oil pressure, so it was really more of a glorified splash lube system.
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No malice detected Tony, I know what your saying. I'll take out some more, the window is covered. Will keep you all posted. I did take out the oil sensor and cleaned it up and put it back in.
Okay here's the level now, been sitting tonight on the center stand.
Great that looks perfect now.....
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T, It looks like I had it backward. I was told that even one nick in a ball bearing would eat the race until it destroyed all the bearings, so you had to be more careful with them. We have both seen some pretty nicked up journals actually last pretty long in use. It probably something to do with how much area the force is spread upon. I really never had any engine design training, so I just connected the only two dots I had. I better re evaluate the conclusion. Either way, that little old 40 horse 650 engine lasted a long time with no oil filter. I remember it only made about 5 PSIG of oil pressure, so it was really more of a glorified splash lube system.
My Ural runs on a ball bearing crank.... It has an oil pump that makes no more than a "few" pounds of oil pressure and I'm told that it's main propose is to pump oil through the oil filer; I've read on the Ural forum of an owner who put thousands of miles on his motor with a broken oil pump shaft. This engine is a lower RPM motor and it does use the crank to dip into the oil and splash oil where needed. There are even a pair of oil channels to run oil out to the cylinder heads to lube the valve train. And while a sliver of metal might be bad for a bearing race it needs to be harder than the race to cause real damage and screen will do a fine job of filtering out such particulates.
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Well after a few weeks, no problems....... I don't know what happened. Maybe cleaning out the sensor and the wire fixed it. :o I have no idea....... but at least there's no issue now.
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The oil level being correct is the cure to the problem.
Cleaning electrical connections is always a good idea - but was not the fix.
The oil in your last photo was at the correct level and LOOKED like CLEAN oil. :)
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Glad it looks your issue is cleared up Dave! Now to slightly hijack this thread, I would like to revisit the Scotts stainless steel filter question. I have one that came with my Vstrom, and it is on there now. Are there particles smaller than 35 microns that some paper filters will catch? That is the claimed filtering level by Scotts.
Superior Filtration:
This should be the last oil filter you will ever buy! Made from laser cut, medical grade, 304 stainless steel micronic filter cloth, this filter provides 200% more filter area in many cases. Most good paper filters will pass particles in the 90 to 95 micron range, and some tested, as much as 300 microns. Sand is about 125 microns and a white blood cell approximately 25 microns. Our stainless filter catches items down to 35 microns "absolute", which is about 3 times better than most good paper or brass filters. The pleat seam is welded, able to withstand up to 600 degrees in our filter, not glued, like paper filters.
Scott's website http://scottsonline.com/products.php?PartType=3 (http://scottsonline.com/products.php?PartType=3)
I'm just wondering if there is evidence that these things are really junk? They claim to filter about 3 times better than paper. If this is not true, I got no problem going back to disposables and selling the Scott.
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I'm just wondering if there is evidence that these things are really junk? They claim to filter about 3 times better than paper. If this is not true, I got no problem going back to disposables and selling the Scott.
For your perusal:
Lifted from the Amzoil site:
AMSOIL Ea® Oil Filters (EaO, Ea15K) have one of the best efficiency ratings in the automotive/light-truck market. Ea Oil Filters provide a filtering efficiency in accordance with industry standard ISO 4548-12 of 98.7 percent at 20 microns, while competitive filters demonstrate efficiencies as low as 51 percent.
Scoot's is good down to 35 microns. That would settle it for me.
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Not trying to default the Scott's Filter at all but from the point of view and opinion from an Mechanical Engineer is that oil only needs to be just so clean to fully protect an engine; anything beyond that is just hype and/or overkill... Too fine of a filtering media no matter if it be paper or metal screen can cause more harm than good by getting clogged up and causing the bypass to open up and circulate unfiltered oil through the engine. We clambered for how many years for someone to invent an adapter so that we could use a spin-on automotive type filter on these bikes to which Dan Berman did exactly that and that adapter is still sold today by Murph at Murphskits.com now we want to regress backward in time to a filter that in all likelihood is not any better for the engines longevity than a common paper or synthetic media that we must cleaned by hand.... No thanks I'll stick to my spin-on oil filters.....
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heheheheh
T, we all have our opinions on filters, and I for one am thanking Dan for the SPOOFAK, it was the best farkle to come along since the MOB Blind Melon Chittlin' Side Stand Extender.....
it's funny, we have been trying to get a 4 into 1 exhaust on this bike for almost 10 years, and the boys over on the C14 zone are going full circle, and speding big bucks to install the ZX dual system...go figure....just goes to show evy-body has diffr'nt thoughts...(I like my chopped down stock Electrolux muffler.... ;D
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heheheheh
T, we all have our opinions on filters, and I for one am thanking Dan for the SPOOFAK, it was the best farkle to come along since the MOB Blind Melon Chittlin' Side Stand Extender.....
it's funny, we have been trying to get a 4 into 1 exhaust on this bike for almost 10 years, and the boys over on the C14 zone are going full circle, and speding big bucks to install the ZX dual system...go figure....just goes to show evy-body has diffr'nt thoughts...(I like my chopped down stock Electrolux muffler.... ;D
I'm planning on chopping mine down to the DOT text and riveting it back together. You have any pics of yours?